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Also, you can only CP-reroll once per Psychic Phase. Farseers have something for this, and so does Biel-Tan for one psyker. Otherwise, most CWE powers have a very reasonable chance of failing even without DtW.

Eldar def took some hits. Your two mandatory seers cost you an additional 40. Reapers are still undercosted but will cost you an additional 7 per. Thinking that Ynnari is no longer the way to go. Just playing alitotoc and attempting to fire more shots by surviving better is going to work out best. Plus Now you don't need Yvraine Thats a spirit seer and 2 reapers right there. Also now it seems best to take your farseer on a bike with the 10 point increase to the foot seer. Or just take Eldrad.

Play a more defensive eldar lists. Crimson hunters / wave serpants / and probably 3 units of 5 reapers. Shining spear units for counter attack.

Hi. I play world eaters. I payed nearly 250USD for my Karybdis so finally, after 3 editions of having 1/4 or less of by berserkers make it to my opponent's line then barely scratch the paint, I could drop pod in berserkers and have around a 45% chance to charge in the first turn. Finally my opponents would know my pain of losing half their army turn one because my ASSAULT units could actually reach them unmolested.

Then chapter approved bumped up the price on the pod by 75 points. Hurts, but shaving points here and here wasn't too bad. But this "no deepy strikey turn one" thing is nonsense. I'm fairly certain that this one done to stop plasma scions and/or obliterators from mass dropping and blamming their opponent into oblivion. Most people know that Rhinos are overpriced gak. And there are very few cases where I could see fielding 3 land raiders mostly to cart a few squads of zerkers + characters to be a smart idea. I -couldn't- use psychic powers to guarantee my t1 charges. I'm honestly not sure what my new plan is going to be. Podding zerkers was my big way of getting into combat. Not sure how I'm ever going to get into combat again if this ham-fisted solution goes through in full effect.

And on my khorne daemons... well... as a primary force they are dead with this. Bloodletters are guardsmen whom in effect cant benefit from cover. Thirsters are lascannon magnets if left on the field. Bloodcrushers are slow and overpriced, and a set of stairs is all an opponent needs to completely negate the unit. I agree with whomever said that 8th edition's terrain rules are asinine. Am I expected to believe, even in the insanity that is wh40k, that Steve the guardsman can (move+advance) jump 4 stories straight up into the air, but my rage-fueled murder daemon riding a magical daemon rhino who phases into reality from a literal hell dimension, is incapable of using his magical daemon rhino's magical daemon hooves to flip off reality and just run up the walls to chase down Steve and sword things out?

/rant over I guess. There's yer salt.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Eldar def took some hits. Your two mandatory seers cost you an additional 40. Reapers are still undercosted but will cost you an additional 7 per. Thinking that Ynnari is no longer the way to go. Just playing alitotoc and attempting to fire more shots by surviving better is going to work out best. Plus Now you don't need Yvraine Thats a spirit seer and 2 reapers right there. Also now it seems best to take your farseer on a bike with the 10 point increase to the foot seer. Or just take Eldrad.

Play a more defensive eldar lists. Crimson hunters / wave serpants / and probably 3 units of 5 reapers. Shining spear units for counter attack.

I thought this too, running them alaitoc msu style to maximize tempest launchers and just run an autarch with them to re roll 1's, probably still hiding them in a wave serpent, it's not bad. Unfortunately nothing compares mathematically to getting word of the phoenix off on them, if you run them ynnari and get that power off it's better than any other variation of them.

Tempest needs a price hike.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just chekced FAQ - looks like it does work with cherub now. My marines have been on the shelf for a long time.

Honestly. That sounds pretty good. Though I am not exactly sure how they reached that answer - looks like an obvious mistake when you read the stratagem.

I think they're just throwing them a bone, because it didn't get used much otherwise.

Bharring wrote:
Tempest needs a price hike.

Tempest launchers are cheap but you can have a max of 3 per army now so it's not as bad.

(wrong thread, somehow)

"Some units have abilities that allow them to ignore damage suffered, and it is possible for some units to gain more than
one such ability. These abilities have stacked in an unintended way, and as a result we have changed their interaction
such that if a model has more than one such ability you will now only be able to use one of them against each lost
wound." -- GW

"One of the deadliest units available to the Iron Hands is the Venerable Dreadnought, who can combine The Flesh Is Weak with Unyielding Ancient to wade through even the heaviest of fire." -- Also GW

Thanks for screwing Iron Hands AGAIN.

edit: "Note that we have not applied this restriction to Genestealer Cults or abilities and Stratagems employed by armies such as Raven Guard – the opportunity to deploy units en masse after deployment is a central part of the design of these armies." So Raven Guard and tyranids get a bye because this goes against the theme of their army, but Flesh is Weak is specifically called out as something that 'stacked in an unintended way" with abilities that they specifically said elsewhere were intended to stack. Thanks again!

Bharring wrote:
(wrong thread, somehow)

I mean I don't think the majority of the faq is bad, smite rule is good, soup rule is good, I am ok with new CP points, etc...But I think it overlooked how the new DS disproportionately it affects negatively some already weak factions, and I think the genestealer exception is eventually going to be extended in some way if not completely, but it will be some gakky months for those factions before the official release kicks in.

 peteralmo wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Eldar def took some hits. Your two mandatory seers cost you an additional 40. Reapers are still undercosted but will cost you an additional 7 per. Thinking that Ynnari is no longer the way to go. Just playing alitotoc and attempting to fire more shots by surviving better is going to work out best. Plus Now you don't need Yvraine Thats a spirit seer and 2 reapers right there. Also now it seems best to take your farseer on a bike with the 10 point increase to the foot seer. Or just take Eldrad.

Play a more defensive eldar lists. Crimson hunters / wave serpants / and probably 3 units of 5 reapers. Shining spear units for counter attack.

I thought this too, running them alaitoc msu style to maximize tempest launchers and just run an autarch with them to re roll 1's, probably still hiding them in a wave serpent, it's not bad. Unfortunately nothing compares mathematically to getting word of the phoenix off on them, if you run them ynnari and get that power off it's better than any other variation of them.

It's at least reliable. WOP can fail. You know exactly what you are getting out of 3 5 man reapers every turn.

Other units to consider - Warwalkers with star cannons or bright lance (t6 with 5++ saves) are reasonable priced.
D cannons (only 75 points for a vindicator cannon)
Fire prisims (these have done really well for me)

Hivefleet Tim wrote:

"Some units have abilities that allow them to ignore damage suffered, and it is possible for some units to gain more than
one such ability. These abilities have stacked in an unintended way, and as a result we have changed their interaction
such that if a model has more than one such ability you will now only be able to use one of them against each lost
wound." -- GW

"One of the deadliest units available to the Iron Hands is the Venerable Dreadnought, who can combine The Flesh Is Weak with Unyielding Ancient to wade through even the heaviest of fire." -- Also GW

Thanks for screwing Iron Hands AGAIN.

I LOL'd

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just chekced FAQ - looks like it does work with cherub now. My marines have been on the shelf for a long time.

Honestly. That sounds pretty good. Though I am not exactly sure how they reached that answer - looks like an obvious mistake when you read the stratagem.

I think they're just throwing them a bone, because it didn't get used much otherwise.

Not complaining. That is a huge buff to a dev heavy bolter. The ability to toss out 2 smites for 1 CP and a 5 point upgrade is pretty boss. Plus it's pretty great for killing reapers.

I don't see the issue with a slight nerf to assault armies that Deep Strike turn 1. The fact that you were able to do that this edition in the first place was a huge improvement. And you can still simply place them, no scatter, and charge immediately, no matter what form of reserves you come in from or transport you disembark from.

Assault is still strong because shooting armies typically suck at CC, and sure you can run away, but that has it's own downsides. People are getting worked up over every little thing.

I, personally, like the FAQ. Spamming is brought down. If it affected you, then sorry, but I don't feel bad for you.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just chekced FAQ - looks like it does work with cherub now. My marines have been on the shelf for a long time.

Honestly. That sounds pretty good. Though I am not exactly sure how they reached that answer - looks like an obvious mistake when you read the stratagem.

I think they're just throwing them a bone, because it didn't get used much otherwise.

Not complaining. That is a huge buff to a dev heavy bolter. The ability to toss out 2 smites for 1 CP and a 5 point upgrade is pretty boss. Plus it's pretty great for killing reapers.

This is actually not a bad use of the cherub. This isn't an FAQ, that's a straight rule change.

They've been doing erratta in their FAQ for as long as I've seen their FAQs.

Let's put a bit of math in this discussion.

People are talking like reapers are shooting black holes into things, but Dark Reaper's damage output against T7 3+ is hardly stellar, no actually it's really bad and can hardly be considered AT fire:

59,13 points per wound inflicted, after the nerf. A manticore without orders or traits is 46,9, a las dev is 29,9 without auras.

You can put a lot of support into making it better, but it adds to the cost, and you are making better something that is bad at it's basis.

For example, let's give it guidance. which would bring it to a decent 50,68 points per wound. But it's not going to cost you less than 55 points which if added to the math brings it back to 58,88, and you are not even sure that the power goes off!

The best thing you can do is use WoP on it, which (if it goes off) makes it 41 points per wound inflicted. Good, but they will not last long, unless you again invest a lot of points into keeping them alive.

Before the nerf dark reapers were 46,9 without buffs, which means that they were manticore equivalent to start with! Being able to give around lots of support is as good as what you can buff, and in this case the base is BAD!

Dark reapers are now bad against tanks, and have always been bad against hordes. They mow down elite infantry sure, that is the correct role for them.

No gak Dark Reapers are bad against hordes. Devastators aren't good at it either though.

GW still haven't fixed the wording on the Assault Weapon rules so that they actually work by RAW, have they?

 Lord Damocles wrote:
GW still haven't fixed the wording on the Assault Weapon rules so that they actually work by RAW, have they?

Nor have they fixed the issue where players seem to be unable to understand the rule despite it being clear as day what it means.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
GW still haven't fixed the wording on the Assault Weapon rules so that they actually work by RAW, have they?

Nor have they fixed the issue where players seem to be unable to understand the rule despite it being clear as day what it means.

But what about a unit being destroyed if it enters a transport after turn 3?!?

 Lord Damocles wrote:
GW still haven't fixed the wording on the Assault Weapon rules so that they actually work by RAW, have they?

Roll a die... doesn't say roll a d6, so i need a 4+ i guess i'll just roll a D100. GW SUCKS AT ROOLZ

 Marmatag wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
GW still haven't fixed the wording on the Assault Weapon rules so that they actually work by RAW, have they?

Roll a die... doesn't say roll a d6, so i need a 4+ i guess i'll just roll a D100. GW SUCKS AT ROOLZ

Isn't it actually stated to what you're rolling on usually?

I think so, but when they say a 6-sided die, why isn't it one of those exponential dice you see from time to time? Not the artillery dice, but the ones that go up to 64? Hitting a 4+ on that thing would be a lot easier.

And why not use a ruler that considers inches to be a flat 3cm? Makes conversion easier. Does it specify the exact standard for an inch?

Rules can only define things down to a certain level, and then must rely on the reader's context to fill in the rest. Hell, it can't even be proven that addition is communative or associative - the two building blocks of math.

If you had to guess what would you say was the reason for this and the last FAQ? My first guess is that major tournaments are largely the reason. What else could it be.

 warhead01 wrote:
If you had to guess what would you say was the reason for this and the last FAQ? My first guess is that major tournaments are largely the reason. What else could it be.

Flyrant list with 11 BS units allowing you to DS 11 units power units gave GW a mind explosion. They figured out how to fix it with one of their rules (50% points starts on the table rule) then proceeded to triple nerf the tyrant and simultaneously nerf every deep strike unit in the game for no reason.

 warhead01 wrote:
If you had to guess what would you say was the reason for this and the last FAQ? My first guess is that major tournaments are largely the reason. What else could it be.

Someone at GW accidentally deleted the FAQ that they had made using all the tournament info and had to quickly put one together using the suggestions of a Tau player and an IG player who happened to be playing on the table just outside the office.

My previously SOB Avenger strike fighters now need to be taken in a separate IG detachment.

Spoletta wrote:
Let's put a bit of math in this discussion.

People are talking like reapers are shooting black holes into things, but Dark Reaper's damage output against T7 3+ is hardly stellar, no actually it's really bad and can hardly be considered AT fire:

59,13 points per wound inflicted, after the nerf. A manticore without orders or traits is 46,9, a las dev is 29,9 without auras.

You can put a lot of support into making it better, but it adds to the cost, and you are making better something that is bad at it's basis.

For example, let's give it guidance. which would bring it to a decent 50,68 points per wound. But it's not going to cost you less than 55 points which if added to the math brings it back to 58,88, and you are not even sure that the power goes off!

The best thing you can do is use WoP on it, which (if it goes off) makes it 41 points per wound inflicted. Good, but they will not last long, unless you again invest a lot of points into keeping them alive.

Before the nerf dark reapers were 46,9 without buffs, which means that they were manticore equivalent to start with! Being able to give around lots of support is as good as what you can buff, and in this case the base is BAD!

Dark reapers are now bad against tanks, and have always been bad against hordes. They mow down elite infantry sure, that is the correct role for them.

I don't think your math is right on the reapers. They have a 3+ s8 -2ap 3 wound weapon

http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/

vs t7 3+ you get 2/3 and then 2/3 and then 2/3 x 3 or about .9 wound per reaper unbuffed which is more like 41 points per wound after "nerf", WoP brings that down to around 20 right (shooting twice for the same cost should halve the points per wound).

41 ppw is okay, but you combine that with their stellar performance against anything t5 with more than 1 wound and immunity to negatives to hit and they are still a problematic unit. The additional synergies of being hard to hit, having great strats and psychic powers can push that 41 ppw inflicted down to the low teens.

That same las cannon dev after it moved, shooting at something with a -1 to hit (a lot of targets) goes from that 29.9 to 58.5 while the reaper is still shooting at 41. Just plain moving or shooting at something with a native -1 brings them pretty close to even (41.57 vs 38.78) and that's with the reaper being miles more efficient at most other targets (suffers vs t8 for sure but that's about it)

There is no way to protect yourself from the reapers, they remove an entire armies defensive bonus (ravenguard might as well not have a chapter tactic) and are pretty much guaranteed at least one round of shooting at their ideal target due to high mobility and strats. With really good shooting screens (-2 to hit rangers) the removal of the ability to t1 deepstrike those screens with multiple units pretty much gives reapers 2 rounds of unmolested shooting.

If they would have adjusted the 3+ to hit only working if they stand still or the 3 damage to d3 or reduced max size to 5 or the secondary fire mode to 3 shots 1d or s5 no ap and made the tempest launcher actually cost a reasonable amount of points I think the "reaper problem" would have really been addressed. Instead slapping a small increase on price (they should cost 47 points IMHO) was lazy. I hope I'm proven wrong but I don't think it is going to stop the armies that were already fielding 10-30 of them (10 ynarri, 2x5 would be how I would do it)

 Xenomancers wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
If you had to guess what would you say was the reason for this and the last FAQ? My first guess is that major tournaments are largely the reason. What else could it be.

Flyrant list with 11 BS units allowing you to DS 11 units power units gave GW a mind explosion. They figured out how to fix it with one of their rules (50% points starts on the table rule) then proceeded to triple nerf the tyrant and simultaneously nerf every deep strike unit in the game for no reason.

They balanced around Adepticon, which is a garbage format that's used like twice a year.