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 Peregrine wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
We have to bear in mind that the ST films are dramatic visual representations of things which are actually impossible, and if they were possible, would be impossible to detect visually, and would have to be simulated.

Then you can apply the same principles to Star Wars. If what you actually see happening on the screen isn't accurate then how can you conclude that Star Wars ships have trouble with slow targets, have limited firepower, etc? Perhaps the movies are just "dramatic visual representations" of Culture-level combat and Star Wars would win even more effortlessly than I've been arguing.

If you apply the same principles to Star Wars, in Star Wars films you've got a dramatic visual representation of space combat at sub-light speeds, which is a thing which is physically possible, and could be visually captured on film if it happened.

Thus the SW sequences are a "real" representation of how SW space combat actually works.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
But we never see those 200 gigaton shots or anything like that, we see ray guns that can damage but not destroy unshielded fighters and freighters.

"Unshielded" means nothing when you don't know how strong their armor is. To give an extreme example, both Star Trek and Star Wars could combine their entire fleets and fire at an unshielded Culture warship and it probably wouldn't even notice. Does that mean their guns are weak? No, it means that they're shooting at an insanely durable target. That's why you have to look at performance against known targets like asteroids, where the star destroyer in ESB vaporizing asteroids with its invisibly tiny secondary batteries scales up to those 200 gigaton primary weapons.

You use the asteroid as a constant, but we also don't know the exact dimensions of asteroid compared to each starship, or compared to each other. Nor do we know the composition of said asteroids. For all you know, the ST:TMP asteroid could have been tungsten or something as fragile as sulfur. Should we assume that, since you're a rabid Warsie with no ability to look at things objectively that the Trek asteroid was tissue paper the size of a suitcase while the ESB asteroid was the size of an aircraft carrier and made out of diamond?

 Peregrine wrote:

So if they can spare 5 gigatons (1000 cups of tea) of power for their crew's wake up drink (plus oh, lets say 20 gigatons more for pancakes and sausage) how much power can they put into weapons and shields?

Unknown. Again, your aircraft carrier mention is relevant. If reactor power is a constant 24/7 output of 10 gigatons (comparable to the aircraft carrier being able to maintain 30 knots indefinitely) then dumping 5 gigatons into breakfast when outside of combat is just using energy that would otherwise be wasted. But using "spare" energy on luxury items doesn't mean that the peak output is much higher, or that the ship could spend that much power on breakfast while also powering its weapons and shields.

Also, remember the difference between power and energy. Producing 5 gigatons worth of tea doesn't give you power output unless you know how fast those cups of tea are produced. If, say, the crew's breakfast is spread out over an hour that doesn't mean that the ship can maintain useful rate of fire with weapons that require 5 gigatons per shot.

We also know that power can be redirected from any nonessential systems on a Starfleet starship upon command and used to increase power and performance of other systems. So even IF they were limited to 10 gigatons (which is a fraction of the power that a starship can produce) it would be child's play for them to redirect power to weapons and slice through the IDS like it was tissue paper.

 Peregrine wrote:

And that's just one example of what the Federation can casually do that the Empire cannot even come close to.

Alternatively, it's an example of the idiot scientists/engineers in the Federation using a vastly over-complicated system to provide basic meals for its starship crews. It may be "casual", but only because the Federation is run by idiots who love technobabble over practical solutions.

Or we are talking about a very smart way of handling space limitations on a ship, and resource management.

 Peregrine wrote:

Even if we throw out linking this to real world numbers, plot drives everything and the Federation's continuity gives them a wealth of story-driven options they can use while the Empire has just numbers.

Only if you have no imagination. The Empire has plenty of story-driven options, and the Federation's "story" options largely consist of technobabble. And "spew technobabble for 45 minutes" is a terrible story.

So basically you dismiss everything from Trek as technobabble, but accept everything from a franchise built around space wizards with laser swords? Wait, sorry, plasma swords? That's what we call an unbiased analysis...

 Peregrine wrote:

In the end they're the good guys and the Empire are someone else's mooks destined to lose.

The Empire was the rightful government of the Star Wars galaxy, overthrown by terrorists and mass murderers. They're clearly the good guys of the story, and destined to win eventually. Meanwhile the Federation is clearly a communist state, and we know that communists are bad and always lose in the end.

If history is any indicator...

Why are we not talking about the real issue here.

SW has Space Wizards, ST does not.

Space Wizards trump battleships because magic.

Check and mate nerds.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why are we not talking about the real issue here.

SW has Space Wizards, ST does not.

Space Wizards trump battleships because magic.

Check and mate nerds.

The Empire has TWO space wizards.

I could cast an entire TV series from the number of Enterprise crew/passengers who've ascended to legitimate, no @#$%, snap your finger and blow up a planet GODHOOD.

You can have Vader and Palpatine, I'll take Gary Mitchel and Elizabeth Dehner two of the low-end, inexperienced gods.

Really you don't want to take on ST universe in a contest of Space Magic.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why are we not talking about the real issue here.

SW has Space Wizards, ST does not.

Space Wizards trump battleships because magic.

Check and mate nerds.

Star Trek has Wesley Crusher.

A human with such natural knowledge of time, space, energy and propulsion that an alien being capable of travelling freely throughout the universe, including sending the Enterprise to M33 and then the end of the universe, thought him remarkable and an example of mankinds potential that could lead to them achieving the same capabilities.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why are we not talking about the real issue here.

SW has Space Wizards, ST does not.

Space Wizards trump battleships because magic.

Check and mate nerds.

The Empire has TWO space wizards.

I could cast an entire TV series from the number of Enterprise crew/passengers who've ascended to legitimate, no @#$%, snap your finger and blow up a planet GODHOOD.

You can have Vader and Palpatine, I'll take Gary Mitchel and Elizabeth Dehner two of the low-end, inexperienced gods.

Really you don't want to take on ST universe in a contest of Space Magic.

Indeed. If you go space God's, then the Organians decide everyone needs to play nice across both galaxies.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why are we not talking about the real issue here.

SW has Space Wizards, ST does not.

Space Wizards trump battleships because magic.

Check and mate nerds.

Star Trek has Wesley Crusher.

A human with such natural knowledge of time, space, energy and propulsion that an alien being capable of travelling freely throughout the universe, including sending the Enterprise to M33 and then the end of the universe, thought him remarkable and an example of mankinds potential that could lead to them achieving the same capabilities.

Conversely Star Trek has Wesley Crusher so looses by default.

 ingtaer wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why are we not talking about the real issue here.

SW has Space Wizards, ST does not.

Space Wizards trump battleships because magic.

Check and mate nerds.

Star Trek has Wesley Crusher.

A human with such natural knowledge of time, space, energy and propulsion that an alien being capable of travelling freely throughout the universe, including sending the Enterprise to M33 and then the end of the universe, thought him remarkable and an example of mankinds potential that could lead to them achieving the same capabilities.

Conversely Star Trek has Wesley Crusher so looses by default.

Star Wars has Jar Jar and prequel Anakin

At least Wesley never complained about sand

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why are we not talking about the real issue here.

SW has Space Wizards, ST does not.

Space Wizards trump battleships because magic.

Check and mate nerds.

The Empire has TWO space wizards.

That is simply not true. Vader had apprentices. There are lots of force sensitives. Not to mention all the randoms running around that are just "lucky" out there. Also, are we discussing the Palp/Vader Empire here? New Trilogy Empire? Old Republic Era Empire? You better pray it's not Old Republic because your gods would be laughed at and mocked while being shocked and drained of life force. Regardless, I'm not too worried about what little gs the Federation has in their pocket.

Also, are those gods a part of the Federation? As in ranked members running around on ships? If the Federation has gods working for them why are they so terrible at almost everything?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If you apply the same principles to Star Wars, in Star Wars films you've got a dramatic visual representation of space combat at sub-light speeds, which is a thing which is physically possible, and could be visually captured on film if it happened.

Thus the SW sequences are a "real" representation of how SW space combat actually works.

Do they ever say they are fighting at sub-light speeds? No. If you're going with the "dramatic visual representation" defense then you have no grounds for arguing that anything shown on-screen has any meaning. After all, it could just be "drama".

Also, no, Star Wars combat is not a thing that is physically possible. Objects in space don't move like WWII dogfight clips. So clearly it's a "dramatic visual representation" of high-FTL high-firepower combat that makes the Culture look weak.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If you apply the same principles to Star Wars, in Star Wars films you've got a dramatic visual representation of space combat at sub-light speeds, which is a thing which is physically possible, and could be visually captured on film if it happened.

Thus the SW sequences are a "real" representation of how SW space combat actually works.

Do they ever say they are fighting at sub-light speeds? ...

Every battle shown in SW is specifically shown to begin after the ships involved exit from light speed, and the actions are broken off when the escaping ships make the transit to light speed.

 Just Tony wrote:
You use the asteroid as a constant, but we also don't know the exact dimensions of asteroid compared to each starship, or compared to each other. Nor do we know the composition of said asteroids. For all you know, the ST:TMP asteroid could have been tungsten or something as fragile as sulfur. Should we assume that, since you're a rabid Warsie with no ability to look at things objectively that the Trek asteroid was tissue paper the size of a suitcase while the ESB asteroid was the size of an aircraft carrier and made out of diamond?

Wow, "warsie", I haven't heard that one in a long time. Perhaps you have your own calculations for the scenes in question?

We also know that power can be redirected from any nonessential systems on a Starfleet starship upon command and used to increase power and performance of other systems. So even IF they were limited to 10 gigatons (which is a fraction of the power that a starship can produce) it would be child's play for them to redirect power to weapons and slice through the IDS like it was tissue paper.

That is not how it works. You can't just assume that component limits do not exist. For example, you can build a circuit that delivers the entire power supplied to your house through a single light bulb but that doesn't mean you can successfully increase its brightness to any arbitrary level.

And even delivering 100% of that 10 gigaton value to its guns, saving nothing for movement or defense (IOW, committing suicide to fire a shot), the Star Trek ship is still only getting 5% of the firepower of a single shot from a Clone Wars era transport. That's at least probably relevant on the scale of Star Wars combat and could maybe do damage eventually, but it's far short of effortlessly killing a star destroyer.

So basically you dismiss everything from Trek as technobabble, but accept everything from a franchise built around space wizards with laser swords? Wait, sorry, plasma swords? That's what we call an unbiased analysis...

Yes, of course I dismiss technobabble as good writing. Star Wars has fantasy elements, but it just takes them for granted and doesn't over-explain them. It's a lightsaber, but we hear far more about the philosophy and history of the weapon than some nonsense "explanation" of how it works. Meanwhile Star Trek is entire episodes of that cringe-worthy "midichlorians" scene. I mean, which do you think is better writing:

Star Wars: "Enemy ship! Open fire!"

Star Trek: "The enemy appears to be using an inverse tachyon phase array to modulate their plasma signature! We must reverse polarize our warp core to produce a subspace energy field that will allow us to lock on to their ship!"

Kirk: *shoots the technobabble officer, sleeps with your mom* "DIE KLINGON S! OPEN FIRE!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Every battle shown in SW is specifically shown to begin after the ships involved exit from light speed, and the actions are broken off when the escaping ships make the transit to light speed.

That sure sounds like a "dramatic visual representation" of ships exiting hyperspace and fighting at slower FTL speeds. Remember, Star Wars ships can go FTL without hyperspace, as demonstrated by the Falcon's trip from Hoth to Bespin.

Are we still ignoring the 690 gigaton figure for photon torpedoes?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Are we still ignoring the 690 gigaton figure for photon torpedoes?

Yes, because it's obvious nonsense. The problem with stating a mechanism for things, matter/antimatter annihilation, is that we know the maximum possible limit according to the laws of physics. Photon torpedoes can not have that much firepower, period. The only way to get there is to throw out their operating mechanism of matter/antimatter annihilation, but that requires throwing out vast quantities of canon evidence in favor of a single EU source.

So obvious nonsense in Star Wars is fine because "higher canon", obvious nonsense in Star Trek is to be ignored because reasons.

I think this discussion's gotten as far as it ever will.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So obvious nonsense in Star Wars is fine because "higher canon", obvious nonsense in Star Trek is to be ignored because reasons.

I think this discussion's gotten as far as it ever will.

How is leaving the galaxy "obvious nonsense"? It argues for very fast hyperspace speeds, but we already have lots of evidence for very fast hyperspace speeds. And TBH the rebel fleet crossing half the galaxy from Yavin to Scarif in a matter of minutes probably demonstrates even higher speeds than the ESB scene.

And yes, there's a difference between throwing out a movie or TV scene, the highest level of cannon, and throwing out a third-party tie-in product.

If we're not going to use the Next Generation Tech Manual you also can't quote the 1.5 kg antimatter warhead, because that's where that is from too. Either it's a good enough source, in which case we can extrapolate the 690 gigaton figure, or we it isn't a good enough source, in which case we can't extrapolate the 64 megaton number. Either way the 64 megaton figure can't be accurate unless we selectively ignore parts of the same source.

You can throw out parts of a source without discarding all of it. 1.5kg and 64 megatons is consistent with what we see on-screen for torpedo size. 690 gigatons requires a much larger volume of antimatter than torpedoes are capable of holding, so that number must be wrong.

Or there's simply more to the torpedo than a brute-force antimatter warhead. You know, like the tech manual says.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why are we not talking about the real issue here.

SW has Space Wizards, ST does not.

Space Wizards trump battleships because magic.

Check and mate nerds.

Space wizards are exaggerated in value - if the ship they are on blows up - they die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AdeptSister wrote:
While I agree that the Empire has vastly more numbers and Hyperdrive, like someone mentioned earlier, Star Trek is all about super science and out sciencing their enemies. All it would take is for them to capture one SW ship with hyperdrive and SW would lose the advantage in mobility. ST has always been good at swiftly updating ships to new tech. At least in the SW films, technology has seemed to have mostly stagnated.

The tech level difference is huge. I am not sure the brute force of the Empire would be enough.

The brute force is exaggerated though. Just look at the MF running from an ISD for quite a long time. Being shot the whole time by a ship 1000 times larger than it - not being destroyed. In startrek a few photon torpedos would have destroyed such a pathetic ship.

 dogma wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Not because of the length of travel time, it was because she was going to be hiding out for an extended period.

That isn't explained, all we hear is that Anakin is supposed to protect Padme.

Umm, yes it is. She explicitly says she is taking an extended leave of absence.

 Peregrine wrote:
You can throw out parts of a source without discarding all of it. 1.5kg and 64 megatons is consistent with what we see on-screen for torpedo size. 690 gigatons requires a much larger volume of antimatter than torpedoes are capable of holding, so that number must be wrong.

There is no viable source that tells us how strong any of these weapon systems are. We have to look at the visual evidence and what we know about physics.

A photon torpedo has been shown to move at approx .75 the speed of light when fired from sublight. Which is roughly 225,000,000 mps - it has a mass of 260 kg. Simple math shows an energy release of 6 Mt of kinetic energy alone. More than enough to destroy any city on earth without even detonating the warhead. Reasonable to assume you wouldn't even need an antimatter warhead attached to it with that much power. However - perhaps sheilds are very effective at removing kenetic energy from and object - so a warhead putting out a 80 gigaton detonation was required lol.

Clearly these numbers are insane. No material could sustain these kinds of forces. Everything would be destroyed in 1 shot.

Even more disturbing - the red matter from 2009 startrek if weaponized is even more scary than a death star. A single cloaked ship could destroy every planet/ every fleet/ in the entire starwars galaxy without the empire ever even knowing it was the federation that was doing it.

 Peregrine wrote:


"Unshielded" means nothing when you don't know how strong their armor is. To give an extreme example, both Star Trek and Star Wars could combine their entire fleets and fire at an unshielded Culture warship and it probably wouldn't even notice. Does that mean their guns are weak? No, it means that they're shooting at an insanely durable target. That's why you have to look at performance against known targets like asteroids, where the star destroyer in ESB vaporizing asteroids with its invisibly tiny secondary batteries scales up to those 200 gigaton primary weapons.

No it does not. At most you can get megatons out of that scene, and that would be assuming completely metallic asteroids.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why are we not talking about the real issue here.

SW has Space Wizards, ST does not.

Space Wizards trump battleships because magic.

Check and mate nerds.

Space wizards are exaggerated in value - if the ship they are on blows up - they die.

Depends on the Space Wizard. There are some that would just laugh about it.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why are we not talking about the real issue here.

SW has Space Wizards, ST does not.

Space Wizards trump battleships because magic.

Check and mate nerds.

Space wizards are exaggerated in value - if the ship they are on blows up - they die.

Depends on the Space Wizard. There are some that would just laugh about it.

Example please? Are we talking about Poppins Leia?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why are we not talking about the real issue here.

SW has Space Wizards, ST does not.

Space Wizards trump battleships because magic.

Check and mate nerds.

Space wizards are exaggerated in value - if the ship they are on blows up - they die.

Depends on the Space Wizard. There are some that would just laugh about it.

Example please? Are we talking about Poppins Leia?

Palpatine, Bane, Nihilus, Old Republic Emperor(I forget his name)

That is only including the ones we get to interact with in movies/games/books while they are alive. So Exar Kun and the old old Sith, as in the original Sith Race, are not included in this.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why are we not talking about the real issue here.

SW has Space Wizards, ST does not.

Space Wizards trump battleships because magic.

Check and mate nerds.

Space wizards are exaggerated in value - if the ship they are on blows up - they die.

Depends on the Space Wizard. There are some that would just laugh about it.

Example please? Are we talking about Poppins Leia?

Palpatine, Bane, Nihilus, Old Republic Emperor(I forget his name)

That is only including the ones we get to interact with in movies/games/books while they are alive. So Exar Kun and the old old Sith, as in the original Sith Race, are not included in this.

All of these wizards were on a ship when it exploded in space and they didn't die? Yet every jedi in the republic minus 2 of them were killed by being shot in the back by storm troopers?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why are we not talking about the real issue here.

SW has Space Wizards, ST does not.

Space Wizards trump battleships because magic.

Check and mate nerds.

Space wizards are exaggerated in value - if the ship they are on blows up - they die.

Depends on the Space Wizard. There are some that would just laugh about it.

Example please? Are we talking about Poppins Leia?

Palpatine, Bane, Nihilus, Old Republic Emperor(I forget his name)

That is only including the ones we get to interact with in movies/games/books while they are alive. So Exar Kun and the old old Sith, as in the original Sith Race, are not included in this.

All of these wizards were on a ship when it exploded in space and they didn't die? Yet every jedi in the republic minus 2 of them were killed by being shot in the back by storm troopers?

All 4 have been through worse than a ship exploding in space(Nihilus was on a planet being destroyed by a doomsday device!) and made it out. Dark Side users are very powerful, that is why 2 is enough to overthrow a whole order of Jedi. They can do some crazy stuff, like consume the entire life force of a planet(Again, Nihilus) just to feed their power.

But yeah, little g gods definitely got this!

 dogma wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

Sure, the Millenium Falcon is 'the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy'. Now let's look at Episode 2, where Anakin and Padme travel from Coruscant to Naboo (along the outer edge of the Mid-Rim) in a spacegoing BUS, with no evidence of intermediate stops.

That took long enough that Jar-Jar had to assume Padme's duties.

Which was prearranged, as they were going to Naboo to hide from assassins for an extended period. That is, an extended period ON NABOO, not in transit.

 Vulcan wrote:

And then there's the Kobyashi Maru, a NEUTRONIC FUEL CARRIER...

Which existed in the 23rd Star Trek century, separate from the 24th Star Trek century. Star Trek technology advances, Star Wars technology does not.

Well, that's part of the Federation, is it not?

That's ANOTHER part of the problem involving the SW/ST fight. ST canon covers over a century and a half with widely varying technological levels. So... WHICH Federation is the Empire facing? Enterprise era? TOS/TAS? TOS movies? TNG? DS9/TNG movies? Voyager? All have different capabilities, some of which are less technological and more every bit as technobabble as SW technology.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Not because of the length of travel time, it was because she was going to be hiding out for an extended period.

That isn't explained, all we hear is that Anakin is supposed to protect Padme.

Did you miss the part of the movie where they SHOWED Anakin and Padme staying on Naboo for an extended period? I'll grant you, those scenes were pretty awful, but they were there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
OK.

A mug of tea.

Tea.

Earl Grey.

Hot.

Rather than boil water with fire and mix in leaves like some kind of barbarian, the Federation finds it much more efficient to convert some of the ship's excess energy to matter.

How much energy do they need to do that?

250 g of tea, plug it into E=MC^2

https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/emc2

And get 22,468,879,468 megajoules. That seems like a lot of energy.

I wonder what that would be in explosive energy?

http://extraconversion.com/energy/megajoules/megajoules-to-tons-explosive.html

5,258,126 tons, or 5 megatons for short.

To.
Make.
Tea.
Earl Grey.
Hot.

I remember seeing an interview with the Captain of the USS Nimitz (a nuclear carrier). He mentioned that his top speed was 30 knots. But that he could only sustain that for... 20 years or so. Nuclear carrier y'know.

The Enterprise can spare 5 megatons of energy to make tea for each and every crewmember.

The Empire is not even playing on their level. It's not just coal dreadnoughts vs nuclear subs, it's more like sailing galleys vs nuclear carriers.

How does this get buried with no responses? This, combined with everything stated about FTL strafing runs, leaves this as a non-debate.


Actually, the game ender goes like this: The Federation does some in depth research about the personnel of the Empire, collecting everything from assignments to duty stations. They go to all the planets of the Empire, use the transporters to obtain the patterns of the sisters of all the Imperial ships' officers. Fly up, beam copies of them aboard the ship that houses their siblings, and when they open mouth kiss their siblings (This is canon, after all. It appeared on film.) the Federation ships use the distraction to take the Imperial fleet apart. Finis.

Sure, when the generation ships the Federation would need to use to REACH the SW galaxy finally get there in five hundred years or so. In the meantime Palpatine has already manipulated the various factions of the ST galaxy to fight to exhaustion and then either welcomed him as peacemaker (think an intergalactic 'Federation' to preserve peace)... or died in the war.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Which has no evidence, and directly contradicts other examples of hyperdrive being extremely fast.

There are hyperdrive classes, that's why the Falcon is stupidly fast relative to everything else in Star Wars. Though we don't know what ".5 past lightspeed" actually is.

For what it's worth the old West End game has classes of Hyperdrive with lower numbers being faster. It a trip takes 1 day with a class 1 drive, it takes 2 days with a class 2 drive, 5 days with a class 5 drive etc. Most ships, in addition to a main drive had a backup class 10 drive as well. So if your drive went down you could still get somewhere, just not all that fast.

The Falcon has a Class .5 drive, which more or less makes the .5 past light speed line work. More or less.

There's also the arguments that either Han was spouting nonsense because he doesn't know what's he's talking about, or he was spouting nonsense to see if the rubes he'd picked up were smart enough to get it. In that version the farmboy is probably eating it all up while the former Jedi is silently laughing his ass off

I seem to remember Ben rolling his eyes at that point...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
How does this get buried with no responses?

Because it isn't a very compelling argument. It makes major assumptions about how replicators work, and even the 5 megaton conclusion is still well short of the 200 gigatons of a single shot from a Clone Wars era troop transport. The fact that it's "just tea" doesn't mean anything, it's quite possible that, like the aircraft carrier he mentions, the Enterprise's power supply runs at a fixed output 24/7. So when not firing weapons or using higher levels of engine power there's a lot of energy left over for frivolous things like making tea the stupidly over-complicated way. But that doesn't necessarily get the peak output up to Star Wars levels.

But we never see those 200 gigaton shots or anything like that, we see ray guns that can damage but not destroy unshielded fighters and freighters.

Yes we do. We see a turbolaser shot vaporize an asteroid during the Hoth asteroid field sequence. Just like we see a pair of photon torpedoes do the same in the wormhole sequence of Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

The weapons are demonstrated ON FILM as being comparable in destructive power. There is no arguing around this, it's RIGHT THERE ON FILM. So when ST weapons have trouble destroying a fighter or freighter, that just demonstrates that SW weapons of the same period will ALSO have a hard time destroying said fighter or freighter.

Of course, this assumes the weapon that is having trouble destroying freighters and/or fighters is the main battery turbolasers mounted on those turrets flanking the superstructure, and not the secondary batteries along the rim of the ship, which we see firing in RotJ at Endor. It may be a hit from a primary batter would vaporize the fighter with ease... and the Imperials didn't use them because they wanted prisoners to interrogate. Or maybe the primaries do, indeed, have major problems targeting a small ship; this is assumed in the RPG, but never explicitly stated anywhere in the movies.

It also assumes that it was the main battery vaporizing that asteroid and not a secondary battery. If it was a secondary battery, well, one can assume the main battery would be a LOT more powerful than the secondaries, and that means the Federation is in a lot more trouble.

I'll grant you Next Gen stuff is probably more potent. But as so much else in this discussion, there's no way to prove HOW MUCH more potent. And if we're going to argue eras... how much damage might those heavy cannon on the Dreadnaught or Snoke's flagship do, especially at the very short dogfighting ranges Star Trek ships prefer to fight at instead of at the VERY LONG range (for both universes) we see them used at in TLJ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Star Wars has Jar Jar and prequel Anakin

At least Wesley never complained about sand

You've got me on that one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Are we still ignoring the 690 gigaton figure for photon torpedoes?

Depends. Are we going to ignore the turbolasers destroying an asteriod just like the photon torpeodes do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The brute force is exaggerated though. Just look at the MF running from an ISD for quite a long time. Being shot the whole time by a ship 1000 times larger than it - not being destroyed. In startrek a few photon torpedos would have destroyed such a pathetic ship.

You assume they WANTED to destroy the Millennium Falcon. Given that Darth Vader EXPLICITLY ordered Boba Fett to capture them ALIVE, I think it's safe to assume he also issued the same orders to the forces under his direct command.

I don't know about you, but if I commanded an ISD under Vader, or even was a gunnery officer under Vader, I would NOT want to have to report back to him saying 'yeah, we blew them up so they wouldn't get away.' In fact, I'd go well out of my way to make sure I MISSED with every shot just to be safe. The gunners who DID hit the Falcon were taking a big risk with their own lives...

Now if numbers count- one planet from Star Wars, Kamino, can clone 200,000 of those Space Wizards every decade. If the Federation can't win in the first decade, we could have an army of Space Wizards.

Heck, an army of cloned bounty hunters killed the last army of Space Wizards in Star Wars. What could you do with that many Space Wizards?