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Hey guys,

been hanging out for the DW changes for a while now. Not heaps pumped for the primaris push of the last couple of previews, but I was definitely super excited for a look at the stratagems.

Having seen them now I'm.... underwhelmed.

Seven of our strats are taken up in our Doctrines... What? That should have been one strat, sure, but seven different ones??

The Xenos specific strats - some of them are very strong, so this isn't a gripe about how powerful they are (though a couple seem pretty useless). More than anything it's that again they're very situational. Most of them you will use once, maybe twice per game, only if/when you're versing that Xenos. Considering that xenos is probably around 1/3 of armies, that's another 5 stratagems that you probably won't be using, or if you happen to be versing xenos then you might use one of them a couple of times.

I'm assuming we'll still have the standard marine ones on top of those (if not then God help us, we'll have absolutely nothing else to spend CPs on), but really, that's still pretty underwhelming.

Considering the unique strats that the other Marine chapters have (BA specific ones are amazing, DA still has some great ones and Vanilla have all their specific RG/Ultra etc ones) we really end up with our "unique" strats being that we can change the target of our doctrines, and if we're lucky we get one other one. And very few of the common marine ones find regular play.

Looks like DW are mostly going to be using them on their doctrines, or just for re-rolls. I'm still holding out hope for the boys in black.

look again at the seven strats - theyre not changing mission tactics, they're adding 1 to wound rolls...which stacks with the mission tactic.

It's effectively double cost VOTLW that can be used multiple times in a turn.

Deatwatch alone will never cut it, but they will be a really interesting addition to any imperial soup.

Yeah sorry I did just adjust it before seeing your comment, but still, why is that 7 different strats? It basically means this is the only strat outside of CP re-rolls that we will be using, apart from very rare and exceptional circumstances.

Spoletta, I think you're right. With the nerfs to soup it's surprising that GW would push us in that direction but it seems that's how it's going. Funny that they mention taking a DW Brigade, almost as if they're completely unaware of how many points that would actually cost.

DW are going to have hands down the most effective guns of any marine force.

Two Battalions will be a must with the CP regen trait.

Again, not really a complaint about the power or effectiveness of the army. Just that really our 12 "unique stratagems" are so uncreative.

On the plus side, every other army will know exactly what our 1 stratagem is - "now I get +1 to wound against that" - repeat till CPs are spent.

I mean there's power here. The army basically list tailors itself to fight your opponent's Xenos style.

Hey you've brought loads of Drukhari Kabalites on jetbikes and stuff? Ok, well... I get to shoot you in your movement phase if you come near me, and I am shooting with +1 to wound, rerolling 1's.

I can get the +1 to wound on other units as well, if needed.

Then when the main flying threat is dead I spend a CP to change tactic so I get the rerolls against the Heavy Support or HQs or whatever.

The problems will be:

a) you take deathwatch and your opponent brings Daemons. Yeah you're gimped.
b) your opponent is smart and make you waste CPs toggling between styles... perhaps by making it so that you can't effectively target the types of unit you've set up for? But you can still get the +1 to wound and still have high AP.
c) They will still mainly be 25-50 point 1 wound models that die to a wet fart

 Silentz wrote:
I mean there's power here. The army basically list tailors itself to fight your opponent's Xenos style.

Hey you've brought loads of Drukhari Kabalites on jetbikes and stuff? Ok, well... I get to shoot you in your movement phase if you come near me, and I am shooting with +1 to wound, rerolling 1's.

I can get the +1 to wound on other units as well, if needed.

Then when the main flying threat is dead I spend a CP to change tactic so I get the rerolls against the Heavy Support or HQs or whatever.

The problems will be:

a) you take deathwatch and your opponent brings Daemons. Yeah you're gimped.
b) your opponent is smart and make you waste CPs toggling between styles... perhaps by making it so that you can't effectively target the types of unit you've set up for? But you can still get the +1 to wound and still have high AP.
c) They will still mainly be 25-50 point 1 wound models that die to a wet fart

I think the Aeldari one is pretty bad, it's rather trivial to make that extra shooting be made at -2 to hit or more.

superwill wrote:
Again, not really a complaint about the power or effectiveness of the army. Just that really our 12 "unique stratagems" are so uncreative.

On the plus side, every other army will know exactly what our 1 stratagem is - "now I get +1 to wound against that" - repeat till CPs are spent.

Yea that's fair - hopefully they just have lots more than usual. But you have to admit the xenos focused ones are pretty novel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Imateria wrote:

I think the Aeldari one is pretty bad, it's rather trivial to make that extra shooting be made at -2 to hit or more.

I don't see that one getting used much anyway unless, like they mentioned, you want to shoot down incoming raiders.

 Imateria wrote:

I think the Aeldari one is pretty bad, it's rather trivial to make that extra shooting be made at -2 to hit or more.

Uhhhhh I didn't take in that that stratagem was -1 to hit. Yeah that's not super strong.

 Silentz wrote:

a) you take deathwatch and your opponent brings Daemons. Yeah you're gimped.

Better than sending the Grey Knights in though, amiright?

The Eldar one is pretty disappointing. Whoever things its a good idea to put a -1 to hit vs anything Eldar is huffin a bit of glue.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Silentz wrote:

a) you take deathwatch and your opponent brings Daemons. Yeah you're gimped.

Better than sending the Grey Knights in though, amiright?

The Eldar one is pretty disappointing. Whoever things its a good idea to put a -1 to hit vs anything Eldar is huffin a bit of glue.

Luckily, Deathwatch has plenty of guns that hit automatically, which might help. Codex Frag cannon baby.

the_scotsman wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Silentz wrote:

a) you take deathwatch and your opponent brings Daemons. Yeah you're gimped.

Better than sending the Grey Knights in though, amiright?

The Eldar one is pretty disappointing. Whoever things its a good idea to put a -1 to hit vs anything Eldar is huffin a bit of glue.

Luckily, Deathwatch has plenty of guns that hit automatically, which might help. Codex Frag cannon baby.

I mean, sure, if the Eldar want to get within 8" of the Frag Cannons they're most certainly dead, sure.

 LunarSol wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Silentz wrote:

a) you take deathwatch and your opponent brings Daemons. Yeah you're gimped.

Better than sending the Grey Knights in though, amiright?

The Eldar one is pretty disappointing. Whoever things its a good idea to put a -1 to hit vs anything Eldar is huffin a bit of glue.

Luckily, Deathwatch has plenty of guns that hit automatically, which might help. Codex Frag cannon baby.

I mean, sure, if the Eldar want to get within 8" of the Frag Cannons they're most certainly dead, sure.

Strat only works at 12" anyway, even if it's only a deterrent I can see it having some use, but there's also stuff like inferno heavy bolters, whatever the special combi-flamer thing is, the shotgun auto-hit round, etc. Deathwatch has a lot of autohitting weapons.

The strategems look fine, though they're kind of expensive. I think bring a guard CP battery will be nearly essential.

It's not like everyone has the same fixed count of strategems, and the +1 to wound ones are much better off separated, since now can pop multiple in a turn.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
DW are going to have hands down the most effective guns of any marine force.

Two Battalions will be a must with the CP regen trait.

I have to agree with this and think it can breathe some new life into the Astartes.

I think the anti Ork and anti Reanimation Protocol ones are cool. And I play Orkz.

The anti tau marker light is a nice deterrent. Too bad most of them are such short ranged and require the opponent to be targeting DW units only.

You'd think that Tanglefoot Grenades would work the same way for Deathwatch as they do for Custodes...


...but that would be sensible.

"Strats?" Do they play like noise marines now?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I think the anti Ork and anti Reanimation Protocol ones are cool. And I play Orkz.

The anti tau marker light is a nice deterrent. Too bad most of them are such short ranged and require the opponent to be targeting DW units only.

My question on the Ork one is: Does it last the phase or just one firing of overwatch. One of those super screws orks, and the other one is ok but not amazing..

 Imateria wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
I mean there's power here. The army basically list tailors itself to fight your opponent's Xenos style.

Hey you've brought loads of Drukhari Kabalites on jetbikes and stuff? Ok, well... I get to shoot you in your movement phase if you come near me, and I am shooting with +1 to wound, rerolling 1's.

I can get the +1 to wound on other units as well, if needed.

Then when the main flying threat is dead I spend a CP to change tactic so I get the rerolls against the Heavy Support or HQs or whatever.

The problems will be:

a) you take deathwatch and your opponent brings Daemons. Yeah you're gimped.
b) your opponent is smart and make you waste CPs toggling between styles... perhaps by making it so that you can't effectively target the types of unit you've set up for? But you can still get the +1 to wound and still have high AP.
c) They will still mainly be 25-50 point 1 wound models that die to a wet fart

I think the Aeldari one is pretty bad, it's rather trivial to make that extra shooting be made at -2 to hit or more.

The Necron one isn't great either, if the Necron player is rolling RP at all that's already proof that you're playing with the weaker list.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Silentz wrote:

a) you take deathwatch and your opponent brings Daemons. Yeah you're gimped.

Better than sending the Grey Knights in though, amiright?

The Eldar one is pretty disappointing. Whoever things its a good idea to put a -1 to hit vs anything Eldar is huffin a bit of glue.

I mean when within 12" most things are just going to be a single -1 to hit. SO I would use it with some units against things like shining spears. Spears move in to charge within 12" of my helblasters? Ok I'll shoot them at -1 to hit, and then again in overwatch. If Deathwatch get an ancient I might even overcharge.

superwill wrote:
Yeah sorry I did just adjust it before seeing your comment, but still, why is that 7 different strats? It basically means this is the only strat outside of CP re-rolls that we will be using, apart from very rare and exceptional circumstances.

Spoletta, I think you're right. With the nerfs to soup it's surprising that GW would push us in that direction but it seems that's how it's going. Funny that they mention taking a DW Brigade, almost as if they're completely unaware of how many points that would actually cost.

So you can run multiples in a single phase, obviously.

Breng77 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Silentz wrote:

a) you take deathwatch and your opponent brings Daemons. Yeah you're gimped.

Better than sending the Grey Knights in though, amiright?

The Eldar one is pretty disappointing. Whoever things its a good idea to put a -1 to hit vs anything Eldar is huffin a bit of glue.

I mean when within 12" most things are just going to be a single -1 to hit. SO I would use it with some units against things like shining spears. Spears move in to charge within 12" of my helblasters? Ok I'll shoot them at -1 to hit, and then again in overwatch. If Deathwatch get an ancient I might even overcharge.

That's a good point. I forget they have to be close enough to not gain the benefit from the tactic.

Lemondish wrote:

superwill wrote:
Yeah sorry I did just adjust it before seeing your comment, but still, why is that 7 different strats? It basically means this is the only strat outside of CP re-rolls that we will be using, apart from very rare and exceptional circumstances.

Spoletta, I think you're right. With the nerfs to soup it's surprising that GW would push us in that direction but it seems that's how it's going. Funny that they mention taking a DW Brigade, almost as if they're completely unaware of how many points that would actually cost.

So you can run multiples in a single phase, obviously.

That doesn't warrant the obscene cost for them though. 2 is a lot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

superwill wrote:
Yeah sorry I did just adjust it before seeing your comment, but still, why is that 7 different strats? It basically means this is the only strat outside of CP re-rolls that we will be using, apart from very rare and exceptional circumstances.

Spoletta, I think you're right. With the nerfs to soup it's surprising that GW would push us in that direction but it seems that's how it's going. Funny that they mention taking a DW Brigade, almost as if they're completely unaware of how many points that would actually cost.

So you can run multiples in a single phase, obviously.

That doesn't warrant the obscene cost for them though. 2 is a lot.

Sure, 2 is a decent amount, but I wouldn't say it's obscene (unless you're going to cry salty tears about veterans of the long war). Apparently possible to fill a Brigade, which means probably even easier to fill two Batts. That's 13 CP. Gives you enough to pop them when you need them. All about that adaptability.

Its looking like codex situational to me.

+1 to wound is very powerful - but on one unit its not that great. Its hard to see why they should pay 2 CP when a lot of factions get it for 1 (if on a more limited basis).

Its the same old "how expensive is everything" question. I mean 4 HQs and 6 Troops Units could easily work out being 1200 points for... not very much. In which case I don't care whether you get +1 to wound and reroll 1s. You are just going to be tabled.

Lemondish wrote:
Apparently possible to fill a Brigade....

I wouldn't bet on it. The Warhammer Community Team seem to have no idea how many points people play at or how many points things cost. In that post about how armies like Custodes need more CPs, they suggested that they wanted to reward people who run pure custodes by giving brigades more CPs. Great idea, except that the cheapest brigade is like 3600 points.

Right now the cheapest DW brigade is 2001 points, but needless to say, all the CPs in the world wouldn't make it good. (It's just the cheapest option in every slot with no wargear.)

In any case, people seem to be hoping that there are extra stratagems not mentioned in the post that bring us more than the effectively one useful option. I really hope you're right, but I doubt it.

It costs 2 CP because you can use it on any unit. So LR crusaders, corvus, dreads, terminators....

At least, that's why I think it costs more, less restriction than similar stratagems.

Okay nah I've thought about it a bit more, and now I'm feeling pretty confident that there are a bunch more DW specific stratagems that just haven't been announced yet.

We haven't got any yet for specific units, and really they're not gonna make it so that our only specific ones are 7x doctrines, 5x xenos and then one about the mortal wound ammo.

There's gotta be ones specifically about teams, or corvus', or watchmasters etc. In which case, the doctrines are great. So long as there are still a few legit options outside of "change doctrine", that's fine.