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A discussion popped up from a thread in reddit, i was under the impression you arn't able to cast a strat on something not on the board but the other person made a case that there are examples of this, like genestealers strat.

Example: GK player casts Heed on NDK in reserve. Heed says "must be used when the game round starts", but its not on the board at start of game round, can you still cast it on him>

No, unless there are provisions in the stratagem itself to be able to use it on a unit that's not on the board.

 doctortom wrote:
No, unless there are provisions in the stratagem itself to be able to use it on a unit that's not on the board.

This is correct. The stratagem has to explicitly permit it.

The strat specifies who can be targeted with the strat. Every strat has very specific targeting instructions. If all the criteria is met then it can be used.

I see the no's from the responses. But is there a place in a rulebook or faq where this is stated?

Some stratagems can be used on models "as they are deployed" and would effect models that are deployed in deep strike reserve, such as Death Visions of Sanguiness from the Blood Angels Codex.

Most stratagems however cannot be used on models that are in reserve.

The stratagem will say what it can target when you use it. If it does not specifically mention that it can be used on a unit in reserves or upon deployment, then it cannot do so.

"If it does not specifically mention that it can be used on a unit in reserves or upon deployment, then it cannot do so."

Is there a source for that?

The main rules of the game is the source for that. If you want a page number, no I don't personally know what page number to look for since I don't have the book in front of me atm.


Generally speaking though it should be apparent.

If a stratagem said, for example : Target unit gets to shoot/fight twice at the end of the phase, and the unit was in deep strike they would not be eligible targets of said stratagem, as they cannot be chosen to shoot/fight with.

Well the target in that case has a clear target (a unit that's already fought)

Ive looked through and can't find what you're stating anywhere.

Which is why I'm asking if you are sure, is there a specific source for that?

What exactly are you trying to "allow/disallow"? Then I could be of more help.

I can't see anywhere in the rules that disallows it

 Eihnlazer wrote:
What exactly are you trying to "allow/disallow"? Then I could be of more help.

Says in OP - casting Heed on an NDK.

Theres a discussion on that here :https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/736082.page#9550478


I don't personally see anything disallowing the use of it.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
What exactly are you trying to "allow/disallow"? Then I could be of more help.

I am assuming 'Heed the Prognsticars'

Use this Stratagem at the start of your turn. Pick a Grey Knights Character and add 1 to its invulnerable saving throws until the start of your next turn

I would argue this stratagem is a yes as you just pick a GK character from your list. If you bring him on form reserves in your turn you have extra survivability until they can do something. If you don't bring them on you've wasted a stratagem.

There are other strats that improve an invulnerable save for a turn/phase and don't have to be activated at the start of a turn like this one does, so I don't think its really an issue anyway.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
There are other strats that improve an invulnerable save for a turn/phase and don't have to be activated at the start of a turn like this one does, so I don't think its really an issue anyway.

Not for GK there aren't. You could cast Sanctuary but prevents you from using it on something else and is limited to 3++

Sanctuary improves your profile save to a 3++ as max. And heed adds 1 to your roll, so it becomes a 2++. But that's for another thread

So then it would appear this is possible to cast? As I have yet to see any rule that says it can't

If the stratagem just says to pick a GK character with no other stipulations then that's all you have to do.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/744288.page

All that will now get repeated in this thread.

The rules don't say I can't dance a little jig and kiss the Blarney Stone to automatically pass morale checks!

The rules tell you what you CAN do, then adds restrictions on top of that. "It doesn't say I can't" isn't a valid argument.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules don't say I can't dance a little jig and kiss the Blarney Stone to automatically pass morale checks!

The rules tell you what you CAN do, then adds restrictions on top of that. "It doesn't say I can't" isn't a valid argument.

And the rules say I CAN pick a Grey Knights character. Is the GMNDK a Grey Knight's Character? He has both the Grey Knights faction keyword and the character keyword. He's a valid target. Show me what rule that counters this? I'm given permission in a permissive ruleset and have no other restrictions.

 Zarroc1733 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules don't say I can't dance a little jig and kiss the Blarney Stone to automatically pass morale checks!

The rules tell you what you CAN do, then adds restrictions on top of that. "It doesn't say I can't" isn't a valid argument.

And the rules say I CAN pick a Grey Knights character. Is the GMNDK a Grey Knight's Character? He has both the Grey Knights faction keyword and the character keyword. He's a valid target. Show me what rule that counters this? I'm given permission in a permissive ruleset and have no other restrictions.

Oh don't get me wrong, I think that's a somewhat valid interpretation, but it is by no means clear if they need to be on the battlefield to be a legal target or not. It's just your interpretation leads to silly things like buffing your character in a future game, or someone else's character in a different game. It's just that are a few unspoken axioms that the game requires to function (like that a dice needs to be labeled 1 to 6, or that "roll" means to determine a random value by physically throwing the dice in such a way that it would be improbable to pre-determine the outcome) and I think that needing to be on the battlefield to be selected mid-game is one of them.

Then again 8th edition rules leads to other "silly" situations (flamers being the supreme anti-aircraft weapon being one), so who really knows anymore!

The problem boils down to one basic question. Is a model that is not on the table "in play" or not?

Most people that I am familiar with say it is not in play. They base their stance on the fact that embarked units who are not on the table can not be effected by anything unless there is specific wording to the contrary. There is also the contention that since the models that are off the board can not be targeted they are not in play.

There are people, such as yourself, who say that the models are in play. As you point out the strategy says choose not target and the model fulfills all of the other requirements. As such it is a legitimate use of the strategy.

Until GW says which way is the correct interpretation there is no RAW solution to this quandry.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Zarroc1733 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules don't say I can't dance a little jig and kiss the Blarney Stone to automatically pass morale checks!

The rules tell you what you CAN do, then adds restrictions on top of that. "It doesn't say I can't" isn't a valid argument.

And the rules say I CAN pick a Grey Knights character. Is the GMNDK a Grey Knight's Character? He has both the Grey Knights faction keyword and the character keyword. He's a valid target. Show me what rule that counters this? I'm given permission in a permissive ruleset and have no other restrictions.

Oh don't get me wrong, I think that's a somewhat valid interpretation, but it is by no means clear if they need to be on the battlefield to be a legal target or not. It's just your interpretation leads to silly things like buffing your character in a future game, or someone else's character in a different game. It's just that are a few unspoken axioms that the game requires to function (like that a dice needs to be labeled 1 to 6, or that "roll" means to determine a random value by physically throwing the dice in such a way that it would be improbable to pre-determine the outcome) and I think that needing to be on the battlefield to be selected mid-game is one of them.

Then again 8th edition rules leads to other "silly" situations (flamers being the supreme anti-aircraft weapon being one), so who really knows anymore!

I would tend to agree but you have stratagems like death guard's cloud of flies that state the unit must be on the battlefield, which is imposing an extra restriction.

Do people still allow Ultramarines or IG players to roll before the first round to get CP back when CP is used to upgrade to a chapter master? Or to buy more relics? It seems like this is along those veins.

It says pick a character, it doesn't say pick a character currently setup on the table.

I allow it if they have the ability to. I believe it was cleared in a faq that with the one IG trait as soon as the warlord is on the board it can gain cp whenever the opponent uses cp even if it's during deployment. I've never heard that you can use it to get back cp from relics though.


Edit- I've also seen people upgrade a captain that's in reserves to a chapter master as it does just say pick a captain (I believe, don't play basic SM so I take it on good faith. I ow the codex though so I can check later).

FAQ now states you can't use stratagems on units not on the board so Heed on an NDK is a no go