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quentra wrote:

Ordana wrote:What sort of list do you see beating Eldar now that its top contenders got killed. Flyrants, Poxwalker horde (Faq+Agents of Vect)

I think we still haven't seen the potential of DE displayed in a tourney environment. Their codex is strong and full of unexplored synergies, and none of the FAQ stuff really affected them. Now that you can't spam $TEXAS DR and/or SS, IG gunlines are suddenly a lot more potent. Tau will give eldar forces a run for their money. CWE definitely isn't GK-tier, but it is far from accurate to say that they gained anything from the FAQs. I do think CWE are still strong, but as people have rightly pointed out, Guard, Tau, and other 'stay in one place and shoot you from across the board' armies are suddenly far, far more attractive than most of the DS-reliant strategies.

I haven't looked to much at Tau but aren't they, DE shooting and Guard heavily effected by Allaitoc's -1 to hit?
That is how Eldar pushed out Guard to begin with.

I don't know how to feel about this change at all, its a good and a bad thing

On one hand it makes turn one a little less important and , (in some cases) will alow choice units to react and do something, in my group of players Alpha-striking was a thing like 10 man combi-plasma slaaneesh terminators with sorcerer and chaos lord is probably a good example of what will be fixed stuff like that is and can be devastating 1st turn especially with cacophony, but our meta adjusted who doesn't bring chaff these days there the best thing at alpha strike denial but the close combat isn't the issue its the shooting 1st turn shooting is more devastating than anything else. Especially in "casual" (use thew term loosely lol) groups when you know who your opponent is.

MalfunctBot wrote:
All these people saying this change is good because it nerfs Imperial Guard Plasma and Scion spam, that's one bloody unit (that's ALREADY been limited to 3 in this very FAQ), don't you think that, you know, nerfing the specific unit in particular is a better idea than nerfing EVERYONE at the same time? The shooting phase wasn't nerfed because Dark Reapers were OP, and the Psychic Phase wasn't nerfed because Farseers and Tyrants were OP, why should Deepstrike be nerfed because 1 or 2 units are able to abuse it?

I know that if this change goes through as is I'm never playing a non-gunline Tau army ever again, which I'm sure will be very fun for my opponent, and I'm also sure Grey Knights and Terminator users everywhere will be absolutely thrilled to have their already overcosted units further rammed into the dirt.

It wasn't just those units. I agree with people saying that nerfing T1 Deepstrike Alpha is a good thing. The issue is that, imo, GW did not look at why there was so much movement towards DS by the community. Stuff simply dies to fast and without DS to protect assault units and T1 charges limiting the shooting from gunlines the game will be more unbalanced towards shooting.

The beta rules disproportionately hit assault while leaving shooting (mostly) intact. Both needed to be toned in tandem to allow for more tactical play.

Likely earlier 8th ed builds will come back maybe razor spam since the re exempt from rule of 3.
DS plasma and plasma spam likely to return.
Guard remain a/the top tier tool box almost untouched by the FAQ, surprised that no other army has managed to remain at that level and avoided almost all meaning full nerfs for the edition so far.

Base Shooting for sure did get better.

Honestly, better cover would help fix that more than many other things atm.

quentra wrote:
I think we still haven't seen the potential of DE displayed in a tourney environment. Their codex is strong and full of unexplored synergies, and none of the FAQ stuff really affected them.

You're joking, right?

 Ordana wrote:

quentra wrote:

Ordana wrote:What sort of list do you see beating Eldar now that its top contenders got killed. Flyrants, Poxwalker horde (Faq+Agents of Vect)

I think we still haven't seen the potential of DE displayed in a tourney environment. Their codex is strong and full of unexplored synergies, and none of the FAQ stuff really affected them. Now that you can't spam $TEXAS DR and/or SS, IG gunlines are suddenly a lot more potent. Tau will give eldar forces a run for their money. CWE definitely isn't GK-tier, but it is far from accurate to say that they gained anything from the FAQs. I do think CWE are still strong, but as people have rightly pointed out, Guard, Tau, and other 'stay in one place and shoot you from across the board' armies are suddenly far, far more attractive than most of the DS-reliant strategies.

I haven't looked to much at Tau but aren't they, DE shooting and Guard heavily effected by Allaitoc's -1 to hit?
That is how Eldar pushed out Guard to begin with.

Alaitoc trait gives CWE survivability, but the trait itself wasn't enough to push IG out of the meta. (You never see people claiming RG is 'too strong' against guard, for example, even if the traits are nearly identical.) It was the trait + ridiculously powerful long-range shooting in spammed dark reapers, and even then the reapers really needed to be soulbursted in order to really get to peak effectiveness. So -1 to hit is still a retardedly strong trait (and honestly one that I think shouldn't have been printed, as it just 'feels' bad), but IG can now outweigh it with weight of dice considering the deepstriking, soulbursting reaperspam tactic that eldar relied on is illegal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

quentra wrote:
I think we still haven't seen the potential of DE displayed in a tourney environment. Their codex is strong and full of unexplored synergies, and none of the FAQ stuff really affected them.

You're joking, right?

Do you have an argument to make?

So, I play Tau. Which means I have the shootiest of the shooty armies.

There are kind of a lot of ways to close the gap? I have had to deal with them every game I play against someone who has played more than 1 game against Tau before. 1st turn charges just happen, and anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something.

It's easier with DS, but it's not even remotely difficult without. So, yeah you can have screens but thats points then I can't spend on a gunline that needs to put out every point of firepower it can to support itself to begin with.

And a lot of this that I'm reading is also ignoring the restriction on spam. It's kind of obvious that GW is pushing more army diversity. An obvious solution here, is to make yourself an army that benefits from range and/or resilience on turn one, and deepstrike 50% in turn 2. You Also can cull screening units so that when you deepstrike on 2 you don't have to deal with them. I mean put stuff on the board you know can take a beating, things with -1 or -2 to hit, with a FNP, and/or an invul.

And then there is also, just... hey it's a change, we've kind of got to adapt?

quentra wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

quentra wrote:

Ordana wrote:What sort of list do you see beating Eldar now that its top contenders got killed. Flyrants, Poxwalker horde (Faq+Agents of Vect)

I think we still haven't seen the potential of DE displayed in a tourney environment. Their codex is strong and full of unexplored synergies, and none of the FAQ stuff really affected them. Now that you can't spam $TEXAS DR and/or SS, IG gunlines are suddenly a lot more potent. Tau will give eldar forces a run for their money. CWE definitely isn't GK-tier, but it is far from accurate to say that they gained anything from the FAQs. I do think CWE are still strong, but as people have rightly pointed out, Guard, Tau, and other 'stay in one place and shoot you from across the board' armies are suddenly far, far more attractive than most of the DS-reliant strategies.

I haven't looked to much at Tau but aren't they, DE shooting and Guard heavily effected by Allaitoc's -1 to hit?
That is how Eldar pushed out Guard to begin with.

Alaitoc trait gives CWE survivability, but the trait itself wasn't enough to push IG out of the meta. (You never see people claiming RG is 'too strong' against guard, for example, even if the traits are nearly identical.) It was the trait + ridiculously powerful long-range shooting in spammed dark reapers, and even then the reapers really needed to be soulbursted in order to really get to peak effectiveness. So -1 to hit is still a retardedly strong trait (and honestly one that I think shouldn't have been printed, as it just 'feels' bad), but IG can now outweigh it with weight of dice considering the deepstriking, soulbursting reaperspam tactic that eldar relied on is illegal.

For simplicty just taking the LVO winning list. it had 3x3 reapers and 1x8. losing 3 Reapers there is not going to make or break the matchup.
They were never deepstriking them so that change does nothing.
Yeah you can't Deepstrike the Shining Spears but they have the movement to start on the table and still charge whatever they want thanks to Quicken.

Well you are dismissing too easily the nerfs to Eldar.

First of all he has to drop some more reapers due to the increased cost on them and on the support. Then you have to take into account that Word of Phoenix became unreliable.

Also, shining spears can start on the board and charge but can be shot turn 1 and have less total movement to jump over screens.

quentra wrote:
Do you have an argument to make?

Well, first off, I'd question the idea that DE have a lot of unexplored synergies. If anything, they're an army of anti-synergies. You've got HQ auras that don't work with most of their faction, you've got HQ auras that are redundant, you've got shooty HQ auras that don't work when in transports, you've got HQs that have no mobility alongside transports with no additional slots, you've got Obsessions that don't work with relics for no reason whatsoever, etc. etc.

Regarding the FAQ, you've got stuff like Fire and Fade not being useable after deep striking, you've got their 3-Patrol Raiding Force being invalidated by the increase in CPs from Battalions (which now gets more CP with fewer required units). And at tournaments, they're now stuck with the 0-3 rule. This is an army where one subfaction has a single HQ choice. They literally need to take a special character just to take 2 Battalions. Not to mention the Court of the Archon, where you can't even take 4 of the same model because the unit was (for some stupid reason) split into individual models.

44" movement before charging gets you across any screen you need to.

The biggest nerf to the list is Word of Phoenix. not the Spam, deepstrike changes.

 Ordana wrote:

quentra wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

quentra wrote:

Ordana wrote:What sort of list do you see beating Eldar now that its top contenders got killed. Flyrants, Poxwalker horde (Faq+Agents of Vect)

I think we still haven't seen the potential of DE displayed in a tourney environment. Their codex is strong and full of unexplored synergies, and none of the FAQ stuff really affected them. Now that you can't spam $TEXAS DR and/or SS, IG gunlines are suddenly a lot more potent. Tau will give eldar forces a run for their money. CWE definitely isn't GK-tier, but it is far from accurate to say that they gained anything from the FAQs. I do think CWE are still strong, but as people have rightly pointed out, Guard, Tau, and other 'stay in one place and shoot you from across the board' armies are suddenly far, far more attractive than most of the DS-reliant strategies.

I haven't looked to much at Tau but aren't they, DE shooting and Guard heavily effected by Allaitoc's -1 to hit?
That is how Eldar pushed out Guard to begin with.

Alaitoc trait gives CWE survivability, but the trait itself wasn't enough to push IG out of the meta. (You never see people claiming RG is 'too strong' against guard, for example, even if the traits are nearly identical.) It was the trait + ridiculously powerful long-range shooting in spammed dark reapers, and even then the reapers really needed to be soulbursted in order to really get to peak effectiveness. So -1 to hit is still a retardedly strong trait (and honestly one that I think shouldn't have been printed, as it just 'feels' bad), but IG can now outweigh it with weight of dice considering the deepstriking, soulbursting reaperspam tactic that eldar relied on is illegal.

For simplicty just taking the LVO winning list. it had 3x3 reapers and 1x8. losing 3 Reapers there is not going to make or break the matchup.
They were never deepstriking them so that change does nothing.
Yeah you can't Deepstrike the Shining Spears but they have the movement to start on the table and still charge whatever they want thanks to Quicken.

I definitely think that spears and reapers are still undercosted. However, the LVO list relied very heavily on Ynnari synergy (which has been killed thanks to Battle-brothers), as well as being very heavily favored in an ITC format. You didn't see eldar domination at Adepticon, for example. Spears and reapers are still very strong units, but I would say that losing the reaper unit in the Ynnari detachment (and the ynnari detachment as a whole) is crippling for that strategy specifically, not to mention that that list was specifically tailored to ITC, and did not fare as well in other tourneys.

 vipoid wrote:

quentra wrote:
Do you have an argument to make?

Well, first off, I'd question the idea that DE have a lot of unexplored synergies. If anything, they're an army of anti-synergies. You've got HQ auras that don't work with most of their faction, you've got HQ auras that are redundant, you've got shooty HQ auras that don't work when in transports, you've got HQs that have no mobility alongside transports with no additional slots, you've got Obsessions that don't work with relics for no reason whatsoever, etc. etc.

Regarding the FAQ, you've got stuff like Fire and Fade not being useable after deep striking, you've got their 3-Patrol Raiding Force being invalidated by the increase in CPs from Battalions (which now gets more CP with fewer required units). And at tournaments, they're now stuck with the 0-3 rule. This is an army where one subfaction has a single HQ choice. They literally need to take a special character just to take 2 Battalions. Not to mention the Court of the Archon, where you can't even take 4 of the same model because the unit was (for some stupid reason) split into individual models.

People that dont play DE dont understand. They dont understand we are not CWE or Imperial where everything fits together very nicely.

DE doesnt fit together, we are 3 different armies in 1 codex that shares 3 units (Scourges, Incubi, Mandrakes) and a few stratagems and 3.

quentra wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
For simplicty just taking the LVO winning list. it had 3x3 reapers and 1x8. losing 3 Reapers there is not going to make or break the matchup.
They were never deepstriking them so that change does nothing.
Yeah you can't Deepstrike the Shining Spears but they have the movement to start on the table and still charge whatever they want thanks to Quicken.

I definitely think that spears and reapers are still undercosted. However, the LVO list relied very heavily on Ynnari synergy (which has been killed thanks to Battle-brothers), as well as being very heavily favored in an ITC format. You didn't see eldar domination at Adepticon, for example. Spears and reapers are still very strong units, but I would say that losing the reaper unit in the Ynnari detachment (and the ynnari detachment as a whole) is crippling for that strategy specifically, not to mention that that list was specifically tailored to ITC, and did not fare as well in other tourneys.

Why is the Ynnari synergy or detachment gone? The only non Craftworld units were 2x min DE warriors which can be replaced (or removed and dropping the battalion to a smaller detachment) and the Yvraine which is ignored for the Battle Brothers rule.
We indeed did not see the Eldar dominate at Adepticon but I primarily attribute that to the Flyrant lists running around in force which are a natural counter. ICT secondaries kept Flyrants in check at LVO.

 Spreelock wrote:
After all the nerfs at conscripts? After all the points increase at manticore and wyvern? Direct shooting can also be avoided covering behind terrain.. I just played a tournament with 10 indirect firing tanks and I was placed last with 3/60points.

Direct shooting can be avoided by terrain? Not if its a basalisk or a manticore - you can't hide from them anywhere....

 Amishprn86 wrote:

People that dont play DE dont understand. They dont understand we are not CWE or Imperial where everything fits together very nicely.

DE doesnt fit together, we are 3 different armies in 1 codex that shares 3 units (Scourges, Incubi, Mandrakes) and a few stratagems and 3.

The thing is though, even the components of those individual subfactions don't fit together well.

I can get behind the Succubus' aura not working on Kabalite or Coven units (bit weird that the Archon's aura doesn't work when he's supposed to be the one in overall charge, but whatever). Fine.

But then why can't the Archon buff units in his own transport? Why do 2/3 of the units he allows to reroll 1s already have their own reroll ability that makes his completely redundant? Why do some Obsessions not with with artefacts for no apparent reason? Why are HQs allowed no mobility options, and actually screw over their own units by riding with them (9 Wyches lose out on 2 Wych weapons, 9 Kabalites lose out on 1 Special and 1 Heavy weapon etc.)? Why does each subfaction have just a single HQ choice (SCs notwithstanding) that's completely inflexible? Why is there no support whatsoever for Mandrakes or Scourges (and basically none for Incubi, since Drazhar is useless)?

Yeah, I get it, DE are like 3 different armies. But that doesn't excuse those mini-armies being horribly designed and overflowing with anti-synergy.

ThePorcupine wrote:
I think anything over like 10 or 12 command points is overkill. Especially for guard who already recycle CP. They will never use up that many. It's wasted resources.

Guard should then be spending 3 points on two extra relics. Any 3 out of 4 best relics in a codex. Kurov's Aquila (should have been the free relic), Laurels of Command, Relic of Lost Cadia, Auto Reliquary (only for Scions).

In their current form, battle brothers from the beta rules is actually quite interesting and makes it harder to soup cherry pick list. Which was a problem cause soup made many armies WAY too synergetic.

The tactical reserves one on the other hand is a bit too much. Especially for Melee based or melee focused armies, this basically cripples them when facing a shooting based army. You might as well pack your models if your opponent is running a gun-line, cause you aint gonna get close to it.

This will never address units that can 1st turn charge without a deep strike mechanics, cause those ones usually go with a high mobility with other rules that make the charge a cakewalk. And deep strike shooting armies still see no difference with these changes, in fact scion are probably even more powerful because you can destroy the opponents shield units and such in the first turn, and the second turn brings in the shooting bombs all over again. Shooting deep strike is actually more devastating with these rules, assault deep strike just got dumpster fired because of this rule.

Most melee based armies either have:

a) high mobility

b) deep strike

in order to get their units into fighting position, each have their own advantages but in a game where shooting is king, melee is severely lacking.

Most people forget that for shooting you get another "last" shooting in before the close combat, and if the unit isn't wiped out, you have something called "fall back" which makes any melee unit hillariously easy to kite and destroy.

"Ohh. I lost my one unit of screen units to that scary melee monster, ohh well. Time to aim all my big guns at him and deal with him in a single turn, while using the rest of my armies large amount of guns to destroy his other units. Hurduh, I knows tactics"

This is not the way this should be addressed, if anything this is the complete wrong way to address the issue.

Deep strike is easily mitigated if you actually know how to properly use the map and such to ensure the maximum amount of potential from all your units (deep strike denial, screening units, running blockers for your big guns, using terrain)

What people are soo stupid about is the fact that they dont think of these things, get stomped by a alpha striking army and then complain about it because "IT'S TOO OVERPOWERED. NERF THIS!!"

There is a saying i can say right now. And i will say it as many times as need be to get the point across

Get Gud

Learn about your armies units, what their strengths and weaknesses are, think of how you can use them to their maximum potential, Look at your STRATAGEMS (Cause some people dont actually look at them!), look at the battlefield, If you have deployment then pick a deployment that would work very well for you (ohh. I have a long range gunline? lets go Hammer and Anvil!) Play to the objective of the mission, not to the other player.

In other words

Get Gud

I wouldn't mind the deepstrike changes so much if the turn 3 limit was lifted or moved up. Why is it so over powered to deepstrike turn 4-6 when the opponent has moved and died, and made some room?

MalfunctBot wrote:
All these people saying this change is good because it nerfs Imperial Guard Plasma and Scion spam, that's one bloody unit (that's ALREADY been limited to 3 in this very FAQ), don't you think that, you know, nerfing the specific unit in particular is a better idea than nerfing EVERYONE at the same time? The shooting phase wasn't nerfed because Dark Reapers were OP, and the Psychic Phase wasn't nerfed because Farseers and Tyrants were OP, why should Deepstrike be nerfed because 1 or 2 units are able to abuse it?

I know that if this change goes through as is I'm never playing a non-gunline Tau army ever again, which I'm sure will be very fun for my opponent, and I'm also sure Grey Knights and Terminator users everywhere will be absolutely thrilled to have their already overcosted units further rammed into the dirt.

You think Scions were the only ones abusing first turn drop rules for shooting?

Ever had 3 squads of Obliterators drop down and destroy your day?

Probably haven't had 20 Guardians step out and assassinate a Doomed target, either.

Plasma Terminators?

You can watch it all over Battle Reports on YouTube and just about any tournament report... Deep Strike was used almost exclusively for 1 or 2 things, and frequently both:

1) Assassinate with shorter ranged shooting (Plasma, Melta, etc.)
2) Hold units off the table to save them from losing the 1st turn roll-off

Deep Striking expressly to get into close combat on turn 1 has something like a 44% chance to succeed, and a large portion of the time it was against garbage anyways. These armies were hurt heavily by screens, as they would be forced to charge a screen and then get shot off the table afterwards unless they could consolidate into another target (well, they'd still get shot off the table after the withdraw).

In any case, 44% is not something you make a list around. But 3 blobs of Obliterators precision deep striking with Veterans and Endless Cacophony at their disposal... that may do.

With the amount of wailing on this thread, I'd assume greater than 50% of the population plays Blood Angels, as they seem the melee army most affected by this FAQ... everyone else was already on hopes and prayers.

Coming in on turn 2 is also not a terrible thing when you think about the game outside of a glass cannon or 1 turn fish meet barrel scenario. It keeps pressure on your opponent to NOT spread out, and gives you the opportunity to blast away a screen to put pressure on an exposure before your elite forces hit the ground.

Is it a nerf? Yes. Is it the end of the world? Hardly.

 gbghg wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Mortars are also a lot harder to spam, though technically you can still bring 9 units of them across the codex and FW index.

You don't even need to rely on that, infantry squads can take mortars as an embedded heavy weapons team and since infantry squads are a troop choice there's no limit on how many you can take.

HWT cost per mortar : 11
IS cost per mortar : 45

Not to mention people were using spammed HWT mortars to shore up their deficiencies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:


The beta rules disproportionately hit assault while leaving shooting (mostly) intact. Both needed to be toned in tandem to allow for more tactical play.

That is an unquantified statement. IG perhaps, sure. But when you're mid range high powered guns are unable to reach what they want to shoot turn 1 you're either waiting or transitioning to units who typically have fewer strong weapons per point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Adeticon top 16:

BA - melee DS
Tyranids - shooting DS (arguably melee, too)
Tyranids - shooting DS
Tyranids - shooting DS
Chaos Soup - no DS
Chaos Soup - no DS
Dark Angels - no DS, but fast flyers which are functionally similar
Tyranids - shooting DS / super heavies backed by flyrants
DG - no DS, but two fire raptors
Imperium - melee DS (BA)
Tyranids - shooting DS
Aedlari - potential shooting DS

Not the most fair comparison, but i'm certain if we had access to the other lists you'd see way more shooting instead of melee deepstrike.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


HWT cost per mortar : 11
IS cost per mortar : 45

They technically already paid the 40 points for the squad adding 5 points for a mortar isn't a big deal. Honestly I was thinking a 50 point IS with a Mortar and grenade launcher seems sweet.

While not as strong or having the extended range Guard can replace a 33 point mortar HWT with Grenade launcher special weapon Team for 39 points. its still 3d6 however only S3 frag but it is flexible enough to have 3 S6 Krak doing D3 wounds. not a bad trade off.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


HWT cost per mortar : 11
IS cost per mortar : 45

They technically already paid the 40 points for the squad adding 5 points for a mortar isn't a big deal. Honestly I was thinking a 50 point IS with a Mortar and grenade launcher seems sweet.

While not as strong or having the extended range Guard can replace a 33 point mortar HWT with Grenade launcher special weapon Team for 39 points. its still 3d6 however only S3 frag but it is flexible enough to have 3 S6 Krak doing D3 wounds. not a bad trade off.

No? Grenade Launchers are crap, they're not remotely worth the points, considering that their fire output is matched by Guardsmen under First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire.

The point of the mortars is the indirect fire property, allowing the otherwise incredibly fragile squad to hide away behind cover and keep shooting. If they're embedded in guard squads, either your 40 points to guys aren't shooting, or they targetable and you might as well have taken a harder-hitting heavy weapon.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Yeah, I’ve been struggling to see why people think melee alpha strikes are such a prevalent and terrible thing. There are very few armies that can do them, and those that can do because it’s the only way to survive. And it’s also fluffy.

Close combat is way more powerful than shooting. Shooting has to actually kill the target, which takes about 4 times it's cost. Close quarters just has to get there, you don't even need melee weapons.

I am not sure what you mean. If a unit goes charging into another unit they have a chance of taking losses through Overwatch. And IF they get there and can't really hurt the targeted unit(s) those units get to swing back for another chance at causing losses. AND if the attacked unit still can't doing anything about the assaulting unit, they can fall back most likely leaving the assaulting unit out in the open and exposed to near by supporting units be attacked. If you aren't supporting your good units (i.e. have infantry near tanks, bubblewrap or no, and other infantry supporting other squads) you deserve to lose that unit as they are the weak link (just like in Chess) and your opponent picked up on that. At the same time you can't have your support too close to allow multi-charges unless that support can function in close combat or you don't mind falling back with all affected units. Finally, if you painted yourself into a corner and can't fall back, once again; you made a tactical error that good opponent will make you pay for.

I don't think I've literally ever even cared about overwatch. It can be assumed to cause negligible damage. In addition, the target's backswing can be assumed to be negligible, since the units you want to be in melee with can't fight worth a damn anyway.

In addition, the unit doing the assaulting doesn't strictly need to survive. Just getting there locks off the enemy unit from shooting unless it can fall back and shoot or FLY, so you've both disabled that tank and drawn the fire of a fair amount of the enemy force. Whether they relieve their unit bu falling back and shooting you or by counter-charging with another unit, you still locked out the charged unit.

In addition, melee generally delivers better stats/point at the drawback you have to get close, and most melee units will total whatever they get in with in a single turn, so relieving locked units with counterchargers is generally more efficient than falling back and shooting them, with the drawback that they can be avoided and they might be useless is your valuable units don't end up in melee.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Close combat is way more powerful than shooting. Shooting has to actually kill the target, which takes about 4 times it's cost. Close quarters just has to get there, you don't even need melee weapons.

ummm....no.

There is a penalty to falling back from Close combat, but, Eldar can ignore this, flying units ignore this, Ultra Smurfs ignore this and im sure a lot more stuff ignores or limits the downside of this. Furthermore, if you have a chaff (meat shield) unit that gets assaulted all you have to do is fall back, and then blast the ever loving hell out of whatever was attacking it. It is literally one of the most basic strategies in the game. Plus, fun fact, to get into CC you have to get across the board and assault the enemy, if you aren't deep striking that means at the very least you will be subjected to 1 full round of shooting and 1 round of overwatch. My 180pts of Boyz marching up the table will get decimated before they get into CC, which is why I usually bring closer to 720-900pts worth of boyz. That works not because CC armies are better then shooting armies, but because I am relying on target overload to get into CC and hopefully kill or tie up as many of your units as possible. I have no ability to take down flyers or heavy armored targets like Land Raiders or knights, I rely on my boyz to tie them up for the entire game if possible. Shooting armies on the other hand can take down whatever they want and can start inflicting casualties turn 1.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Close combat is way more powerful than shooting. Shooting has to actually kill the target, which takes about 4 times it's cost. Close quarters just has to get there, you don't even need melee weapons.

ummm....no.

There is a penalty to falling back from Close combat, but, Eldar can ignore this, flying units ignore this, Ultra Smurfs ignore this and im sure a lot more stuff ignores or limits the downside of this. Furthermore, if you have a chaff (meat shield) unit that gets assaulted all you have to do is fall back, and then blast the ever loving hell out of whatever was attacking it. It is literally one of the most basic strategies in the game. Plus, fun fact, to get into CC you have to get across the board and assault the enemy, if you aren't deep striking that means at the very least you will be subjected to 1 full round of shooting and 1 round of overwatch. My 180pts of Boyz marching up the table will get decimated before they get into CC, which is why I usually bring closer to 720-900pts worth of boyz. That works not because CC armies are better then shooting armies, but because I am relying on target overload to get into CC and hopefully kill or tie up as many of your units as possible. I have no ability to take down flyers or heavy armored targets like Land Raiders or knights, I rely on my boyz to tie them up for the entire game if possible. Shooting armies on the other hand can take down whatever they want and can start inflicting casualties turn 1.

Again, a "full round of overwatch" is basically harmless, Only Tau from Tau really matter.

I think you're missing my point. Flyers and units that can fall back and still retain efficiency are the only real concern, since once you get there you've shut them off for a turn.

I can run Seraphim up the board 24" and jump the guardsmen since I fly to lock out multiple tanks on the first turn. You don't have to have close combat weapons, in fact, you're better if you don't, because that means you didn't pay any points extra. You just have to be a fast warm body. I can also clear away the screen with storm bolters and send my tanks through into melee if I'm really concerned and want to shut out more than the Seraphim can. Any units I catch, unless they specifically ignore it, won't be shooting or charging on their own turn, and if they don't fall back I can to make them a target.


In addition, fast units moving up the board have to be dealt with on turn 1, so they're also drawing fire away from other, more expensive, harder-hitting units.

quentra wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

quentra wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

quentra wrote:

Ordana wrote:What sort of list do you see beating Eldar now that its top contenders got killed. Flyrants, Poxwalker horde (Faq+Agents of Vect)

I think we still haven't seen the potential of DE displayed in a tourney environment. Their codex is strong and full of unexplored synergies, and none of the FAQ stuff really affected them. Now that you can't spam $TEXAS DR and/or SS, IG gunlines are suddenly a lot more potent. Tau will give eldar forces a run for their money. CWE definitely isn't GK-tier, but it is far from accurate to say that they gained anything from the FAQs. I do think CWE are still strong, but as people have rightly pointed out, Guard, Tau, and other 'stay in one place and shoot you from across the board' armies are suddenly far, far more attractive than most of the DS-reliant strategies.

I haven't looked to much at Tau but aren't they, DE shooting and Guard heavily effected by Allaitoc's -1 to hit?
That is how Eldar pushed out Guard to begin with.

Alaitoc trait gives CWE survivability, but the trait itself wasn't enough to push IG out of the meta. (You never see people claiming RG is 'too strong' against guard, for example, even if the traits are nearly identical.) It was the trait + ridiculously powerful long-range shooting in spammed dark reapers, and even then the reapers really needed to be soulbursted in order to really get to peak effectiveness. So -1 to hit is still a retardedly strong trait (and honestly one that I think shouldn't have been printed, as it just 'feels' bad), but IG can now outweigh it with weight of dice considering the deepstriking, soulbursting reaperspam tactic that eldar relied on is illegal.

For simplicty just taking the LVO winning list. it had 3x3 reapers and 1x8. losing 3 Reapers there is not going to make or break the matchup.
They were never deepstriking them so that change does nothing.
Yeah you can't Deepstrike the Shining Spears but they have the movement to start on the table and still charge whatever they want thanks to Quicken.

I definitely think that spears and reapers are still undercosted. However, the LVO list relied very heavily on Ynnari synergy (which has been killed thanks to Battle-brothers), as well as being very heavily favored in an ITC format. You didn't see eldar domination at Adepticon, for example. Spears and reapers are still very strong units, but I would say that losing the reaper unit in the Ynnari detachment (and the ynnari detachment as a whole) is crippling for that strategy specifically, not to mention that that list was specifically tailored to ITC, and did not fare as well in other tourneys.

It didn't rely on the synergy - it just gave them a few neat tricks - the lists relied on spears and reapers - spears are still strong as ever. Expect more spears and less reapers now.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Close combat is way more powerful than shooting. Shooting has to actually kill the target, which takes about 4 times it's cost. Close quarters just has to get there, you don't even need melee weapons.

ummm....no.

There is a penalty to falling back from Close combat, but, Eldar can ignore this, flying units ignore this, Ultra Smurfs ignore this and im sure a lot more stuff ignores or limits the downside of this. Furthermore, if you have a chaff (meat shield) unit that gets assaulted all you have to do is fall back, and then blast the ever loving hell out of whatever was attacking it. It is literally one of the most basic strategies in the game. Plus, fun fact, to get into CC you have to get across the board and assault the enemy, if you aren't deep striking that means at the very least you will be subjected to 1 full round of shooting and 1 round of overwatch. My 180pts of Boyz marching up the table will get decimated before they get into CC, which is why I usually bring closer to 720-900pts worth of boyz. That works not because CC armies are better then shooting armies, but because I am relying on target overload to get into CC and hopefully kill or tie up as many of your units as possible. I have no ability to take down flyers or heavy armored targets like Land Raiders or knights, I rely on my boyz to tie them up for the entire game if possible. Shooting armies on the other hand can take down whatever they want and can start inflicting casualties turn 1.

Again, a "full round of overwatch" is basically harmless, Only Tau from Tau really matter.

I think you're missing my point. Flyers and units that can fall back and still retain efficiency are the only real concern, since once you get there you've shut them off for a turn.

I can run Seraphim up the board 24" and jump the guardsmen since I fly to lock out multiple tanks on the first turn. You don't have to have close combat weapons, in fact, you're better if you don't, because that means you didn't pay any points extra. You just have to be a fast warm body. I can also clear away the screen with storm bolters and send my tanks through into melee if I'm really concerned and want to shut out more than the Seraphim can. Any units I catch, unless they specifically ignore it, won't be shooting or charging on their own turn, and if they don't fall back I can to make them a target.

Except as mentioned, entire armies ignore the penalty to fall back, some units and powers allow them to ignore it and you still have to deal with the screen, which I am sorry, will not die to a handful of Stormbolter shots. I dare you to remove my 30 grot squad with stormbolters. They are basically fearless with my herder near by and Orkz are sure as hell not the only army with competent Screening units.

And for overwatch, its a free shooting round at less BS. Do I get a free CC round when you run away? or when you shoot at me?

SemperMortis wrote:


Except as mentioned, entire armies ignore the penalty to fall back, some units and powers allow them to ignore it and you still have to deal with the screen, which I am sorry, will not die to a handful of Stormbolter shots. I dare you to remove my 30 grot squad with stormbolters. They are basically fearless with my herder near by and Orkz are sure as hell not the only army with competent Screening units.

That's what snipers and sniper spells are for - 3 or 4 wound support characters.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The point of the mortars is the indirect fire property

Thanks, I would have never figured it out.

I use grenade launchers and they work just fine I have never said wow that 5 points was worthless.