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WHY do people think "3flat damage rokkits > d6 rockets/lascannons"?

The average on a d6 is 3.5 - but anywhere from 0.33% to 2x damage over a 3flat rokkit. Odds are: 50% for [+33% to +100% damage], 17% for [same damage], 33% for [-33% to -66% damage].

The basic premise is that Rockets/Lascannons have a better chance of doing equal amounts of damage, or MORE, damage than a 3flat damage weapon 66% of the time. They also have a 33% chance of doing 1-2 damage, which is less, but, this is offset by the above...

10-12W vehicles can get 2shot by Lascannons (6+4, 5+5), whereas it takes FOUR Rokkits (BS5+, 50% chance of wounding, then only -2AP) at MINIMUM.

Rokkits are simply worse than other factions weapons, by a lot.

Rokkits need to be d6 damage [as Orks are the "random" faction (this rokkit was burstier than the other ones//or dud of a rocket)], and Marine Rockets need to become 3 flat. -- This would work for so many reasons, fluff; but more importantly, it better differentiates the Rocket/Lascannon in the Marine arsenal - The Rocket is a better multi-purpose tool (at taking down a horde, or an armored infantry (and vehicles in a pinch)), while the Lascannon is dedicated anti-vehicle.

Rokkits are bad.

My favorite thing is that Ork players RAVE over the Bomb Squig - but in reality, it's just an SM Rocket that hits on a 2+ instead of a 3+, and re-rolls 1's - something that can easily be equaled by a Captain and whatever else in the SM armory. "But it's 5 points!"; so are Armorium Cherubs, which allows for a second shot - basically amounting to the same thing.

fe40k wrote:
WHY do people think "3flat damage rokkits > d6 rockets/lascannons"?

The average on a d6 is 3.5 - but anywhere from 0.33% to 2x damage over a 3flat rokkit. Odds are: 50% for [+33% to +100% damage], 17% for [same damage], 33% for [-33% to -66% damage].

The basic premise is that Rockets/Lascannons have a better chance of doing equal amounts of damage, or MORE, damage than a 3flat damage weapon 66% of the time. They also have a 33% chance of doing 1-2 damage, which is less, but, this is offset by the above...

10-12W vehicles can get 2shot by Lascannons (6+4, 5+5), whereas it takes FOUR Rokkits (BS5+, 50% chance of wounding, then only -2AP) at MINIMUM.

Rokkits are simply worse than other factions weapons, by a lot.

Rokkits need to be d6 damage [as Orks are the "random" faction (this rokkit was burstier than the other ones//or dud of a rocket)], and Marine Rockets need to become 3 flat. -- This would work for so many reasons, fluff; but more importantly, it better differentiates the Rocket/Lascannon in the Marine arsenal - The Rocket is a better multi-purpose tool (at taking down a horde, or an armored infantry (and vehicles in a pinch)), while the Lascannon is dedicated anti-vehicle.

Rokkits are bad.

My favorite thing is that Ork players RAVE over the Bomb Squig - but in reality, it's just an SM Rocket that hits on a 2+ instead of a 3+, and re-rolls 1's - something that can easily be equaled by a Captain and whatever else in the SM armory. "But it's 5 points!"; so are Armorium Cherubs, which allows for a second shot - basically amounting to the same thing.

Reliable damage is an advantage. Its hard to argue if one is flat out better. On a whole, yes d6 will average out to more. 50% of the time it will do more damage, 33% of the time it will do less. However there are some scenarios where 3 flat damage is undoubtedly better, for example against 3 wound models, or even 2 wound models. For a 3 wound model, d6 damage only has 67% chance to kill, whereas a rokkit will kill 100% of the time (at the damage roll stage). It also allows me to be a bit freer with my CP reroll that I'm normally saving for that 1 i'll inevitably roll on damage.

This gets skewed by tankbustas having the vehicle re-roll, meaning that their best targets are often in the higher wound range, but still reliability is nice. Against an 11 wound vehicle (pretty common) while a d6 damage weapon CAN two shot it, it will still on average take slightly more than 3 shots to down it. But since we are talking about kopta rokkits here, 3 wound models (battle suits, custodes etc) are perfectly good targets.

They are half the price too compared to the marine equivalent. Sure they are twice as accurate and have twice the range, but assault is pretty great. With a 14 inch move, the kopta has a huge firing arc without penalty, difficult to block LoS. An MEQ can move and hit on 4+, but they are still paying double points for that accuracy and range, and a more likely to want to stay in some sort of re-roll bubble.

I agree that on balance a marine missile launcher is better, but I just don't think its as clear cut.

p.s I think rokkits could do with being 10 points per shot, koptas could do with being about 50pts total with bombs costing something. I also think that some interesting clan bonus or strategem could shake things up nicely.

fe40k wrote:
WHY do people think "3flat damage rokkits > d6 rockets/lascannons"?

The average on a d6 is 3.5 - but anywhere from 0.33% to 2x damage over a 3flat rokkit. Odds are: 50% for [+33% to +100% damage], 17% for [same damage], 33% for [-33% to -66% damage].

The basic premise is that Rockets/Lascannons have a better chance of doing equal amounts of damage, or MORE, damage than a 3flat damage weapon 66% of the time. They also have a 33% chance of doing 1-2 damage, which is less, but, this is offset by the above...
.

It depends a lot against what you shoot. Sure against W12+ guys d6 might be better(though only marginally. 0.5w per hit). But imagine you are shooting at W2, W3, W6 etc guys. At this point flat damage is more reliable. You hit terminator. Rokkit kills one dead. Lascannon you might roll 1 and this is not compensated by rolling 6 on the next shot...Often here rolling low on first lascannon is not compensated by rolling high on next.

Brad Gamma wrote:
They are half the price too compared to the marine equivalent. Sure they are twice as accurate and have twice the range, but assault is pretty great.

Being twice as accurate ALONE justifies Missile Launchers being twice as costly. When you factor multiple weapon profiles and the crazy range advantage (which basically makes "Assault" entirely redundant), you realise that it is indeed "clear cut" : Rokkits are grossly overpriced.

You're confusing the unit that carries them (Koptas) and the weapon itself. Koptas move 14", not Rokkits. Koptas have great fire arcs, not Rokkits. Koptas should be costed according to these strength, but Rokkits are just poor man's ML, not matter how you look at them.

 Nym wrote:

Brad Gamma wrote:
They are half the price too compared to the marine equivalent. Sure they are twice as accurate and have twice the range, but assault is pretty great.

Being twice as accurate ALONE justifies Missile Launchers being twice as costly. When you factor multiple weapon profiles and the crazy range advantage (which basically makes "Assault" entirely redundant), you realise that it is indeed "clear cut" : Rokkits are grossly overpriced.

You're confusing the unit that carries them (Koptas) and the weapon itself. Koptas move 14", not Rokkits. Koptas have great fire arcs, not Rokkits. Koptas should be costed according to these strength, but Rokkits are just poor man's ML, not matter how you look at them.

Range advantage doesn't render assault redundant, unless you are just adding movement to range and comparing those. If a unit is hiding behind a building thats 30" in front of me, then assault is not at all redundant.

Also the assault is part of the weapon profile, which allows interesting combination with things that carry it. A trukk, battlewagon or chinork have decent maneuvarability. Should rokkits assault characteristic be factored into the cost of those?

Or simply being able to move into assault range. Orks in general want to get into choppy choppy range. With missile launcher you would be hitting with 6+ if you want to get to put choppa into enemy skull.

Besides 24" is plenty range anyway especially on decently terrained battlefield. I rarely run out of targets with half speed leman russ punishers either. Anything beyond 36" is once in a blue moon usage.

Are you guys aware that this is a discussion about Orks ?

Getting within 24" of the ennemy spells doom for any Ork unit (please, don't compare them to a tank with 12 wounds, T8 and a 3+ save...) and the ability to Advance and shoot is entirely negated by being BS6+ after such a move. I don't know a single Ork player that wouldn't instantly trade his Assault 24" Rokkits for Heavy 48" Rokkits.

Even the LoS issue is not really relevant, as there is always at least 1 viable target for a unit with a range of 48", unless you're playing ITC with First floor blocking LoS entirely.

Ummm orks pretty much HAVE to get within 24" as you know, close combat range is 1". If you don't get within 1" you can't do much anyway. And first step in getting to 1" is getting inside 24" as outside 24" even fastest thing you have is going to require hell of a luck.

If there's army LEAST bothered by 24" range it's orks as you are aiming to get there(and even closer) ANYWAY.

And come to play on my tables. Even 36" is not quaranteed straight LOS.

Remember I agree they are overcosted, I just don't think they are worse than missile launchers in every single way.

I said in most situations, the standard imperium ML is better, but do you not see how its not always the case? Would I swap assault 24 for heavy 48? Sure it would be pretty tempting. But there are situations where its worse.

I can't hide my trukk first turn, without halving my effectiveness next turn. I can't dart for an objective without halving my effectiveness. I can't move to pick a hiding target that I think is higher priority than just a "viable" other target that MIGHT exist.

You can play with terrain that isn't ruins, and also, while I don't play ITC rules, they are relevant (although I don't think GW should balance around them). The only thing stopping ITC ruin rules being GW's rules is how the terrain is modelled.

fe40k wrote:
WHY do people think "3flat damage rokkits > d6 rockets/lascannons"?

The average on a d6 is 3.5 - but anywhere from 0.33% to 2x damage over a 3flat rokkit. Odds are: 50% for [+33% to +100% damage], 17% for [same damage], 33% for [-33% to -66% damage].

The basic premise is that Rockets/Lascannons have a better chance of doing equal amounts of damage, or MORE, damage than a 3flat damage weapon 66% of the time. They also have a 33% chance of doing 1-2 damage, which is less, but, this is offset by the above...

10-12W vehicles can get 2shot by Lascannons (6+4, 5+5), whereas it takes FOUR Rokkits (BS5+, 50% chance of wounding, then only -2AP) at MINIMUM.

Rokkits are simply worse than other factions weapons, by a lot.

Rokkits need to be d6 damage [as Orks are the "random" faction (this rokkit was burstier than the other ones//or dud of a rocket)], and Marine Rockets need to become 3 flat. -- This would work for so many reasons, fluff; but more importantly, it better differentiates the Rocket/Lascannon in the Marine arsenal - The Rocket is a better multi-purpose tool (at taking down a horde, or an armored infantry (and vehicles in a pinch)), while the Lascannon is dedicated anti-vehicle.

Rokkits are bad.

My favorite thing is that Ork players RAVE over the Bomb Squig - but in reality, it's just an SM Rocket that hits on a 2+ instead of a 3+, and re-rolls 1's - something that can easily be equaled by a Captain and whatever else in the SM armory. "But it's 5 points!"; so are Armorium Cherubs, which allows for a second shot - basically amounting to the same thing.

Over enough rolls, yes D6 becomes better, but not by much. The rokkit and other flat 3 damage weapons maintain reliability throughout - especially against targets with 2 through 6 wounds (barring 4 wound targets).

 Daedalus81 wrote:
No you don't need to advance for three turns. I know it's a dirty word, but use Trukks. Or, use Da Jump on them.

Sure, let me add 60+ points to that rokkit in my boyz mob, that will make it better.
I also must have missed how space marines need to field rhinos and librarians in order to use lascannons. Also, only one jump per turn.
Rokkits can be taken on boyz, big meks, meks, spannas, battlewagons, trukks and tank bustas. It needs to be worth its points on every single damn one of them.

Surely having no move penalty on a "heavy" weapon is also worth something?

Not when combined with 48" range. I'd take heavy 48" rokkits over assault 24" any day.

Orks are not Space Marines. Don't go into it with the expectation that they'll ever operate the same way.

In 5th edition 30 shoota boyz were equal to ten tactical marine almost every regard. In 5th edition ork shooting worked just like it should.

This is an attempt to demonstrate how poor the rokkit is to an LC, but when you actually tie it to the cost of the body and weapon...<irrelevant math>

Closer, right? You get the effectiveness of an LC on a regular non-tankbusta boy. And if you keep the Tankbusta the same price as before it's still more efficient than the LC.

Congratulations, more wasted time on math. I'm not even going to bother to find which body you used to get those numbers for the LC, since you are obviously trying to skew the math in your favor of your argument.
Tankbustas are fine. Koptas are not. Therefore any math you do comparing tankbustas, who hit significantly more often than any other ork units with rokkits can be ignored as well.

Let's to the calculation again for koptas, since that's what this thread is about. Oh, look 88.875 points per damage, three times as much as your magic number.

"But shorter range"

Right, so, most people aren't taking rokkits on boyz.

Gee, I wonder why that is. Don't you think green tides would be bringing 20 lascannons if they could?

They go on vehicles that move 12" or Tankbustaz in Trukks or Jumped. There's a really fine line between good and broken and you'll risk that with TBs.

"Every unit with rokkits but tankbustas sucks and that's how it should be". Thanks for your input, really.

Yes, you'll lose some efficiency by doing these things, but those support units also serve other purposes as other than to JUST get TBs where they need to be.

Other purposes? Like what?

It's not line they're in tons of danger when they're infantry hiding behind a building waiting for the tide to roll in.

You do realize that they can be murdered by imperial infantry or space marine scouts used to screen the vehicle in question? They only have 24" range, if you use da jump to shoot a vehicle, a deep strike screen will be in rapid fire and charge range on their turn. if you don't shoot, they are dead on your next turn, even if you hide them out of sight. Literally everything can kill them by shooting and charging.

I also must have missed how space marines need to field rhinos and librarians in order to use lascannons. Also, only one jump per turn.
Rokkits can be taken on boyz, big meks, meks, spannas, battlewagons, trukks and tank bustas. It needs to be worth its points on every single damn one of them.

I missed where SM devs have 2 attacks each. Or where tacs can get 5 attacks each. Or where SM have an open topped vehicle. Or where SM have an on table deepstrike. Or where SM can take units of 30 jump packs. Or where SM can have a leadership of 30. Or what SM have a 5++ bubble. Or where SM get +1 to hit in CC.

I could go on all day.

Rokkits at 8 points is worth it. You're just going to have to trust me on this.

Congratulations, more wasted time on math. I'm not even going to bother to find which body you used to get those numbers for the LC, since you are obviously trying to skew the math in your favor of your argument.

I used the most favorable cost for the LC - on a dev. Meaning that's the most efficient points to get a LC. Nice assumption though.

Let's to the calculation again for koptas, since that's what this thread is about. Oh, look 88.875 points per damage, three times as much as your magic number.

And lascannons on a predator cost more per shot, but come on a more durable platform. Not sure what you're trying to prove.

"Every unit with rokkits but tankbustas sucks and that's how it should be". Thanks for your input, really.

Nope I demonstrated where an 8 point rokkit would be more than serviceable.

Other purposes? Like what?

Smite. +1A. Jumping other units. Ramming chaff. Blocking LOS.

You do realize that they can be murdered by imperial infantry or space marine scouts used to screen the vehicle in question? They only have 24" range, if you use da jump to shoot a vehicle, a deep strike screen will be in rapid fire and charge range on their turn. if you don't shoot, they are dead on your next turn, even if you hide them out of sight. Literally everything can kill them by shooting and charging.

You have 30 boyz in their screen with more on the way. 10 TBs is 170 points. That's a dead predator, which is usually more points. If deepstrikers kill them they've already earned their points.

Daedalus, at 8pts I would NEVER take a Rokkit, I had a hard time justifying them in 7th edition when they were 5pts, I would take them on a battlewagon but only because I wanted my enemies to fire on that thing instead of my bikes.

14ppm for a Boy armed with a Rokkit, he will hit 1 time in 3 turns unless he advances (which he will do because boyz need to get into CC range) which will make him hit 1 time in 6 turns on average. Would you pay 8 points for a weapon that hits once every 3 turns? and will at most do 3dmg? No? why should I then?

But again, this is a thread about DeffKoptas, so a DeffKopta as mentioned will be doing about 80+pts per damage, and while it is "tougher" or "More durable" it isn't on a PPM basis. For the cost of 1 Kopta with Rokkitz I can take NUMEROUS Tankbustas or even boyz with rokkitz. And last time I checked, a multi wound low toughness vehicle with a 4+ save isn't hard to kill.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I missed where SM devs have 2 attacks each. Or where tacs can get 5 attacks each. Or where SM have an open topped vehicle. Or where SM have an on table deepstrike. Or where SM can take units of 30 jump packs. Or where SM can have a leadership of 30. Or what SM have a 5++ bubble. Or where SM get +1 to hit in CC.

The bruning man festival called. They want their strawman back. Also, good job ignoring all the advantages space marines have over orks.

Rokkits at 8 points is worth it. You're just going to have to trust me on this.

You obviously don't have the first idea about how orks work. Your entire argument boils down to "orks should not be better at anything than any other army", like it does for most non-ork players on these forums. Therefore, sorry I don't trust any of you one-sided arguments or math comparing apples to oranges.

Other purposes? Like what?

Smite. +1A. Jumping other units. Ramming chaff. Blocking LOS.

Now I know for sure that you have never played a single one of those units you are talking about in your life.
Blocking LOS with trukks. Glorious.

You have 30 boyz in their screen with more on the way. 10 TBs is 170 points. That's a dead predator, which is usually more points. If deepstrikers kill them they've already earned their points.

Please enlighten me how you get 30 boyz to screen a unit of tank bustas that is driving a trukk or that has jumped this turn. And how you have a predator in 24" if you have your screen and their screen inbetween.
On top of that, 10 tank bustas will not kill anything bigger than a land speeder on average.

So, please stop.

 Jidmah wrote:
[
Gee, I wonder why that is. Don't you think green tides would be bringing 20 lascannons if they could?

Not really. Pay arms and teeth for weapon that will be hitting on 6+ minimum, quite possibly 7+. Doesn't sound that much of a winning plan.

Especially as at most 50% of lascannons range is useful and even that is dubious. If you can't fire on something with 29% threat range there's something seriously wrong with your deployment. And if you can have >36" LOS quaranteed there's something seriously wrong with your terrain.

Ive been told by the so called dakka community not to discuss points...to faced w&*%$(s

 Jidmah wrote:

The bruning man festival called. They want their strawman back. Also, good job ignoring all the advantages space marines have over orks.

I pointed those out, because YOU were "but, space marines!". Stop ignoring the advantages Orks have over SM. They're not the same race. They never will be.

You obviously don't have the first idea about how orks work. Your entire argument boils down to "orks should not be better at anything than any other army", like it does for most non-ork players on these forums. Therefore, sorry I don't trust any of you one-sided arguments or math comparing apples to oranges.

Obviously you, like many others, don't quite understand what makes a unit broken. You want a 5 point rokkit for the random units? Ok. What is the base cost of a tankbusta then? YOU are the one who made a one sided argument with math. I have given the most objective view available.

Oh, and I play Orks.

Now I know for sure that you have never played a single one of those units you are talking about in your life.
Blocking LOS with trukks. Glorious.

Pick up your trukk and look at it face on.

Please enlighten me how you get 30 boyz to screen a unit of tank bustas that is driving a trukk or that has jumped this turn. And how you have a predator in 24" if you have your screen and their screen inbetween.
On top of that, 10 tank bustas will not kill anything bigger than a land speeder on average.

10 will seriously cripple a predator with probably a 30% chance to kill it.

Turn 1 - Jump Boyz, shoot screen, charge
Turn 2 - Jump TBs
(support with other units)

~or~

Turn 1 - Jump Boyz, shoot screen, charge / mount TBs into Trukk, drive Trukk 12" (leave them outside the Trukk in case you don't get turn 1 and wedge them between two all covered by KFF)
Turn 2 - move trukk, rokkits are now in range

Edit: removed salt

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Obviously you, like many others, don't quite understand what makes a unit broken. You want a 5 point rokkit for the random units? Ok. What is the base cost of a tankbusta then? YOU are the one who made a one sided argument with math. I have given the most objective view available.

Assuming 17 pts(as now) is correct for tank bustas and 5 pts for rokkits...12.

tneva82 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Obviously you, like many others, don't quite understand what makes a unit broken. You want a 5 point rokkit for the random units? Ok. What is the base cost of a tankbusta then? YOU are the one who made a one sided argument with math. I have given the most objective view available.

Assuming 17 pts(as now) is correct for tank bustas and 5 pts for rokkits...12.

On that you and I agree. I doubt many others will swallow 12 points for T4 and a tshirt save.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Obviously you, like many others, don't quite understand what makes a unit broken. You want a 5 point rokkit for the random units? Ok. What is the base cost of a tankbusta then? YOU are the one who made a one sided argument with math. I have given the most objective view available.

Assuming 17 pts(as now) is correct for tank bustas and 5 pts for rokkits...12.

On that you and I agree. I doubt many others will swallow 12 points for T4 and a tshirt save.

Probably because at 17pts Tankbustas aren't good. Because you will NEVER see Tankbustas without a vehicle to give them some kind of durability. So a unit of 10 Bustas actually costs 25ppm because of the 82pt cost of the Trukk. So it isn't 170pts for 10 bustas (which even with 4+ armor wouldn't be that stellar) but 252pts for 10 bustas who will lose 1/6th of their unit WHEN not if, WHEN the trukk dies. And with T6 and 4+ save, it won't take long.