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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 07:50:29
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Waaagh! Ork Warboss
Italy
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I think imperial knights are properly costed for what they do and how much they can soak firepower and melee hits. If they deserve a 100 points price decrease how much should ork nauts worth, considering that they're currently priced at 340-360 points and they're not even remotely as tough or as kill than knights? 200 points?
Imperial knights (and other big armored stuff) suffer too much from mortal wounds, and the only change I'd make it's something on that matter, maybe a 4+ that can't be bypassed by mortal wounds. Against mortal wounds inflicted by psykers at least.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 11:59:25
Subject: Re:Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot
Somerdale, NJ, USA
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StrayIight wrote:Massed fire from non-anti tank weapons could possibly be mitigated to some extent by reworking how Knight Void Shields operate. Honestly I haven't spent all that long thinking about it, but maybe we could have a situation where you get BOTH the armour save, and invuln in the case of Void shields? Anti-tank weapons would be largely unaffected as you're likely to mostly negate the armour save anyway, but it'd stop a good portion of massed, basic infantry fire stripping wounds quite so casually (and without the 'I'm completely invulnerable to small arms fire' situation of 7th).
As far as the degrading profile, I think we have to hope the codex streamlines things with regard to stratagem access. This is still a big problem for anyone running Forge World Knights, Renegade lists, or even just Imperial, non Mechanicum varieties.
...That, or you bring lists made up of Acherons, as it's main gun could care less how far down the degraded profile you've gone  (wouldn't exactly be an ideal force to field!)
This is a very well though point.
They are "void shields". Against shooting attacks, only, why not give Knights (and Knight sized models with "shields") both the 5++ Void shield save, and then if that is penetrated their normal armor save too? It might slow things down a little bit but would make them much hardier against ranged attacks. And due to their point cost it's not like there will be more then 4 in a normal 2000pt game.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 12:23:02
"The only problem with your genepool is that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty to prevent you from swimming."
"You either die a Morty, or you live long enough to see yourself become a Rick."
- 8k /// - 5k /// - 5k /// - 6k /// - 6k /// - 4k /// - 4k /// Cust - 3k |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 14:15:49
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Which is actually how a void shield should work. I'd like to see the Wraithknight get the classic Eldar shields which increase as it moves.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 15:35:26
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Fluff wise standard knights can't take a void shield as they don't have the ability to power it and their knight.
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 16:37:59
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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That was the whole point behind the All is Dust analogue. It makes the Knight stronger against small arms and anti-infantry weapons. Personally, I like the idea of incoming damage 1 fire getting a -1 to it's wound roll. Yeah, most things can wound anything. But the Ion shield has space magic technology which prevents it from dieing via 1000 papercuts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 17:20:57
Subject: Re:Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Hard-Wired Sentinel Pilot
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As a person who plays a Knight House as their primary army, the other Ion shield (apologies for referring to them as 'Void' shields - someone was quite correct in pointing out they are not), change I'd see as having potential is, quite honestly, going back to the old facing system from 7th.
Give me a 3++, but only in a 90 degree arc which I nominate at the start of a shooting phase. Hell, make positioning *mean* something to me (because I'm not going to get a cover bonus ever really), and if two Knights are next to each other, give them the save in a 180 degree arc if they remain in that formation.
Make 'rotate ion shields' a 2 or 3 CP stratagem that does just that - rotates the facing once to re-position.
It's on the *player* then to determine how quickly that Knight melts. The opponent can out play me, and out maneuver that shield. 1/3 of AT shots will still go through, so AT fire isn't negated entirely, but 1 in 3 is a lot less subject to hot/cold rolling than 2 in 3. We'd still be vulnerable to assault, which would further play in to the positioning meta both sides of the table.
And it's not like we aren't already familiar with that exact system, because any of us that were around last edition have used it. It was hardly a bone of contention at any point either.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 17:25:40
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver
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It's probably been done already but the math tend to prove that knights are tanky enough (24 Lascannons will kill 1 Knight or 3 Predators, the latter costing more points).
If anything, Knights are not killy enough (especially if you mix shooting and CC weapons).
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Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 17:37:32
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Damsel of the Lady
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Nym wrote:It's probably been done already but the math tend to prove that knights are tanky enough (24 Lascannons will kill 1 Knight or 3 Predators, the latter costing more points).
If anything, Knights are not killy enough (especially if you mix shooting and CC weapons).
The math is only for shooting though (and even though, 24 las for a 400-500 point model seems a bit light). Comparatively, you can take out a Knight much more easily and cheaply in melee.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 17:39:01
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Hard-Wired Sentinel Pilot
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Nym wrote:It's probably been done already but the math tend to prove that knights are tanky enough (24 Lascannons will kill 1 Knight or 3 Predators, the latter costing more points).
If anything, Knights are not killy enough (especially if you mix shooting and CC weapons).
I think it's correct to say Knights aren't killy enough - they do lack firepower for their points.
But the maths with regard to 'tankyness' are done in a vacuum it should be remembered. If you point a Shadowsword at my Knight, it's dead or irrelevant in one turn of shooting. That same Shadowsword (at least bare bones), is probably taking out a single Predator, so you have two thirds of the firepower from that block of points remaining.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 17:40:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 17:40:29
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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StrayIight wrote: Nym wrote:It's probably been done already but the math tend to prove that knights are tanky enough (24 Lascannons will kill 1 Knight or 3 Predators, the latter costing more points).
If anything, Knights are not killy enough (especially if you mix shooting and CC weapons).
I think it's correct to say Knight aren't killy enough - they do lack firepower for their points.
But the maths with regard to tankyness are done in a vacuum it should be remembered. If you point a Shadowsword at my Knight, it's dead or irrelevant in one turn of shooting. That same shadowsword (at least bare bones), is probably taking out a single Predator, so you have two thirds of the firepower from that block of points remaining.
This isn't a problem for just knights. It's a problem for Magnus, other Shadowswords, and anything above 300 points for a single model. It isn't usually useful to discuss the extremes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 17:42:22
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper
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Daedalus81 wrote:StrayIight wrote: Nym wrote:It's probably been done already but the math tend to prove that knights are tanky enough (24 Lascannons will kill 1 Knight or 3 Predators, the latter costing more points).
If anything, Knights are not killy enough (especially if you mix shooting and CC weapons).
I think it's correct to say Knight aren't killy enough - they do lack firepower for their points.
But the maths with regard to tankyness are done in a vacuum it should be remembered. If you point a Shadowsword at my Knight, it's dead or irrelevant in one turn of shooting. That same shadowsword (at least bare bones), is probably taking out a single Predator, so you have two thirds of the firepower from that block of points remaining.
This isn't a problem for just knights. It's a problem for Magnus, other Shadowswords, and anything above 300 points for a single model. It isn't usually useful to discuss the extremes.
Magnus can tank the shadow sword alot better then a knight with a 3+ inv and -1 to hit thought. Knights suck even compared to the other stuff with a cost around theirs.
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Ultramarine 6000 : Imperial Knights 1700 : Grey Knights 1000 : Ad mech 500 :Nids 4000 : Necrons 500 : Death watch 500 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 17:46:56
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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mew28 wrote:
Magnus can tank the shadow sword alot better then a knight with a 3+ inv and -1 to hit thought. Knights suck even compared to the other stuff with a cost around theirs.
Only if he gets first turn. And even then he'll weather the fire for a few turns, but spend most of his spells defensively. It's highly unlikely that he'd make his points back.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 17:53:25
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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mew28 wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:StrayIight wrote: Nym wrote:It's probably been done already but the math tend to prove that knights are tanky enough (24 Lascannons will kill 1 Knight or 3 Predators, the latter costing more points).
If anything, Knights are not killy enough (especially if you mix shooting and CC weapons).
I think it's correct to say Knight aren't killy enough - they do lack firepower for their points.
But the maths with regard to tankyness are done in a vacuum it should be remembered. If you point a Shadowsword at my Knight, it's dead or irrelevant in one turn of shooting. That same shadowsword (at least bare bones), is probably taking out a single Predator, so you have two thirds of the firepower from that block of points remaining.
This isn't a problem for just knights. It's a problem for Magnus, other Shadowswords, and anything above 300 points for a single model. It isn't usually useful to discuss the extremes.
Magnus can tank the shadow sword alot better then a knight with a 3+ inv and -1 to hit thought. Knights suck even compared to the other stuff with a cost around theirs.
As. Mentioned no, only if he goes first, Magnus is only T7 with a 4++ and 18 wounds. If you don't have powera up on him like the 3++ from Weaver's and glamor he is gonna be toasted turn one.
Magnus is hands down one of the weakest LoW in the game right now, simply because he is so easy to counter and paper thin.
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 17:56:14
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh
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The problem, to me, stems from the other side of the coin. Knights just don't do enough damage. They have the wounds of 2 or so tanks but don't lay out enough damage to equal those 2 tanks. And when you compare it to IG tanks with regimental special rules it gets worse.
At this point a person would be better off buying a vanguard detachment of IG tanks then he would buying a Lord of War detachment with a knight.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 17:58:55
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Leo_the_Rat wrote:The problem, to me, stems from the other side of the coin. Knights just don't do enough damage. They have the wounds of 2 or so tanks but don't lay out enough damage to equal those 2 tanks. And when you compare it to IG tanks with regimental special rules it gets worse.
At this point a person would be better off buying a vanguard detachment of IG tanks then he would buying a Lord of War detachment with a knight.
That's why I think they either need to get more fire power, or drop by 100 points.
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 18:02:34
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Backspacehacker wrote:Leo_the_Rat wrote:The problem, to me, stems from the other side of the coin. Knights just don't do enough damage. They have the wounds of 2 or so tanks but don't lay out enough damage to equal those 2 tanks. And when you compare it to IG tanks with regimental special rules it gets worse.
At this point a person would be better off buying a vanguard detachment of IG tanks then he would buying a Lord of War detachment with a knight.
That's why I think they either need to get more fire power, or drop by 100 points.
Or they admit they over buffed IG tanks and stop the race to the bottom that has been going on with cheap models and insane firepower per point. By adding some points onto them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 18:04:02
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Hard-Wired Sentinel Pilot
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Leo_the_Rat wrote:The problem, to me, stems from the other side of the coin. Knights just don't do enough damage. They have the wounds of 2 or so tanks but don't lay out enough damage to equal those 2 tanks. And when you compare it to IG tanks with regimental special rules it gets worse.
At this point a person would be better off buying a vanguard detachment of IG tanks then he would buying a Lord of War detachment with a knight.
Absolutely correct, you would be better off in almost all cases with the tanks.
I'm more inclined to look at not what each unit can do though, but what they can do for what we're paying in points.
Is there really any doubt at this stage, that there just isn't a system in place governing points costs? It seems that really units are just assigned a points value that seems reasonable to the Game Developer working on them at that time, and that they are then adjusted via knee-jerk reaction should they cause a ripple at a tournament. This isn't working!
Honestly, points values could do with being reworked from the ground up.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 18:04:11
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Ice_can wrote: Backspacehacker wrote:Leo_the_Rat wrote:The problem, to me, stems from the other side of the coin. Knights just don't do enough damage. They have the wounds of 2 or so tanks but don't lay out enough damage to equal those 2 tanks. And when you compare it to IG tanks with regimental special rules it gets worse.
At this point a person would be better off buying a vanguard detachment of IG tanks then he would buying a Lord of War detachment with a knight.
That's why I think they either need to get more fire power, or drop by 100 points.
Or they admit they over buffed IG tanks and stop the race to the bottom that has been going on with cheap models and insane firepower per point. By adding some points onto them.
Oh I agree that IG is undercosted for what they can do. I'm just talking with respects to knights.
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 18:11:01
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I can see that knights are in a bad place right now, I want to be clear I'm not trying to down play that.
However untill IG and dukari start playing reasonable points for their damage output they distort what feels playable in every other army.
Untill we have a new baseline for that it's hard to agree to buffing knights as it's either not far enough against guard or imperial soup or they rofl stomp any mono faction army off the table.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 18:12:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 18:31:56
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant
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I wish could find source so I'm not trying to peddle hearsay, but didn't someone say that all point costs were based on "feel" as opposed to a formula?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 18:35:45
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Fixture of Dakka
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There is only speculations on how points for 8th come about. Honestly we also dont know if they even want knights to be good. GW could want them to be lower tier for all we know.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 18:44:51
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Amishprn86 wrote:There is only speculations on how points for 8th come about. Honestly we also dont know if they even want knights to be good. GW could want them to be lower tier for all we know.
Got to prove those GK players weren't thrown under the bus.
I worry as there is new models to drive sales etc it will either be OP or welcome to vanilla marine territory. With maybe 1-2 gimic builds viable untill CA adds on points untill unplayable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/01 20:17:58
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos
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fraser1191 wrote:I wish could find source so I'm not trying to peddle hearsay, but didn't someone say that all point costs were based on "feel" as opposed to a formula?
That's taken from an interview from one of the rules writers from a couple years back, maybe even further. It may or may not still be true, but ranks up there with "We're a modelling company" and "The real hobby is collecting GW kits" on the list of years-old quotes people like to point to when bashing GW. As far as Knights go, who knows what they'll get in the codex honestly? Necrons went from bottom of the barrel in the Index to solidly competitive with a codex.
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2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/02 15:42:12
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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A Shadowsword used to be D6 shots, and the Falchion 2D6. With the Guard Codex they upped the Shadowsword to 3D3 shots, so logically with the next book containing the Falchion they should up it to 6D3 shots. At which point it is probably actually worth a thousand points, since just its main gun averages something like 50 unsaved sounds against a Baneblade sized target per turn, which is Titan-crippling territory.
Edit: typos.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/02 23:37:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/02 16:32:50
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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kombatwombat wrote:
A Shadowsword used to be D6 shots, and the Falchion 2D6. With the Guard Codex they upped the Shadowsword to 3D6 shots, so logically with the next book containing the Falchion they should up it to 6D6 shots. At which point it is probably actually worth a thousand points, since just its main gun averages something like 50 unsaved sounds against a Baneblade sized target per turn, which is Titan-crippling territory.
The Shadowsword is only 3d3 shots, not d6. So the Falchion should go to 6d3 shots, or 12, compared to the Shadowsword's 3d3, or 6.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/02 23:35:57
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Unit1126PLL wrote:kombatwombat wrote:
A Shadowsword used to be D6 shots, and the Falchion 2D6. With the Guard Codex they upped the Shadowsword to 3D6 shots, so logically with the next book containing the Falchion they should up it to 6D6 shots. At which point it is probably actually worth a thousand points, since just its main gun averages something like 50 unsaved sounds against a Baneblade sized target per turn, which is Titan-crippling territory.
The Shadowsword is only 3d3 shots, not d6. So the Falchion should go to 6d3 shots, or 12, compared to the Shadowsword's 3d3, or 6.
Whoops, typos. The number of wounds was correct though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/03 00:00:55
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh
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The relic rule confuses me. Can I take a falchion without taking another superheavy or must I take another superheavy? I'm confused because I've seen lists with "relic" units and no normal units of the same type and the rule says that "relics" can not out number non relic units.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/03 08:17:15
Subject: Are knight tier models too easy to kill?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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To me it seems quite simple. If you're opponent can afford to plow everything they have into one unit, you're probably taking that unit in too small a point sized game because you're not presenting enough target choice.
There will be some exceptions in both strategy and army make up. I took a Brass Scorpion for example (something I would consider a bit weaker than a Knight) in a 2k point 3-way game and it wrecked face because there wasn't just the BS to worry about for either opponent, yet i've taken it in a 1v1 game and all of a sudden it is the most obvious and threatening target.
You could even say that, due to scaleability, bigger point games just mean more lascannons to share around but then, all of a sudden, you have a nice balanced army and you've got some tought troops to throw their way that LCs aren't too hot against (let's say three units of Khorne Berserkers lead by Kharn, all in rhinos). That line up presents a very different threat. Focus on the Scorp, or the rhinos and then if you don't knock out the rhinos, deal with death itself.
Moral of the story, stop being a dick and trying to bring a huge f-off Lord of War to a skirmish and balance your army better.
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