Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Eh. You can go to the shops or get someone to deliver your groceries for a fee. You can buy pre-grated cheese for a little extra.

Charging for stuff that’s free elsewhere isn’t inherently evil. For some people it’s a useful and appropriate service. If it’s not for you just move along.

Anyways, we will be announcing our next tourney hopefully today. An 80 man player event with huge prize support. Hope to see some players from dakka and Europe attend.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Charging for stuff that’s free elsewhere isn’t inherently evil.

Charging money for something that is free elsewhere isn't inherently evil. The issue is that most of their customers are going to be clueless newbies who don't yet realize how easy it is to get the service for free, or have any way of evaluating how qualified the seller is to provide it. It's clearly not going to rank very high on the scale of corporate evil, but let's not pretend that the OP isn't preying on newbies and dumping a bunch of advertising spam on the forum in the process.

Good luck getting 1 on 1 talk for free about how to use the army though.

And if you look at the netlists you will see basically same variations everywhere. What about list that's made with competive mind with specific build?

They are in for a business. Bohoo. If there's demand for it there's supply. If there's no demand supply goes. As long as it's not illegal if there's demand it's fair play. That's how capitalism works. If you want to change that start up a revolution and topple down capitalism.

The issue is that most of their customers are going to be clueless newbies who don't yet realize how easy it is to get the service for free

If you ask for advice on Dakka, 3 people will give you 3 casual opinions and 5 people will tell you to play Eldar or AM instead of your army. No, it's almost impossible to get this service for free, especially if you're new and can't judge what is good advice and what is bollocks.
Also, getting advice from a good tournament player goes beyond pure listbuilding, there's a lot of other things a newbie probably never thought about that are very important.

 Peregrine wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Charging for stuff that’s free elsewhere isn’t inherently evil.

Charging money for something that is free elsewhere isn't inherently evil. The issue is that most of their customers are going to be clueless newbies who don't yet realize how easy it is to get the service for free, or have any way of evaluating how qualified the seller is to provide it. It's clearly not going to rank very high on the scale of corporate evil, but let's not pretend that the OP isn't preying on newbies and dumping a bunch of advertising spam on the forum in the process.

How are clueless newbies going to evaluate the qualifications of people offering free advice online? Frankly, most of them aren't qualified in the slightest.

I suspect that their customers are mostly going to be semi-experienced players preparing for their first major tournament who have realized that the overwhelming majority of online list building advice is garbage.

Ushtarador wrote:
, there's a lot of other things a newbie probably never thought about that are very important.

Yep. Some things are easy to miss out just from reading codex entries. For example yesterday it really dawned on me just how bloody usefull those 5 grot crews on mek kannons can be. Tempted to start putting KMK's close to each other when LOS allows and then start heading away with all but one squad(that can control several KMK's). Those 5 strong grots with no guns are actually surprisingly usefull...Obviously ability to go for objectives is good. Also can be used as small screens/roadblock. And they are surprisingly hard to shoot since they need to be closest model. And that can REALLY put spanner on shooting characters. And clearing grots so that the unit can shoot at character can be tricky as the other unit needs to be closer to grots than some other unit...

I don't even want to guess what some tau or tyranids can do that's not quite as obvious just from reading army list or codex.

Having looked at their site, it does have something to offer, something to add to the stable of sites to visit for a "state of the meta" so is "worth" posting and advertising their existence to an obvious site of potential customers.

As for the list service, some of the arguments have some merit for the first tier list build offer but it IS rather inexpensive.
Time spent on Skype with a customer or creating a video for use is time consuming so has some merit for effort put in, not just some netlist regurgitated out.
How expert the advice is remains to be seen but what articles they have published show many good points so I would not anticipate a problem.
I have seen as chew on the occasional list here, just like on the web, you really have to look at the pedigree of the person giving the advice to figure out if it is worth doing some test trials.


A few of us have been around for a while and tend to get all bent out of shape when we see click-bait no matter how worthy it may be: we feel so used...

I keep thinking the magnifying glass and the hammer be the symbols of the site: they each are "icons" loaded with meaning and the "glass" is a common symbol to search with and the hammer... to crush your opponents or possibly to build... anyway I am getting pedantic.
I keep thinking of "glass cannon" and it't meaning and the obvious Thor hammer look so moving away slightly may be good.

Thanks for the feedback. As for who we are, well we are all big tournament winners. I won the LVO in 2016 for example so our experience is quite big. We aim to bring out plenty of free content and will continue to do so with an added option for people to use the list service if they wish.

I think a bit of credit to Glasshammer tbh.
Myself and Alex have bumped heads a couple of times on here (I'm ITC, hes ETC. Two different factions which tend to duel a bit) my main complaint being ETC seemed a bit secretive, a boys club and the rules were hard to find.
To his credit he responded that they were working to resolve that and they have now put out this site which does indeed lay the ETC out in the open for everybody. Having read through it I actually like a lot of the content they have put out.

More competition in the online market with regards to stores is a good thing, keeps everybody on their toes and offering the best prices with good service. Best of luck with it.

The articles are interesting to me too. They know their stuff and are making a few brave decisions. I certainly wouldn't be explaining how my army list worked two weeks before the largest event in the UK.

Hope to see the site grow and do well.

With regards to the list building service, it'll either work or it won't. Personally its not for me. I like to play an army, get a feel for what works and what doesn't and fine tune based on that. Not really a fan of dropping on the new hotness or picking up a list someone else wrote. But thats my personal preference and I am fortunate enough to be able to play a lot and thus have opportunity to see things for myself and make my own informed decisions.
Theres guys who attend events at my club who play much, much less and they do tend to 'netlist' a bit to get started then tweak. I think for someone like that its a good service.
I strongly disagree that its trying to take advantage of anybody. Ultimately its the customers cash, they earnt it themselves, if they want some guys who know their stuff to help them out then thats their perogative.

Thanks for the feedback Sneggy.
Yes agreed, we have done and I can come accross as arrogant when it comes to comparisons but both ETC and ITC have its merits, the issue is the system wasn't as easily available, which thanks to that discussion, has been rectified.

We are just starting and are juggling our real jobs with this and prepping for tournaments so the content we want to do (More video battle reports and tactics etc) will be coming out slowly but once we have it all setup, it will be a constant thing.

Im not fussed if people know about my army, they still have to beat me haha.

Thanks.

Sneggy wrote:
Theres guys who attend events at my club who play much, much less and they do tend to 'netlist' a bit to get started then tweak. I think for someone like that its a good service.

I get to play once a week generally(and 2h max at that). Maybe another game. Then once every 2-3 months tournament. Certainly would make tinkering and experimenting hard(plus the fact I virtually never play same list or even similar twice in a row if I can avoid it)

Initial impressions:

Looks clean, though it's a little bit bland and devoid of character. Whitespace is good but there's perhaps a little too much of it.

There's a typo or misspelling in the Boomsticks title which doesn't give the best impression of your site. It may seem like a minor thing but you lose credibility quickly with that sort of error

It's not immediately clear what your relationship to the ETC is. There's an ETC section but is that because you're somehow affiliated with them officially or just a helpful set of links?

The image on the Team page is too big, causing screen stretching issues.

A stock indication on the store page would be a good addition. At the moment I have to click on an actual item to see if it's in stock

I don't really understand the attitude people have towards the list writing service. It's not something I'd ever use and I question whether it will ever be successful but that's no reason to equate it with killing puppies for cash.

Good luck with the site.

My main criticism of the site... The way that the bottom and top of your menu items are animated differently, on hover, bugs me, on a level akin to nails on a blackboard.

My Thoughts on paid list building:

1. I don't mind people providing a service and making a buck out of it.
2. I don't know if there is a market for it to be viable.
3. I think it might be a good marketing tool if you had a recording of an example experience, to give clarity to what you provide.
4. The live stream premium service is interesting, in that, I would expect if someone wants to drop serious cash on this, then they might not want their new shiny list leaking all over a public forum effectively making it a netlist before the customer gets chance to buy it.
5. At a purely selfish level, I don't particularly want this venture to take off, as I don't want to go to an event and play 5 people who have all been coached by Alex or Mani (subsequently handing me my ass), and the inevitable reduction in diversity that will come, if these services become more popular. (essentially net listing turned up to 11).

Overall I wish you guys success building a good strong community.

So, I’m a little torn on the list writing side of things – simply because of my own mindset. While it is good to get advice/thoughts from others, it isn’t always possible to convey the exact thoughts and details. As you can see on this site alone, it often leads to “drop this unit because it is bad and add this unit in because it is “OP””, without much consideration beyond people following the crowd.

On the other hand, just looking at a good chunk of the lists submitted for the LGT, you can see that there is potential for a list writing service to do well. The amount of incorrect lists submitted is far in excess of what I’d have personally thought possible beforehand. Maybe I was just, more than a little, naïve, in people’s ability and understanding.

The only thing I would say in regards to the service, and tactical insight is it’s need of a disclaimer. No matter how good the list created for you is, you’re still going to lose games with it. It is simply a fact, that most people seem to ignore. I could build what I considered to be the “best list ever” and tell you how to play it, but in a random format (like ETC with their Maelstrom aspect) things can always turn against you. Lists, random objectives, dice rolls, player ability etc are all things to be aware of.

Slipspace wrote:Initial impressions:

Looks clean, though it's a little bit bland and devoid of character. Whitespace is good but there's perhaps a little too much of it.

There's a typo or misspelling in the Boomsticks title which doesn't give the best impression of your site. It may seem like a minor thing but you lose credibility quickly with that sort of error

It's not immediately clear what your relationship to the ETC is. There's an ETC section but is that because you're somehow affiliated with them officially or just a helpful set of links?

The image on the Team page is too big, causing screen stretching issues.

A stock indication on the store page would be a good addition. At the moment I have to click on an actual item to see if it's in stock

I don't really understand the attitude people have towards the list writing service. It's not something I'd ever use and I question whether it will ever be successful but that's no reason to equate it with killing puppies for cash.

Good luck with the site.

Thanks for the feedback
1) The Glashammer Gaming site is white because that is the colour of the logo. We wanted to keep it clean and simple. Its still in development but we are trying to keep it simple.
2) Ok Ill let him know so he can change it but we have let authors post up their own articles without spellchecking everything. As we have only a few articles, there should at least be someone to check this so I will speak to the team.
3) We are not endorsed by them, however we are becoming the new face of the ETC, just like FLG is the face of the ITC. We have some plans going forwards with the ETC but for now it is the hub of its rules pack and FAQ.
4) Is that on your phone? We aren’t website developers so its all new to us and will take a lot of trial and error. Ill let Dan know so he can take a look but it looks fine on my phone.
5) Fair point. Ill let Dan know and see if he has time to sort that out. Its not a full time job and implementing that option could be a large process.

Thanks

secretForge wrote:My main criticism of the site... The way that the bottom and top of your menu items are animated differently, on hover, bugs me, on a level akin to nails on a blackboard.

My Thoughts on paid list building:

1. I don't mind people providing a service and making a buck out of it.
2. I don't know if there is a market for it to be viable.
3. I think it might be a good marketing tool if you had a recording of an example experience, to give clarity to what you provide.
4. The live stream premium service is interesting, in that, I would expect if someone wants to drop serious cash on this, then they might not want their new shiny list leaking all over a public forum effectively making it a netlist before the customer gets chance to buy it.
5. At a purely selfish level, I don't particularly want this venture to take off, as I don't want to go to an event and play 5 people who have all been coached by Alex or Mani (subsequently handing me my ass), and the inevitable reduction in diversity that will come, if these services become more popular. (essentially net listing turned up to 11).

Overall I wish you guys success building a good strong community.

Thanks for the feedback.

1) Glad to hear a level headed response.
2) We aren’t expecting to make a living off this, just a simple service for people to use.
3) Once we have sufficient time to figure out how to create a well presented video we can do just that.
4) The stream will be private to that person so we will go through the whole game and tactics to go with such army. The lists we create aren’t going to be net lists as we don’t simply write an army already there but something unique or an added twist.
5) Haha, I see where you’re coming from but it’s no different to people finding an (old) list online or discussing it on the forums. Instead you get advice on why we picked those units, how the army works and what makes it work. It’s a bit different, but our aim is so you do player more people who are good with their lists and at the game.

Thank you. First and foremost this is for the community with a small added service to those who wish to utilise it.

Kdash wrote:So, I’m a little torn on the list writing side of things – simply because of my own mindset. While it is good to get advice/thoughts from others, it isn’t always possible to convey the exact thoughts and details. As you can see on this site alone, it often leads to “drop this unit because it is bad and add this unit in because it is “OP””, without much consideration beyond people following the crowd.

On the other hand, just looking at a good chunk of the lists submitted for the LGT, you can see that there is potential for a list writing service to do well. The amount of incorrect lists submitted is far in excess of what I’d have personally thought possible beforehand. Maybe I was just, more than a little, naïve, in people’s ability and understanding.

The only thing I would say in regards to the service, and tactical insight is it’s need of a disclaimer. No matter how good the list created for you is, you’re still going to lose games with it. It is simply a fact, that most people seem to ignore. I could build what I considered to be the “best list ever” and tell you how to play it, but in a random format (like ETC with their Maelstrom aspect) things can always turn against you. Lists, random objectives, dice rolls, player ability etc are all things to be aware of.

1) If someone gets a list there is also a follow up as to why the units are chosen, how the lists interacts on the table top and how it works against the current and potential future meta (ETC teams tend to direct the UK meta). This means that the details are there, but perhaps not the exact thoughts. That comes with the Skype service where you can get exactly what you need from the development of the list.
2) I agree there are many mistakes made and some people don’t even know about the new FAQ points changes. I also see a lot of out-dated lists and lists which perhaps wont work as well as people think in the LGT rulespack. Things like this are taken into consideration upon a list design request.
3) Good point, I will add the disclaimer to the post when I have some time as it is a valid point

Thank you for the feedback.

I wonder about how much detail we can get in the basic list service. For example, if I listed all the models I have, would you create a list out of that selection?

Zustiur wrote:
I wonder about how much detail we can get in the basic list service. For example, if I listed all the models I have, would you create a list out of that selection?

Ill be putting up some feedback from the people I have worked with but the basic service gets you:

A detailed explanation of the list and how it works
Designed around specifications i.e. if you want a specific unit or just revolved around the models you own
Well typed out in a readable format so you can see how many CPs you get from it, what each unit cost is, what detachments were used etc.
What strategems, powers or abilities help the list work
A follow up email if you prefer it to head in a slightly different direction.

Hope that helps.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
New post on blocking:

https://www.glasshammergaming.co.uk/2018/05/09/harrisons-tactics-corner-blocking/

Our next List Analysis series is up on the website, with a guest article. Neil Powell from ETC Team Scotland discusses his Ork army for the upcoming LGT 40k Tournament. Check it out here:

https://www.glasshammergaming.co.uk/2018/05/11/list-analysis-neil-powells-lgt-orks-army/