Spoletta wrote:
A full additional fight phase worth of punches could be too punishing, but if it was hitting on 6's then it could be a reasonable suggestion.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
The issue is at the cost involved it should be super rare, and it is not. Even if it only happens like 25% of games that is a non-starter for tournament play.

Monolith is 381 all in. That's 2 Las Preds or 11 Dark Reapers. There is a 6% chance the Preds can ace it in one turn and just about 0% for Dark Reapers.



The most likely damage outcomes are between 6 and 12.



If they've taken 3 Las Preds then it's 27%. So, if your opponent has outspent your monolith on anti-tank by 50% and it also happens to be LC only then, yes, it could die turn 1. Magnus is 19% under the same conditions.

It’s worth pointing out that you’re talking about a minute chance (1/36) of that happening, and an even smaller chance that it’s going to happen at a critical junction like that. It’s sad to to say it but sometimes your dice just hate you and it can spoil a game for you. That doesn’t mean a mechanic is bad because one time you got royally and unfairly screwed by it.

You know what’s massively more common? Failing an easy charge and losing the game because of it. I lost count of how many times that happened to me in 7th, and I have to say that the ability to reroll one of the dice for a CP is the only thing that saves the swingyness of a 2D6” charge length from being a travesty in my eyes. And yes, sometimes you will roll snake eyes, reroll one of the dice and come up with another 1, at which point you just have to accept that the dice gods are just deliberately dicking around with you.

Having to take a 2D6 ‘can your unit actually do some damage this turn or is it just going to get shot off the board’ test is one of the myriad hurdles assault units face. Being able to charge off a Turn 1 Deep Strike removed enough of these hurdles that assault armies became competitive with gunlines where they hadn’t been for, what, 4 editions? They weren’t dominant but they were at least viable. Now I’ll agree that massed Turn 1 charging was obnoxious to play against, which is why I’m coming around to being in favour of the beta rule despite it kicking my beloved Terminators when they’re already down and bleeding. It does, however, drag us back to the previous decade’s worth of the game where assault armies were at a massive disadvantage to shooting ones (barring those with some kind of gimmick that bends the game to make them viable).

I think we could definitely redress the balance post-beta ruling by mitigating some of the hurdles assault armies face. The most obvious is unlimited Overwatch - you hit on 6s in Overwatch because it’s meant to represent a last minute desperate barely-aimed snap shot in the nick of time. A model that can shoot once in its own shooting phase suddenly gets a high enough rate of fire to shoot five times in the split second before it’s charged? Cap units to shooting once in the Charge Phase and you help assault armies a little bit (and, incidentally, fix the Y’vahra).

Another hurdle is that, thanks to the Fall Back mechanic, assault units typically get to make their attacks once in the game. This means that units that can’t frontload apocalyptic amounts of damage the turn they charge become useless, and prevents cinematic, desperate drawn-out hand-to-hand struggles over a vital objective. Further, it’s incredibly immersion-breaking to have the enemy just stroll away mid-brawl. If you turn your back on, say, Khârn the Betrayer mid-fight, you’re going to cop an axe where the sun don’t shine. I agree with another poster - if a unit Falls Back, a unit in combat with it should be able to attack that unit as if it’s the Fight Phase, but not Pile In or Consolidate. Obviously if you limit Overwatch to once per phase you’d limit this to once per phase too.

Little changes to help redress the balance without completely altering the game. If it proves not to be enough you go a step further - say, if a unit shoots in the Charge Phase, it can’t shoot in its own following Shooting Phase. It gives you a tactical choice of whether to make a weaker out-of-sequence attack or take the chance that your opponent will fail the charge and get your full strength attack the next turn.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Fly is pretty damn rare for front line units blocking melee assaults.

Fly is pretty rare, except for Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar. But lets also not forget the point here is we are talking about units/armies that ignore or minimize the downside to falling back from CC. Ultramarines ignore it and that 1 unit loses 1BS for 1 turn...that is it. Eldar also have a strat that allows them to retreat a unit from CC without consequence, A number of armies have abilities which allow you to teleport out of CC like Greyknights. And then to make the point even more obvious, the only major offending gun line army that CAN NOT do this is IG, but they don't need to. They can just screen there good stuff with cheap, throwaway infantry units. Ohhh no! you had to lose 1 round of shooting from your 10 man Guardsman unit? The horror. I guess the other 5 will just have to blast the offending CC unit off the table while your long ranged guns keep pounding away.

CC was already hard enough to get into with GOOD units and keep them tied up without this nerf, saying otherwise is a lie.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Transports are not out. They really, really aren't. People didn't use them, because T1 deepstrike was readily available. That and the perception that they are hugely overcosted, which they are, but not by a margin that changes lists in any meaningful way.

My army had the ability to turn 1 deepstrike Kommandos, which are 50% overpriced boyz....that is about it. So why didn't I bring transports for my army? Ohh that is right, because they are AWFUL and a complete waste of my points. 82pts for a Trukk with T6 4+ save and the ability to transport 12 models. Or I could double down and get a Battlewagon which will run 160+ and can transport 20 models. So the trukk literally costs MORE then the boys its transporting and the Battlewagon is SIGNIFICANTLY more then the 20 boys its transporting. neither can shoot worth a damn, but the battlewagon can at least take a deffrolla which makes it not useless after delivering its payload, of course now its even more expensive. In other words, Yes they are "overcosted" and by a very "Meaningful Way". So.....Yeah, Transports right now are UTTERLY useless.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Bring cheap, durable melee that can tie up the majority of the front line. THEN when the line is broken deepstrike the glass cannon.

No such CC unit exists. And lets break down your suggestion here. Bring up cheap durable melee (which doesn't exist) and tie up the majority of the frontline, this takes 2 turns to do , Turn 1 you move and advance and then turn 2 you move, advance and attempt to charge, so Really you are saying, spend 2 turns getting shot off the table and then deepstrike my other CC units.....basically to where my "Cheap durable" melee unit is because Screens are a thing and I have yet to run across an opponent who doesn't factor in a 9' deepstrike .

None of your suggestions are feasible, realistic or work. you invent units that don't exist to prove a point that you then forget takes several turns to accomplish where as before we were doing the exact same thing with turn 1 deepstrike AND STILL weren't winning tournaments.



So this brings me to another point, why did GW Nerf turn 1 deepstrike. The answer is simple, not because of Turn 1 deepstriking MELEE armies, nope, the offending units that needed a nerf were Turn 1 Deep striking Shooting units like Tau Commanders and the plethora of other units that were showing up and shooting OVER a screening unit instead of having to mulch through it in CC.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Okay, so it is easy enough to kill a monolith. Now my lychguard are stuck on my side of the table (I have to use Dimensional Corridor to move them because neither the Eternity Gate nor Emergency Invasion Beam works on turn one) and are going to have to weather 2-3 turns of incoming fire without doing anything at all to affect the board during that time because they're slow without some way to teleport around. If we include the Deceiver that I included in the list to make the Monolith usable in the first place then that's 906 points that have been effectively taken out of the game by cracking that one brick. That's a "lost on turn one" situation, Daedalus.

It'd be the same deal with rhinos or any other transport: if you go second, you're going to have to walk, and that means you lost the game.

SemperMortis wrote:

Fly is pretty rare, except for Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar. But lets also not forget the point here is we are talking about units/armies that ignore or minimize the downside to falling back from CC. Ultramarines ignore it and that 1 unit loses 1BS for 1 turn...that is it. Eldar also have a strat that allows them to retreat a unit from CC without consequence, A number of armies have abilities which allow you to teleport out of CC like Greyknights. And then to make the point even more obvious, the only major offending gun line army that CAN NOT do this is IG, but they don't need to. They can just screen there good stuff with cheap, throwaway infantry units. Ohhh no! you had to lose 1 round of shooting from your 10 man Guardsman unit? The horror. I guess the other 5 will just have to blast the offending CC unit off the table while your long ranged guns keep pounding away.

CC was already hard enough to get into with GOOD units and keep them tied up without this nerf, saying otherwise is a lie.

My army had the ability to turn 1 deepstrike Kommandos, which are 50% overpriced boyz....that is about it. So why didn't I bring transports for my army? Ohh that is right, because they are AWFUL and a complete waste of my points. 82pts for a Trukk with T6 4+ save and the ability to transport 12 models. Or I could double down and get a Battlewagon which will run 160+ and can transport 20 models. So the trukk literally costs MORE then the boys its transporting and the Battlewagon is SIGNIFICANTLY more then the 20 boys its transporting. neither can shoot worth a damn, but the battlewagon can at least take a deffrolla which makes it not useless after delivering its payload, of course now its even more expensive. In other words, Yes they are "overcosted" and by a very "Meaningful Way". So.....Yeah, Transports right now are UTTERLY useless.

No such CC unit exists. And lets break down your suggestion here. Bring up cheap durable melee (which doesn't exist) and tie up the majority of the frontline, this takes 2 turns to do , Turn 1 you move and advance and then turn 2 you move, advance and attempt to charge, so Really you are saying, spend 2 turns getting shot off the table and then deepstrike my other CC units.....basically to where my "Cheap durable" melee unit is because Screens are a thing and I have yet to run across an opponent who doesn't factor in a 9' deepstrike .

None of your suggestions are feasible, realistic or work. you invent units that don't exist to prove a point that you then forget takes several turns to accomplish where as before we were doing the exact same thing with turn 1 deepstrike AND STILL weren't winning tournaments.

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
A full additional fight phase worth of punches could be too punishing, but if it was hitting on 6's then it could be a reasonable suggestion.

and leaving your CC unit exposed to the entire armies shooting phase is not punishing? Did you forget that said CC unit just walked itself up the board for a minimum of 2 full shooting phases to even get into assault? the fact that you even get the chance to walk out of CC is ridiculous.

Breng77 wrote:


Or you could take a naked shadow sword for 404 points and kill the monolith 50% of the time for 23 points more.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:


Or you could take a naked shadow sword for 404 points and kill the monolith 50% of the time for 23 points more.

Yep, if you ever face a shadowsword you'll probably have a bad time with high cost models.

The funny thing is anything with quantum shielding all by invalidates the volcano cannon.

 peteralmo wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:


Or you could take a naked shadow sword for 404 points and kill the monolith 50% of the time for 23 points more.

Yep, if you ever face a shadowsword you'll probably have a bad time with high cost models.

The funny thing is anything with quantum shielding all by invalidates the volcano cannon.

Quantum Shielding does have excellent internal synergy that way. Probably the easiest statistical way to drop a monolith is cheap mass over-charged plasma from scions? Some one will check my math I'm sure.

 gbghg wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
A full additional fight phase worth of punches could be too punishing, but if it was hitting on 6's then it could be a reasonable suggestion.

and leaving your CC unit exposed to the entire armies shooting phase is not punishing? Did you forget that said CC unit just walked itself up the board for a minimum of 2 full shooting phases to even get into assault? the fact that you even get the chance to walk out of CC is ridiculous.

God forbid we utilize the revolutionary tactic of falling back from a fight we can't win. No, falling back and being exposed to attacks of opportunity seems fair. If the risk/reward of melee is skewed right now, perhaps the focus should be on decreasing the risk rather than bumping up the reward so melee units just become immune to shooting once they come into contact with another unit. That's just as awful a balance outcome as what we have now.

Spoletta wrote:

 peteralmo wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:


Or you could take a naked shadow sword for 404 points and kill the monolith 50% of the time for 23 points more.

Yep, if you ever face a shadowsword you'll probably have a bad time with high cost models.

The funny thing is anything with quantum shielding all by invalidates the volcano cannon.

Quantum Shielding does have excellent internal synergy that way. Probably the easiest statistical way to drop a monolith is cheap mass over-charged plasma from scions? Some one will check my math I'm sure.

Plasma scions? Real men use DA plasma inceptors (much higer damage per point and range)!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:


Or you could take a naked shadow sword for 404 points and kill the monolith 50% of the time for 23 points more.

Yep, if you ever face a shadowsword you'll probably have a bad time with high cost models.

The funny thing is anything with quantum shielding all by invalidates the volcano cannon.

Breng77 wrote:


That it does but because units like the shadow sword, exist taking really expensive transports or models is often not a good decision for winning at tournaments. Necrons have it better because you don’t decide what is in each transport. Transports fail if you have one or 2 important units in a few transports, they work well if you have multiple similarly treatening units in multiple transports. Because at that point some make it. But 1 Landraider full of vanguard vets, among a bunch of rhinos full of tactical marines is bad. Multiple landraiders is really too many points. For crons you are probably better using ghost arks or flyers as transports than monoliths. As for Ork trucks the issue is how many models they carry 12 Boyz just is not enough to get things done. If other Ork units get buffed in their codex I think trucks will work ok for those units.

StarHunter25 wrote:
Plasma scions who get their regiment bonus just melt things. Plasma and melta, big and small variants, need to switch point costs

StarHunter25 wrote:
Plasma scions who get their regiment bonus just melt things. Plasma and melta, big and small variants, need to switch point costs

 peteralmo wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
Plasma scions who get their regiment bonus just melt things. Plasma and melta, big and small variants, need to switch point costs

Yeah I just noticed that a BS 3+ Scion can buy a melta gun for 12 points, where a plasma gun is 13?! Crazy.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Okay, so it is easy enough to kill a monolith. Now my lychguard are stuck on my side of the table (I have to use Dimensional Corridor to move them because neither the Eternity Gate nor Emergency Invasion Beam works on turn one) and are going to have to weather 2-3 turns of incoming fire without doing anything at all to affect the board during that time because they're slow without some way to teleport around. If we include the Deceiver that I included in the list to make the Monolith usable in the first place then that's 906 points that have been effectively taken out of the game by cracking that one brick. That's a "lost on turn one" situation, Daedalus.

It'd be the same deal with rhinos or any other transport: if you go second, you're going to have to walk, and that means you lost the game.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Okay, so it is easy enough to kill a monolith. Now my lychguard are stuck on my side of the table (I have to use Dimensional Corridor to move them because neither the Eternity Gate nor Emergency Invasion Beam works on turn one) and are going to have to weather 2-3 turns of incoming fire without doing anything at all to affect the board during that time because they're slow without some way to teleport around. If we include the Deceiver that I included in the list to make the Monolith usable in the first place then that's 906 points that have been effectively taken out of the game by cracking that one brick. That's a "lost on turn one" situation, Daedalus.

It'd be the same deal with rhinos or any other transport: if you go second, you're going to have to walk, and that means you lost the game.

The problem isn't that transports don't work, the problem is that you are taking a single huge obvious target.

There is very little in the game that isn't going to die in one turn if your opponent devotes his while army to killing it.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Fly is pretty damn rare for front line units blocking melee assaults.

Fly is pretty rare, except for Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar. But lets also not forget the point here is we are talking about units/armies that ignore or minimize the downside to falling back from CC. Ultramarines ignore it and that 1 unit loses 1BS for 1 turn...that is it. Eldar also have a strat that allows them to retreat a unit from CC without consequence, A number of armies have abilities which allow you to teleport out of CC like Greyknights. And then to make the point even more obvious, the only major offending gun line army that CAN NOT do this is IG, but they don't need to. They can just screen there good stuff with cheap, throwaway infantry units. Ohhh no! you had to lose 1 round of shooting from your 10 man Guardsman unit? The horror. I guess the other 5 will just have to blast the offending CC unit off the table while your long ranged guns keep pounding away.

CC was already hard enough to get into with GOOD units and keep them tied up without this nerf, saying otherwise is a lie.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Transports are not out. They really, really aren't. People didn't use them, because T1 deepstrike was readily available. That and the perception that they are hugely overcosted, which they are, but not by a margin that changes lists in any meaningful way.

My army had the ability to turn 1 deepstrike Kommandos, which are 50% overpriced boyz....that is about it. So why didn't I bring transports for my army? Ohh that is right, because they are AWFUL and a complete waste of my points. 82pts for a Trukk with T6 4+ save and the ability to transport 12 models. Or I could double down and get a Battlewagon which will run 160+ and can transport 20 models. So the trukk literally costs MORE then the boys its transporting and the Battlewagon is SIGNIFICANTLY more then the 20 boys its transporting. neither can shoot worth a damn, but the battlewagon can at least take a deffrolla which makes it not useless after delivering its payload, of course now its even more expensive. In other words, Yes they are "overcosted" and by a very "Meaningful Way". So.....Yeah, Transports right now are UTTERLY useless.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Bring cheap, durable melee that can tie up the majority of the front line. THEN when the line is broken deepstrike the glass cannon.

No such CC unit exists. And lets break down your suggestion here. Bring up cheap durable melee (which doesn't exist) and tie up the majority of the frontline, this takes 2 turns to do , Turn 1 you move and advance and then turn 2 you move, advance and attempt to charge, so Really you are saying, spend 2 turns getting shot off the table and then deepstrike my other CC units.....basically to where my "Cheap durable" melee unit is because Screens are a thing and I have yet to run across an opponent who doesn't factor in a 9' deepstrike .

None of your suggestions are feasible, realistic or work. you invent units that don't exist to prove a point that you then forget takes several turns to accomplish where as before we were doing the exact same thing with turn 1 deepstrike AND STILL weren't winning tournaments.



So this brings me to another point, why did GW Nerf turn 1 deepstrike. The answer is simple, not because of Turn 1 deepstriking MELEE armies, nope, the offending units that needed a nerf were Turn 1 Deep striking Shooting units like Tau Commanders and the plethora of other units that were showing up and shooting OVER a screening unit instead of having to mulch through it in CC.

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
A full additional fight phase worth of punches could be too punishing, but if it was hitting on 6's then it could be a reasonable suggestion.

and leaving your CC unit exposed to the entire armies shooting phase is not punishing? Did you forget that said CC unit just walked itself up the board for a minimum of 2 full shooting phases to even get into assault? the fact that you even get the chance to walk out of CC is ridiculous.

 gbghg wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
A full additional fight phase worth of punches could be too punishing, but if it was hitting on 6's then it could be a reasonable suggestion.

and leaving your CC unit exposed to the entire armies shooting phase is not punishing? Did you forget that said CC unit just walked itself up the board for a minimum of 2 full shooting phases to even get into assault? the fact that you even get the chance to walk out of CC is ridiculous.

God forbid we utilize the revolutionary tactic of falling back from a fight we can't win. No, falling back and being exposed to attacks of opportunity seems fair. If the risk/reward of melee is skewed right now, perhaps the focus should be on decreasing the risk rather than bumping up the reward so melee units just become immune to shooting once they come into contact with another unit. That's just as awful a balance outcome as what we have now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:


That it does but because units like the shadow sword, exist taking really expensive transports or models is often not a good decision for winning at tournaments. Necrons have it better because you don’t decide what is in each transport. Transports fail if you have one or 2 important units in a few transports, they work well if you have multiple similarly treatening units in multiple transports. Because at that point some make it. But 1 Landraider full of vanguard vets, among a bunch of rhinos full of tactical marines is bad. Multiple landraiders is really too many points. For crons you are probably better using ghost arks or flyers as transports than monoliths. As for Ork trucks the issue is how many models they carry 12 Boyz just is not enough to get things done. If other Ork units get buffed in their codex I think trucks will work ok for those units.

Yet not many SS make it to higher tables.

The only reason i'd take a land raider is if I wanted to transport jump packs or cents.

 Ordana wrote:

 gbghg wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
A full additional fight phase worth of punches could be too punishing, but if it was hitting on 6's then it could be a reasonable suggestion.

and leaving your CC unit exposed to the entire armies shooting phase is not punishing? Did you forget that said CC unit just walked itself up the board for a minimum of 2 full shooting phases to even get into assault? the fact that you even get the chance to walk out of CC is ridiculous.

God forbid we utilize the revolutionary tactic of falling back from a fight we can't win. No, falling back and being exposed to attacks of opportunity seems fair. If the risk/reward of melee is skewed right now, perhaps the focus should be on decreasing the risk rather than bumping up the reward so melee units just become immune to shooting once they come into contact with another unit. That's just as awful a balance outcome as what we have now.

The problem is that there is almost no cost to fleeing from combat.
1 unit that couldn't shoot anyway (from being in combat) not being able to shoot is no big deal.
Some bigger penalty, like a free fight phase for the unit your running from, would go far to making the flee move feel less punishing to melee armies that already have to go through the trouble to even get into combat.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You can just also make your post say, "I didn't look at the price of anything in the Necron codex" so people understand why your post is super silly.

Breng77 wrote:


They tend not to make gob tables for the same reason other big units don’t, they are too prone to dying early and it only takes one game where that happens to put you off top tables.

 Ordana wrote:

 gbghg wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
A full additional fight phase worth of punches could be too punishing, but if it was hitting on 6's then it could be a reasonable suggestion.

and leaving your CC unit exposed to the entire armies shooting phase is not punishing? Did you forget that said CC unit just walked itself up the board for a minimum of 2 full shooting phases to even get into assault? the fact that you even get the chance to walk out of CC is ridiculous.

God forbid we utilize the revolutionary tactic of falling back from a fight we can't win. No, falling back and being exposed to attacks of opportunity seems fair. If the risk/reward of melee is skewed right now, perhaps the focus should be on decreasing the risk rather than bumping up the reward so melee units just become immune to shooting once they come into contact with another unit. That's just as awful a balance outcome as what we have now.

The problem is that there is almost no cost to fleeing from combat.
1 unit that couldn't shoot anyway (from being in combat) not being able to shoot is no big deal.
Some bigger penalty, like a free fight phase for the unit your running from, would go far to making the flee move feel less punishing to melee armies that already have to go through the trouble to even get into combat.

Trollbert wrote:
I think being able to lock units in melee is not a problem.

Allowing melee units to pile in and consolidate from unit to unit is clearly poor tactics. If your bubble wrap and artillery takes up all of your deployment zone and those units do not move an inch during the whole game, you deserve to lose against a single melee unit. (As long as turn 1 charges are not possible for the player going first.)