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phydaux wrote:
Can Genestealers and Warriors be counted on to do the "heavy lifting?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, how do Lictors fit in?

Genestealers, absolutely. They are still melee blenders.

Warriors, are debatable.
In close combat they're outdone by genestealers. In shooting they're outdone by devourer gaunts.
However unlike those units, they are generalists that can handle both shooting and close combat. To get the most out of them they really need to be doing both.
Personally I think they suffer from a lack of close combat weapon options that increase their strength above 4, or that do more than 1 damage (toxin sacs don't really count). It would be great if they could take crushing claws, even if it were just 1 for every 3. Maybe next time they re-do the kit they'll add the option.

Lictors remain a bit rubbish sadly.

So here's something I noodled up:

Warriors x 3
Scything Talon & Bonesword

Warriors x 3
Scything Talon & Bonesword

Warriors x 3
Scything Talon & Bonesword

Genestralers x 8
Rending Claws, Acid Maw, Extended Carapace

Genestralers x 8
Rending Claws, Acid Maw, Extended Carapace

Genestralers x 8
Rending Claws, Acid Maw, Extended Carapace

Hormagaunts x 12

Hormagaunts x 12

Hormagaunts x 12

Termagaunts x 12

Termagaunts x 12

Termagaunts x 12

Gargoyles x 12

Gargoyles x 12

Gargoyles x 12


That comes in around 1200 points. I could toss in a couple of Broodlords to take it to 1500. That would add more synapse and some more killing power, since right now all the heavy lifting is being done by Warriors and Genestealers. If I'm right Broodlords have few enough wounds to allow regular infantry to screen them, and that's a key to this lists success - Lots of cheap, fast little bugs to block LOS to the killers. That, and very nearly NO shooting. Just fast, cruncha muncha, yum yum, eat 'em up assaulty goodness.

That's 17 drops, 143 infantry models in 1500 points.

Thoughts?

You're better off taking genestealers, hormagaunts, termagants, and gargoyles in big units, rather than lots of little ones.

Genestealers in particular really benefit from the extra attack they each get when there are at least 10 models in the unit.
It's less important with the other units, as they aren't killy enough for re-rolling wounds of 1 to make a big difference. Still, if you can do so, why not.

If you can spare the points, it really is worth taking deathspitters on those warriors. Melee only warriors are outperformed by genestealers. They need to also shoot to be worthwhile.

Also, extended carapace is rarely worth taking on genestealers. You get an improved save, at the expense of your ability to advance and then charge. That ability is far better than the save.
The only time extended carapace is worth a look is in a Jormangundr detachment, where you can get genestealers with a 3+ save. Even then, it's a hard sell.

Yeah, I was basing my unit size off of how many models I got in one box.

I stand by my opinion that warriors are great. The basic deathspitter/bonesword warrior goes for 26 pts, or 28 with adrenal glands. That's peanuts really. What you get for these points is a model with 3 wounds (excellent vs overcharged plasma compared to terminators), With a portable assault 24" heavy bolter in hands and with 3 attacks with Ws3+ and ap-2. Additionally this model is immune to morale AND makes everything else around it immune to morale. For extra service, you also get to annoy enemy psykers with the shadow in the warp too. Also for every 3 models you can give a guy d3 missile shots on an assault platform. And as an icing on the cake, these guys are Troops.

Next to a Prime their only penalty (BS 4+) becomes obsolete, AND they hit on a 2+ in close combat. It will not happen often, but their WS 2+, 3 attacks @ str 4 and ap-2 per model is a great deterrent so that nobody comes charging and you are left free to keep blasting people with your heavy bolters.

Damn good unit.

It's 27 points for a deathspitter/bonesword warrior, not 26.
5 points for the deathspitter, 2 for the bonesword.

Arson Fire wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, tyranids aren't a horde army. At least no more than they are a bunch of other things.
They can include horde units if the list calls for them, but using a gigantic mob of infantry to run around the table killing stuff is orks thing, not ours.

That's failure in part of codex to allow playstyle that's iconic of tyranids. Background wise they are pretty much THE horde. Even orks can't counter them in sheer numbers.

BTW one issue this kind of army will suffer is...Time. In tournaments you can run out of time way too soon. Though that's actually good for horde armies as they benefit the less turns game goes. Just something to keep in mind.

 Kharneth wrote:
My group doesn't use objectives.

You had me on board till this.

Though with random tactical objectives, there's a chance that you could go the whole game with out getting a "control an objective" card. To me 8th edition is all about preventing my opponent from doing things. A super mass of Gaunts flying across the table to tar pit an opponent sounds delightfully evil.

So Arson, how about something like this:

Broodlord

Broodlord

Broodlord

Warriors x 3
Scything Talon & Bonesword

Warriors x 3
Scything Talon & Bonesword

Warriors x 3
Scything Talon & Bonesword

Genestralers x 12
Rending Claws, Acid Maw

Genestralers x 12
Rending Claws, Acid Maw

Hormagaunts x 18

Hormagaunts x 18

Termagaunts x 18

Termagaunts x 18

Gargoyles x 18

Gargoyles x 18

I know I've still got no shooting on my Warriors, but that's the theme I'm going for.

Only 12 drops this time

Better, but still lots of room for improvement.

Consider Broodlords for instance. Each one of them costs as much as 13.5 genestealers.
Sure you do need HQs, and they are able to cast a power each while also being good in combat. But are they as good in combat as 13.5 genestealers?

A broodlord is decent. Three of them seems like too many points that could instead go into increasing your genestealer unit sizes to 20, and giving you more little guys besides.
If you're looking for a second HQ to fill out that battalion, consider a neurothrope. Less than half the price of a broodlord, while still bringing psychic buffs to the table. Sure it does nothing in combat, but the points it saves gives you more stuff to make up for that.

I don't think I can lay claim to a Battalion because I've got no Heavies and no Elites.

For Elites I was thinking three Lictors. For Heavies I was thinking Carnifexes. Yeah that breaks my theme of no Monstrous Creatures, but it would flesh out a battalion. Plus I figure the 'Fexes would act as decoys, drawing fire away from the little guys.

And who knows? It could be that the 'Fexes reach enemy lines and lay waste, or claim objectives. Not bad for decoy units.

tneva82 wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, tyranids aren't a horde army. At least no more than they are a bunch of other things.
They can include horde units if the list calls for them, but using a gigantic mob of infantry to run around the table killing stuff is orks thing, not ours.

That's failure in part of codex to allow playstyle that's iconic of tyranids. Background wise they are pretty much THE horde. Even orks can't counter them in sheer numbers.

BTW one issue this kind of army will suffer is...Time. In tournaments you can run out of time way too soon. Though that's actually good for horde armies as they benefit the less turns game goes. Just something to keep in mind.

Well, then it's been a "failure" of every Nids codex dating back to when I started playing the game then, so you may as well just say it's simply not what they do, gameplay wise. Lore is a different thing.

topaxygouroun i wrote:I stand by my opinion that warriors are great. The basic deathspitter/bonesword warrior goes for 26 pts, or 28 with adrenal glands. That's peanuts really. What you get for these points is a model with 3 wounds (excellent vs overcharged plasma compared to terminators), With a portable assault 24" heavy bolter in hands and with 3 attacks with Ws3+ and ap-2. Additionally this model is immune to morale AND makes everything else around it immune to morale. For extra service, you also get to annoy enemy psykers with the shadow in the warp too. Also for every 3 models you can give a guy d3 missile shots on an assault platform. And as an icing on the cake, these guys are Troops.

Next to a Prime their only penalty (BS 4+) becomes obsolete, AND they hit on a 2+ in close combat. It will not happen often, but their WS 2+, 3 attacks @ str 4 and ap-2 per model is a great deterrent so that nobody comes charging and you are left free to keep blasting people with your heavy bolters.

Damn good unit.

Warriors are really good, and have been getting steadily better for the last few editions. They are now in their best shape I've ever seen them. They are also 1pt Adrenal Glands models which is best value AG in the dex with a LARGE lead. They used to be kinda bad and I think some mentality is a holdover from back then, and the fact that they are all rounders and don't do anything particularly to grab attention, which might be responsible for why they are so slept on atm. There's also a belligerent guy in the tactics section who shouts really poor logic at everyone to ever use them and doesn't listen to any rational responses, and accuses anyone who thinks they are good as being low level player (even tournament vets), so that probably discourages people a little as well lol

Warriors are solid, I never feel bad using them, but you definitely need to take advantage of both their shooting and melee capabilities to get your money’s worth, so to speak. I am not a fan of the prime though - he is a bit of a bust. At about 60-70 points he would be reasonable, but he is just a bit meh in combat and has weak durability, so you need to use him as a buffbot, and he is a little too expensive for that role unless you’re taking tons of warriors.

For a horde army, I am a big fan a Kraken. The race trait is amazingly good for a horde army. Combine it with the unique Kraken stratagem and a blob of genestealers and you will be hitting something very hard, very soon. With the new FAQ, I can see a lot of people letting their guards down a bit regarding first turn charges, but Kraken can definitely still pull it off. Kraken also has the best unique relic (chameleonic mutation).

Hydra sounds good in theory, but it has never really worked out for me. There are far too few units that arrive in sufficient numbers to really take advantage of the reroll. The one unit that could really take advantage of it - hormagaunts - need a reroll to wound, not to hit, as they already reroll 1s but can’t wound anything to save their lives. The trait is also totally useless on MCs.

Regardless of what you choose, I recommend taking some Hive guard with impaler cannons. They are great antitank, and can even hide out of LOS. They just solve so many problems at a reasonable cost.

What if I ditched the 'Gaunts & Goyles and went with just Genestealers, Warriors, and Broodlords?

phydaux wrote:
What if I ditched the 'Gaunts & Goyles and went with just Genestealers, Warriors, and Broodlords?

Gaunts do serve a useful purpose, but you might want to just get Termagants at first, as they are pretty darn useful, especially equipped with devourers. Not sure what the fixation on broodlords is, either. They are ok, but is there some reason you don’t like Hive Tyrants?

"is there some reason you don’t like Hive Tyrants?"

Yes.

The enemy can shoot over the heads of the little bugs and hit the TMCs. Broodlords don't count as TMCs so they can be screened from enemy fire by 'Gaunts.

phydaux wrote:
"is there some reason you don’t like Hive Tyrants?"

Yes.

The enemy can shoot over the heads of the little bugs and hit the TMCs. Broodlords don't count as TMCs so they can be screened from enemy fire by 'Gaunts.

Ok, I think that you are making a mistake, but I see where you are coming from at least. I usually run 5 or so MCs, plus other tough-ish units like warriors or Hive guard, so I end up with threat overload for the number of anti-monster weapons in a typical list (do you want to shoot my Hive tyrant that is blasting you with devourers, the Screamer Killer that will charge you next turn, or the Hive Guard that are raining death down on your tanks? Decisions, decisions...)

Nonetheless, I see the appeal of a tyrantless list, and actually ran a causal list the other day that featured a double battalion setup with a broodlord, a neurothrope, a prime and a Malanthrope with Chameleonic mutation as the warlord, then tons of gribblies. It was a pretty fun list to play tbh.

Maxing out the TMCs is one way to go, and it fits with the trend toward MSU that GW seems to be doing its damnedest to cram down out throats.

phydaux wrote:
Maxing out the TMCs is one way to go, and it fits with the trend toward MSU that GW seems to be doing its damnedest to cram down out throats.

7th edition certainly favoured MSU. But I'd say that 8th edition has actually been very much the opposite. A few reasons:

Every gun in a unit can now choose its own target, which weakens one of the main benefits of MSU, as enemy units are no longer forced to direct every weapon at a single tiny target and vastly overkill it.

Objectives are now held by nearby model count, rather than each unit being able to hold one objective.

Big units often have a special ability which is active while there are a certain number of models in the unit.

The player with the fewest number of drops in their list gets a bonus to get first turn.

The assault rules in general favour having large units, so that you can do as much damage as possible per activation.
For instance I've seen 4 squads of 5 harlequins assault a big unit of 20 genestealers. One unit of harlequins attacked and killed a bunch of genestealers, then the genestealers used counter offensive and annihilated all 3 remaining units of harlequins before they could attack.

Agree. The one major rule that prevents maxed out big units is the moral which hits them really hard, while small units are not affected at all.
And that is not an issue with Tyranids, as virtually everything is fearless. And bigger units are much easier to keep fearless as well.

The whole morale thing is a weird 180° in comparision to old editions. It used to be 25% casualties to force a check, which actually benefited big units. Now its the opposite. When did they start doing it this way? I kinda skipped 6th and 7th...


As for the gribbly army:
Termagants and genestealers with untargetable HQs in there are a very swarmy and somewhat effective build.
If you go all out genestealers, the army becomes more fragile and the game will likely end within 2 turns with either you annihilating everything, or if you fail to do so, your assault fizzling out. Gants give the whole blob more staying power.

I would also not go too extreme into just 1-3 units. A few deepstriking absorbers, a bit of fire support, some special units like venomthropes increase your flexibility during a game and act as a force multiplier for the main horde.

For example you do not want to be in a situation where you have to split your blob and send part of it back to grab an objective. Much better to have some cheap units just come out of the ground there and do it for you.

Also a bit of firepower is important. Gants with devourers may already be enough. You need this when you encounter units that are very costly to overwhelm in CC. For example units with autohit weapons, or strong CC abilities. In that case you can focus fire on those and attack the rest instead of being forced to handle every single obstacle the same way.
Again, increased flexibility.

Another bonus to not going MSU is getting more value out of stratagems.

In case you are interested, here is my take on the extra gribbly, no tyrant list:

So the good news is your idea of a huge horde of Tyranids is one what will work. In fact, tournament lists have been moving towards it since the FAQ dropped, because the other strong tricks Tyranids had got weakened.

The bad news is that painting and playing it will take FOREVER.

You want 60 Genestealers, in units of 20. Make sure you figure out how to represent the Acid Maw upgrade-it is free and useful. Scything Talons are optional-they don't get used much but don't cost anything, so it is mostly up to if you like the look of them. Don't take the armor, poison, or adrenal glands upgrades-you want those points for more models.

You want at least one Broodlord. I'm ok with two, I think three is overkill. The Broodlord itself is very much a glass cannon. In order to actually attack something you normally have to expose him, and he is not very durable. However, his aura, which makes Genestealers hit on 2+ instead of 3+, is worth his cost by itself.

You want at least one Malanthrope. This is a Forgeworld HQ model, it costs an arm and a leg, and it is super useful for this style of list. He provides synapse, a -1 to hit aura (short ranged, but your squads are big enough to tail back to him), is a 9 wound character, and has some incidental bonuses. Points wise, he is similar to a Broodlord.

A Kraken Battalion consisting of a Broodlord, a Malanthrope, and 3x20 Genestealers is around 1100 points, fluffy, strong, and fun to play. It can honestly carry maybe half the games you will play by itself, due to how fast Kraken Genestealers move, how hard they hit, and the durability buff from the Malanthrope.

There are a bunch of ways to support this core. Shooty monsters like the Exocrine and Tyranofex, or Hive Guard, or Hive Guard (both weapons options are good but have somewhat different roles), or Flying Hive Tyrants, or lots of medium bugs like Raveners and Warriors, or simply more small bugs.

The simplest thing would be to just double down on the Genestealers. You can put two Broodlords, two Malanthropes, and 116 Genestealers on the table at 2000 points.

Another option is Termagants. A 30 strong Termagant brood, with 10 Devourers, is 160 points. Three of those, plus a Malanthrope and two Neurothropes, is about 750. Run it as a Jorgmudr battalion for the +1 save, combined with the -1 to hit from the Malanthrope, and you have 90 hard to kill models that won't run away and will do reasonable damage to infantry.

I would personally run it as 3 Battalions-Kraken for 'stealers, Jorgmundr for 'gaunts, and Kronos for anti-psycher and Rippers. (Kronos Rippers deep strike onto objectives and mess with casters by enabling the Kronos strat, which has a range of 24" from a Kronos model).

Kraken: Broodlord, Malanthrope, 3x60 Genestealers
Jorgmundr: Malanthrope, Neurothrope, 3x30 Termagant (12 devouerers each)
Kronos: Neurothrope x2, 3x3 Ripper Swarms

This is fast, durable, hits hard. You have 18 CP, and things to use them on. It will hard counter a number of lists, be decent against the field, and struggle against pure tank lists. It lacks any way to deal with flyers, so the odd Fire Raptor will suck, and the 3 Baneblade list and the armored company IG lists will be hard to beat. Your biggest issue is going to be moving all the models and rolling all the dice in less than 2 hours.

The rule of 3 is not a rule, it's a guideline.

It specifically says that they recommend you use it, but it's not a rule. Also, it's only for tournaments. I don't even play at a gaming store. I play with 7 friends from high school in our buddy's shed lol. With that said, I do like to use tournament-legal lists. But still, it's a recommendation, not a hard and fast rule.

Thanks everyone!