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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Bad news it seems:

Not that Killshot is gonna happen anymore as you needed at minimum 4 Predators to make sure you could do it once.

Well, I was more referencing the first sentence - that those books are getting no FAQ.

Even if GK can deep strike 1 unit with GOI- all that would do is make you lose faster - you have to swarm in this game to get anything dead.

These questions are why its important that this is a Beta Rule. They're looking for things that interact poorly with it and Gate of Infinity is just the kind of ability that the rule currently isn't entirely clear how it interacts with given other things it specifically allows.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Bad news it seems:

Wow. The hate. So no updates for DA, BA & GK?

I have emailed them this question about GoI and the beta rules so we will see iif/when we get an answer, but the more people asking will probably increase the odds of an answer

Freezerassasin wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Freezerassasin wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Just in case you didn't notice we also can't shunt or GoI in the first turn with the new FAQ.

That is not how I read the FAQ. It calls out units that have arrived on the player's first turn. Both GoI and the shunt would be used by units that were deployed normally, meaning they arrived before the first turn. I see no inherent conflict here, but some confirmation would be good.

Read the text of GoI and Shunt. You remove the unit from the battlefield and then it arrives again, thus arriving on the first turn. In addition, GW has previously FAQ'd that things which effect units arriving from reinforcement, such as Auspex Scan's intercept, can target GoI arrivals.

Both of the abilities say setup, not arrive. This is the same wording in the clarification of Auspex Scan. I don't have a SM codex to check the wording of the entire strategem, but to say that units arrive again is not the wording of those abilities. (In the epub codex anyway)

I'd say the difference between arriving and setting up is splitting hairs.

There's some tournament organizers who may rule to allow it, but I think most people will think about how this conforms with other rules changes in the FAQ which all seem to be aimed at limiting the impact of an alpha strike.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
They can still ally easily into an Imperium army. All you have to do is make a pure GK detachment of them.

Assuming you don't play with TFG. As usual GW's usual sloppy writing results in rule that could easily be read as every detachment needs to share keyword(imperium not usable). So GW's FAQ needs a FAQ.

Not being able to viably deep strike turn 1 is so bonkers to me.

I simply don't get it. At all. I expected the OPPOSITE of this, where there would be a Night Fighting rule to help take some steam out of the power that gunlines already have.

People have been using deep strike as a survival tool more than a guaranteed attack on turn 1.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Bad news it seems:

Not that Killshot is gonna happen anymore as you needed at minimum 4 Predators to make sure you could do it once.

Wait you need 4 preds to do kill shot now?

He's saying one will die before you can use them.

Bharring wrote:
He's saying one will die before you can use them.

Oh pftt I have never run into that issue yet.

Besides, soaking much of the enemy's firepower into on Pred that would kill something else instead, without spending any CP, is a great use of Killshot.

Bharring wrote:
Besides, soaking much of the enemy's firepower into on Pred that would kill something else instead, without spending any CP, is a great use of Killshot.

It's NOT hard to kill a Predator in one turn.

Bharring wrote:
Besides, soaking much of the enemy's firepower into on Pred that would kill something else instead, without spending any CP, is a great use of Killshot.

Maybe from the Eldar side of the board.

...

Bharring wrote:
Besides, soaking much of the enemy's firepower into on Pred that would kill something else instead, without spending any CP, is a great use of Killshot.

Since when is destruction of one predator matter of soaking "much of the enemy's firepower"? Well except against orks. Others fire one predator off the board by looking evilly.

For most armies, it takes a greater proportion of their army to drop 1 Pred than the proportion of the army it takes to take one pred. By a reasonably large margin. Preds aren't glass-canon.

Bharring wrote:
For most armies, it takes a greater proportion of their army to drop 1 Pred than the proportion of the army it takes to take one pred. By a reasonably large margin. Preds aren't glass-canon.

Actually, they kinda are. T7 W11 3+ sucks in 8th ed.

Dark Reaper:
1x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3)x2 = 1x16/27

So 1-rounding a Pred takes 27/16 x 11 Reapers. Or ~18 Reapers.

18 Reapers x 35 ppm is 630 points to one-round that Pred.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Freezerassasin wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Freezerassasin wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Just in case you didn't notice we also can't shunt or GoI in the first turn with the new FAQ.

That is not how I read the FAQ. It calls out units that have arrived on the player's first turn. Both GoI and the shunt would be used by units that were deployed normally, meaning they arrived before the first turn. I see no inherent conflict here, but some confirmation would be good.

Read the text of GoI and Shunt. You remove the unit from the battlefield and then it arrives again, thus arriving on the first turn. In addition, GW has previously FAQ'd that things which effect units arriving from reinforcement, such as Auspex Scan's intercept, can target GoI arrivals.

Both of the abilities say setup, not arrive. This is the same wording in the clarification of Auspex Scan. I don't have a SM codex to check the wording of the entire strategem, but to say that units arrive again is not the wording of those abilities. (In the epub codex anyway)

I'd say the difference between arriving and setting up is splitting hairs.

There's some tournament organizers who may rule to allow it, but I think most people will think about how this conforms with other rules changes in the FAQ which all seem to be aimed at limiting the impact of an alpha strike.

Honestly I read it the same way as he said. Shunting is unaffected by this. What is affected are units that were deployed as reinforcements and then coming in at a later turn. It even specifies units that are deployed as reserves in the rule if I remember correctly.

Therefore, as I pointed out in the general thread, shunt should be fine along with armies that have speed in general. It makes Slaanesh more viable in the Chaos of Daemons codex. I view GKs as benefiting from the same kind of thing, suddenly they're one of the armies that have units that can get in someones face super quickly.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Bad news it seems:

Not that Killshot is gonna happen anymore as you needed at minimum 4 Predators to make sure you could do it once.

Yeah; I'm not sure what they were thinking.

I feel like the FAQ does nothing to address actual balance problems, and is just a knee-jerk reaction to the Flyrants thing. While I don't like it, just doing 1/detach on strong HQ's would have been a better solution.

They also seem to have just decided to write GK off as a loss; I'm kind of surprised they even remember to exempt them from the smite rule because their smites are so bad. I don't think Grey Knights are any more officially dead than they were before, but that's just because they already run afoul of so many kind of bad rules what's another hit on the head.

Bharring wrote:
Dark Reaper:
1x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3)x2 = 1x16/27

So 1-rounding a Pred takes 27/16 x 11 Reapers. Or ~18 Reapers.

18 Reapers x 35 ppm is 630 points to one-round that Pred.

Their gun is flat 3 damage isn't it?

Bharring wrote:

10 Reapers x 35 ppm is 350 points to one-round that Pred.

Previously, 10 Reapers was not a surprising number of Reapers to see. I guess we'll see how it goes now, though I think they're still very much worth taking myself.

Honestly, I think the deep strike change is going to go a long way toward making these hypothetical predators last longer, at least until deep strike plasma gets replaced with lascannon spam.

Yeah, misremembered as a 2.

That makes it 420 points of Reapers - one of the scarier glass-cannons out there - just to kill one Pred in one round. Preds are a lot fewer points.

Bharring wrote:
Dark Reaper:
1x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3)x2 = 1x16/27

So 1-rounding a Pred takes 27/16 x 11 Reapers. Or ~18 Reapers.

18 Reapers x 35 ppm is 630 points to one-round that Pred.

Some missed math in there.

Reapers do 3 damage. So it's 13.5 Reapers or 476 points for 14. To kill a 150-190 point unit seems acceptable.

I'm not saying Reapers vs Preds are fine. I'm just saying 476 points of Reapers is not an insignificant part of the enemy list.

Oh, then we agree. 2.5x something's cost to kill it is even generally considered not good enough across the entire game. (from the shooter's perspective that is)

Yeah, I was surprised by how "right" the points were when they got cleaned up. Loving the nerf to Reapers - just right.

Would you agree with this point:
Part of the value of Killshot, when you bring 3 Preds, is that the opponent may need to prioritize killing one of the Preds over something else. So if you lose a Pred and not something more important on top of 1, Killshot helped you out.

?

The solution to not deep striking on the first turn is deep strike on second. Simples. It makes sense that players want to have at least one turn before they get hammered in assault.

Bharring wrote:
Yeah, I was surprised by how "right" the points were when they got cleaned up. Loving the nerf to Reapers - just right.

Would you agree with this point:
Part of the value of Killshot, when you bring 3 Preds, is that the opponent may need to prioritize killing one of the Preds over something else. So if you lose a Pred and not something more important on top of 1, Killshot helped you out.

?

Not really.

Predators aren't cheap enough. You'd rather lose other things over your Predators.