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I keep seeing lists with 9 Basilisks for the London GT, bypassing the rule of 3 by using 3 squads of 3 each. I was under the impression unit could only contain 1? Did I miss something?

Pretty sure most Guard tanks can be taken in squadrons. LR can.

Xeno is right. The data sheet states you can have up to 3 per.

The only one that can't is the Manticore.

And the Deathstrike if memory serves, not that anyone ever runs them anyway..

Riggs wrote:
I keep seeing lists with 9 Basilisks for the London GT, bypassing the rule of 3 by using 3 squads of 3 each. I was under the impression unit could only contain 1? Did I miss something?

And now you see why this fabled 0-3 limit does LITERALLY nothing to the actual problem armies.

Guard... especially vehicle guard.... "the actual problem army".

And now you see why nobody should ever take seriously anything from dakkadakka. The delusion is unreal.

But Imperial Guard is the problem army. Imperial lists can't be competitive without them, they themselves encourage boring and one-sided styles of play, and are frontloaded with so much firepower that designing factions to deal with them only causes problems with the game's core to escalate.

Do you seriously think Guard are not an overly powerful army?

ThePorcupine wrote:
Guard... especially vehicle guard.... "the actual problem army".

And now you see why nobody should ever take seriously anything from dakkadakka. The delusion is unreal.

It would genuinely surprise me if half of these people proclaiming 8th is busted have even cracked 20 games yet.

 Fafnir wrote:
But Imperial Guard is the problem army. Imperial lists can't be competitive without them, they themselves encourage boring and one-sided styles of play, and are frontloaded with so much firepower that designing factions to deal with them only causes problems with the game's core to escalate.

Do you seriously think Guard are not an overly powerful army?

Pure guard is not especially powerful. What we do have is the cheapest chaff in the game that other imperium factions love to steal for themselves to protect their "real" units and to generate CP cheaply.

There is merit to the argument that the ignore LOS mechanic for artillery is OP but that is not purely a guard issue, just most noticeable for our faction because we have the best artillery in the game (and rightly so).

TBH, pure guard after the CA nerfs is in a really good spot with a few exceptions VANQUISHER! *COUGH*, not too strong or too weak, its just the other codexes are kind of lacking in comparison. Eldar and Tyranids are about where they should be too, but the Space Marines really got shafted this edition with how the AP system changed.

 Fafnir wrote:

Do you seriously think Guard are not an overly powerful army?

Yeah, pretty much.

w1zard wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
But Imperial Guard is the problem army. Imperial lists can't be competitive without them, they themselves encourage boring and one-sided styles of play, and are frontloaded with so much firepower that designing factions to deal with them only causes problems with the game's core to escalate.

Do you seriously think Guard are not an overly powerful army?

Pure guard is not especially powerful. What we do have is the cheapest chaff in the game that other imperium factions love to steal for themselves to protect their "real" units and to generate CP cheaply.

There is merit to the argument that the ignore LOS mechanic for artillery is OP but that is not purely a guard issue, just most noticeable for our faction because we have the best artillery in the game (and rightly so).

TBH, pure guard after the CA nerfs is in a really good spot with a few exceptions VANQUISHER! *COUGH*, not too strong or too weak, its just the other codexes are kind of lacking in comparison. Eldar and Tyranids are about where they should be too, but the Space Marines really got shafted this edition with how the AP system changed.

Then again I went with my bunch of random dudes thrown in from losing streak to winning streak. With master tactic of stand still and shoot everything 'till they stop moving. Such an amazingly cunning strategy!

Reminds me of warmaster where high elves were so bonkers that simple strategy of ram silver helms down enemy throat defeated 50% size pointed armies with infantry tax(mandatory units) not doing anything but walk around in parade formation.

 meleti wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

Do you seriously think Guard are not an overly powerful army?

Yeah, pretty much.

And he's got a point there. Guard is not getting any meaningful result. It's really good for souping, but in soups you only see guards, mortars and mandatory stuff. Maybe some leman russ or commander tank, but never in squadrons.

Pure guard is far from the top of the competition, you can only get so far with a gunline. Now if you also happen to add some bananas to your list...

What competition, what major tournaments have been run with the 0-3 limit and beta rules yet? Those all served to neuter the current meta and boost guard.

w1zard wrote:
TBH, pure guard after the CA nerfs is in a really good spot with a few exceptions VANQUISHER! *COUGH*, not too strong or too weak, its just the other codexes are kind of lacking in comparison. Eldar and Tyranids are about where they should be too, but the Space Marines really got shafted this edition with how the AP system changed.

I do think Astartes (Chaos and Imperial) should get a -1AP when firing Bolt weapons to account for the larger caliber and better training compared to guard and co. Otherwise the Horus Heresy would have taken even longer to fight...

The_Real_Chris wrote:

w1zard wrote:
TBH, pure guard after the CA nerfs is in a really good spot with a few exceptions VANQUISHER! *COUGH*, not too strong or too weak, its just the other codexes are kind of lacking in comparison. Eldar and Tyranids are about where they should be too, but the Space Marines really got shafted this edition with how the AP system changed.

I do think Astartes (Chaos and Imperial) should get a -1AP when firing Bolt weapons to account for the larger caliber and better training compared to guard and co. Otherwise the Horus Heresy would have taken even longer to fight...

I'm not sure if they need AP-1 but rather that power armour should remove one point of AP. (So AP-1 becomes AP-0, AP-2 becomes AP-1 etc). Well that, and a small points decrease.

I also still don't undertstand how anyone looks at IG and then Alaitoc and think that guard are too good. Pure guard are good but not at all overly powerful, it's just detachment rules that need tightening up.

AM has overpowered troops and not so much OP vehicles.

Their troop efficiency is what makes their vehicles so strong.

You can literally spam enough troops to screen your tanks all game so your big guns will shoot all game long.

It's literally possible to cover the entire 6x4 board with a TAC AM list.

 skchsan wrote:
AM has overpowered troops and not so much OP vehicles.

Their troop efficiency is what makes their vehicles so strong.

You can literally spam enough troops to screen your tanks all game so your big guns will shoot all game long.

It's literally possible to cover the entire 6x4 board with a TAC AM list.

Agreed. I'm one of the rare guard players that thinks that guardsmen should go to 5 points.

We would need to have our underperforming units buffed to compensate though, because right now spamming cost effective troops and LOS ignoring artillery is all pure guard is really good at.

 Fafnir wrote:
But Imperial Guard is the problem army. Imperial lists can't be competitive without them, they themselves encourage boring and one-sided styles of play, and are frontloaded with so much firepower that designing factions to deal with them only causes problems with the game's core to escalate.

Do you seriously think Guard are not an overly powerful army?

Sisters would beg to differ.

And the reason people struggle with these armies is peoples idea of "meta" in the tourney scene. (I play in tournies, put away the pitch forks.)

Different weapons and units work different ways. If you only take plasma, and then complain you can't kill vehicles that's your problem not the army.

ITT:
"Guard are OP!"
"Name one thing they've won since chapter approved."
"<Inane screeching>"

w1zard wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
AM has overpowered troops and not so much OP vehicles.

Their troop efficiency is what makes their vehicles so strong.

You can literally spam enough troops to screen your tanks all game so your big guns will shoot all game long.

It's literally possible to cover the entire 6x4 board with a TAC AM list.

Agreed. I'm one of the rare guard players that thinks that guardsmen should go to 5 points.

We would need to have our underperforming units buffed to compensate though, because right now spamming cost effective troops and LOS ignoring artillery is all pure guard is really good at.

I don't think 5 points generally is the way to go. I'd make it "A Guardsmen is 4 points if every model in the army has the Astra Militarum keyword, and 6 points if not."

It addresses the issues about Slamguinus and Custodes Bikers while not making infantry companies unviable.

 Asmodai wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
AM has overpowered troops and not so much OP vehicles.

Their troop efficiency is what makes their vehicles so strong.

You can literally spam enough troops to screen your tanks all game so your big guns will shoot all game long.

It's literally possible to cover the entire 6x4 board with a TAC AM list.

Agreed. I'm one of the rare guard players that thinks that guardsmen should go to 5 points.

We would need to have our underperforming units buffed to compensate though, because right now spamming cost effective troops and LOS ignoring artillery is all pure guard is really good at.

I don't think 5 points generally is the way to go. I'd make it "A Guardsmen is 4 points if every model in the army has the Astra Militarum keyword, and 6 points if not."

It addresses the issues about Slamguinus and Custodes Bikers while not making infantry companies unviable.

That's a good solution.
The problem with IG now is soup, not unsouped IG.

 Asmodai wrote:


I don't think 5 points generally is the way to go. I'd make it "A Guardsmen is 4 points if every model in the army has the Astra Militarum keyword, and 6 points if not."

It addresses the issues about Slamguinus and Custodes Bikers while not making infantry companies unviable.

No, it really doesn't. Because this idea is not very good.

Simplest solution is the easiest:
Allied Detachments need to be exactly that: Allied Detachments. You shouldn't be able to cram a whole Guard army in as "allies" for your Custodes or Blood Angels. We need an actual "Allies" Detachment or some kind of requirement as to what specific Detachments can be used for Allies. You shouldn't be able to field Brigades as "Allied Detachments", you should be capped out at the variants like the Spearhead/Outrider/Vanguard or the Patrol Detachments.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:


I don't think 5 points generally is the way to go. I'd make it "A Guardsmen is 4 points if every model in the army has the Astra Militarum keyword, and 6 points if not."

It addresses the issues about Slamguinus and Custodes Bikers while not making infantry companies unviable.

No, it really doesn't. Because this idea is not very good.

Simplest solution is the easiest:
Allied Detachments need to be exactly that: Allied Detachments. You shouldn't be able to cram a whole Guard army in as "allies" for your Custodes or Blood Angels. We need an actual "Allies" Detachment or some kind of requirement as to what specific Detachments can be used for Allies. You shouldn't be able to field Brigades as "Allied Detachments", you should be capped out at the variants like the Spearhead/Outrider/Vanguard or the Patrol Detachments.

Why shouldn't you be able to bring a Brigade of Guard, a battalion of Space Marines, and a Vanguard of Inquisition?

Don't you then just end up with an AM army with Custodes allies though?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Why shouldn't you be able to bring a Brigade of Guard, a battalion of Space Marines, and a Vanguard of Inquisition?

Why should you be able to? If you're playing a Guard or Space Marine army, you shouldn't be having more units on the board from a different army entirely.

Certainly not because it is not fluffy but rather because they cover each others weakness when built in a specific way.
I wouldn't add a tax of 50% more points per IG dude, but rather see again the older allies chart which was more restrictive in the number of slots avilable for allied detachments.
Another option would be that for each allied detachment you loose an ammount of cp because of the difficulty combining different command structures. ( basically if you take a Brigade IG instead of gaining cheap cp you lose half the cp the Detachment would give)
Maybee harsh, i do not know.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Certainly not because it is not fluffy but rather because they cover each others weakness when built in a specific way.
I wouldn't add a tax of 50% more points per IG dude, but rather see again the older allies chart which was more restrictive in the number of slots avilable for allied detachments.
Another option would be that for each allied detachment you loose an ammount of cp because of the difficulty combining different command structures. ( basically if you take a Brigade IG instead of gaining cheap cp you lose half the cp the Detachment would give)
Maybee harsh, i do not know.

There's literally a method for Allies in the form of the "Auxiliary Support Detachment" which has a Command Benefit of -1 Command Point for each one(aside from the Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment).

The problem is that you are never forced to use it for Allies. Why would you take an ASD of Guard when you can just take a Brigade instead?

One of the solutions I've proposed elsewhere is that you only be able to take Patrol, Vanguard, Outrider, or Spearhead Detachments as "Allies" [b]and only after you've filled out your primary faction's Detachment(whatever it might have been) minus the 0-2 Flyers(not every army has Flyers).

Taking a Deathwatch Vanguard Detachment? Cool! Fill it up and then you can take a Patrol, Vanguard, Outrider, or Spearhead of Guard.
Don't fill it up? NO ALLIES FOR YOU!

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Why shouldn't you be able to bring a Brigade of Guard, a battalion of Space Marines, and a Vanguard of Inquisition?

Why should you be able to? If you're playing a Guard or Space Marine army, you shouldn't be having more units on the board from a different army entirely.

Because that's how armies work?

A tank company (~17 tanks) supported by an infantry platoon (~50 dudes) isn't suddenly an infantry company just because it has more of a different thing.

Similarly, a Custodes Supreme Command (3-6 units) supported by a Guard brigade (18 units) isn't suddenly an Imperial Guard army just because it has more of a different thing.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Why shouldn't you be able to bring a Brigade of Guard, a battalion of Space Marines, and a Vanguard of Inquisition?

Why should you be able to? If you're playing a Guard or Space Marine army, you shouldn't be having more units on the board from a different army entirely.

Because that's how armies work?

A tank company (~17 tanks) supported by an infantry platoon (~50 dudes) isn't suddenly an infantry company just because it has more of a different thing.

Similarly, a Custodes Supreme Command (3-6 units) supported by a Guard brigade (18 units) isn't suddenly an Imperial Guard army just because it has more of a different thing.

You're trying to conflate two wildly separate things. Talking about things like tank companies with infantry platoons is completely unrelated to 40k itself.

If someone says "I'm playing a Custodes army!" and has an Outrider Detachment consisting of 7 Jetbikes while they have a Guard Brigade chock full of artillery and infantry...I'm calling bullgak. You're running a Guard army at that point by numbers alone.

Now, you might say "but that's how armies work!". Sure, it's how they work--but it's also why we have nonstop whining about the Guard and the Imperium in general.