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They need to just put a hard cap on CP you can never get more than x

IG + big boys is the coolest/most fluffy ally in the game. It's the last one we should be trying to fully erradicate.

Based on the number of issues that have nothing to do with allies, I don’t think you can make any statement about design. Was it intended to have small CP farms probably not. Was it designed for allies to share CP, probably so based on them not denying it. I mean the sharing thing is basically only an issue in this instance almost specifically because of the double CP regen. So fix the regen interaction and not the whole system.

Breng77 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Making Infantry Squads 5ppm isnt going to do much about soup, especially the CP battery issues, most of these armies arent running hundreds of guardsmen, for the CP battery lists, theyll be able to squeeze 30-60pts elsewhere without much issue in an 1850/2k game.

Likewise, banning one faction from being allies but not others doesnt hold any water either.

Simple fix...CP's only get to be used on the detachments or factions that generate them. Suddenly, the allied CP shennanigans ceases to be an issue, factions deal with the CP they were designed to have, and we dont need to get into manipulating points or bans.

Joan do you know how many CP an army was designed to have?

We dont specifically, but more broadly speaking, most factions (barring stuff like Harlequins) are designed as self contained forces fully playable without allies, their Stratagems are specific to their units and costed to such units, and when built as self contained forces usually operate within a range of CP availability that differs from other armies built as self contained forces as well, and access to allied CP's and CP batteries is wildly inconsistent.

Allies are part of the game

a very poorly implemented part of it.

and in theory the CP stuff is as designed.

Looking at the actual execution in codex books, it does not appear CP sharing was ever considered much.

but I think restricting CP to generating faction is cumbersome and basically kills allies

Just because you cant use 10CP generated by a Guard army on your Space Marines or Sisters?

Most armies arent reliant on stratagems, especially not on spamming them, except those that go out of their way to abuse certain mechanics and are built in a specific manner to do just that. Having a CP battery from another faction shouldnt be taken as a given, especially when so many lack such access.

with minimal exception especially if you also take away the 3 you get for battleforged. Sorry but a lot in this thread reads as I hate allies.

To some degree thats not unfair, but thats also because GWs implementation of "allies" is atrocious, even in matched play it is little more than "take whatever you want from wherever you want in whatever quantity you want if they share a fluff keyword then they get to share a bunch of game mechanics to boot". Between the allies rules and detachment allowances, you really can make almost any combination and mishmash of units perfectly legal to field, which leads to lots of problems.


Aside from armies built specifically to abuse CP generation, i dont see what great harm restricting CP's to at least just the factions that generate them does.

Bharring wrote:
IG + big boys is the coolest/most fluffy ally in the game. It's the last one we should be trying to fully erradicate.

Exactly. Imperial armies having small contingencies of guard absolutely makes sense, because in almost every fluff piece ever they're always actually together in some way or another.

All we're missing is War Servitors or small detachments of tech priests in every army and we'd be playing the game as it's ACTUALLY written.

Bharring wrote:
IG + big boys is the coolest/most fluffy ally in the game. It's the last one we should be trying to fully erradicate.

You have got to be kidding me. Multiple shield captains is somehow fluffy?

No need to ban specific lists. Simply make it so CP have to be spent on the detachment type that generated it. That way your not using AM CP on BA strategies and rerolls. This nukes soup builds while not penalizing people actually playing it for fluff

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
IG + big boys is the coolest/most fluffy ally in the game. It's the last one we should be trying to fully erradicate.

You have got to be kidding me. Multiple shield captains is somehow fluffy?

You're aware they fight together, no?

Custodes don't have factions. They exist as a singular entity. Members of groups have individual "ranks". Those "ranks" can form other groups.

In "The Master of Mankind" some of the eldest custodes, ranging from a tribune to other captains are referred to as the "High Lords of Terra".

They're not marines. Stop thinking about them like them.

No. That's just fixing a symptom not the problem. GW need to start making balanced rules and maintain these rules. But I expect flying pigs first.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
No need to ban it. Just make IS 5 points (yes, I realize this will generate controversy - let's not debate it here though). Maybe tweak a few other small items and it becomes less attractive and harder to fit things in.

As a long time guard player I agree with this 100%. Infantry Squads are too cheap. It makes mainstay units like Conscripts irrelevant. and the price difference between the IS and Veteran squads means you might as well just run more IS to make up for their crummy BS. I want to be a clear tier of 4 for constripts, 5 for IS, then 6 for veterans. That way you pick the unit you need for the role and not because its cheap and taking another option would be silly. (and yes I know veterans are not troops)

Conscripts are not and never have been "mainstay units".

Infantry Squads are the mainstay unit. There's a reason why previous iterations of Platoons have required Infantry Squads to field Conscripts.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's an entirely valid and legal method of play.

Adapt or move on.

Golden boy sighted!

Yeah - I'm fine with it being legal too. IG should not be giving superior soldiers command bonuses - it is literally absurd. What are the command points supposed to represent in this case?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
No need to ban it. Just make IS 5 points (yes, I realize this will generate controversy - let's not debate it here though). Maybe tweak a few other small items and it becomes less attractive and harder to fit things in.

Or you do the smart thing and make it so that you cannot ally in anything larger than a Patrol or one of the <1 Hq + 3x Elite/HS/FA> things.

Make it so the "Auxiliary Support Detachments" actually become something people have to field and suddenly crap like the Battalions/Brigades are gone.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's an entirely valid and legal method of play.

Adapt or move on.

Golden boy sighted!

Yeah - I'm fine with it being legal too. IG should not be giving superior soldiers command bonuses - it is literally absurd. What are the command points supposed to represent in this case?

I play more armies than the average local event has present. It's not an army bias.

They're a resource. I was fine with warp charge for years, and some armies specifically building to create more, im fine with people shipping 200pts for more CP as well. Doesn't bother me at all.

Look it how much has changed. It’s important to voice problems with our hobby.

Bharring wrote:
IG + big boys is the coolest/most fluffy ally in the game. It's the last one we should be trying to fully erradicate.

Nobody's trying to "eradicate" it. They're trying to get it to an acceptable point.

You should not ever have been able to take Battalions or Brigades as allied choices. Ever.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
IG + big boys is the coolest/most fluffy ally in the game. It's the last one we should be trying to fully erradicate.

You have got to be kidding me. Multiple shield captains is somehow fluffy?

You're aware they fight together, no?

Custodes don't have factions. They exist as a singular entity. Members of groups have individual "ranks". Those "ranks" can form other groups.

In "The Master of Mankind" some of the eldest custodes, ranging from a tribune to other captains are referred to as the "High Lords of Terra".

They're not marines. Stop thinking about them like them.

They are a genetically modified super humans - grown to be a fighting machine - the also have big armor and should pads. They are friggen marines dude. The levels of "elite soliders" in this game are becoming excessively lame. I'm not even sure how anyone even cares for imperial factions at this point.

That is another discussion though. The discussion is about taking the most basic armies in the game to soup up the most elite ones. Do you really think a 10,000 year old super solider is at all enhanced by a brigade of pathetic humans behind him? No. They are irrelevant to him. They aren't going to give him tactical insight or anything or the kind. He is a master of war - they are the army reserves.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Bharring wrote:
IG + big boys is the coolest/most fluffy ally in the game. It's the last one we should be trying to fully erradicate.

Nobody's trying to "eradicate" it. They're trying to get it to an acceptable point.

You should not ever have been able to take Battalions or Brigades as allied choices. Ever.

Why?

Genuinely. Clearly GW wanted it, and has emphasized that by clarifying which detachments and ally matrix choices can be taken.

Why do you think, despite the intention of the game, we should not be able to do it?

Your perception of balance? Because, and no offense to any of us, but none of our opinions on that mean much. It's the game. It is what it is. We should be able or not be table to do anything, because we feel or think so.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's an entirely valid and legal method of play.

Adapt or move on.

Golden boy sighted!

Yeah - I'm fine with it being legal too. IG should not be giving superior soldiers command bonuses - it is literally absurd. What are the command points supposed to represent in this case?

I play more armies than the average local event has present. It's not an army bias.

They're a resource. I was fine with warp charge for years, and some armies specifically building to create more, im fine with people shipping 200pts for more CP as well. Doesn't bother me at all.

Well if you liked 7ths psychic system - which was essentially the same kind of thing. You will probably like this system. Most people didn't like it though. I know I didn't.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Bharring wrote:
IG + big boys is the coolest/most fluffy ally in the game. It's the last one we should be trying to fully erradicate.

Nobody's trying to "eradicate" it. They're trying to get it to an acceptable point.

You should not ever have been able to take Battalions or Brigades as allied choices. Ever.

Whats also not fluffy is somehow having more guard power up BA or Custodes or whatever. Thematically having more BA should power up BA allowing them to do more unique BA things. Just make it's so that CP has to be used bt the detachment that generated it and this not only fixes the problem but makes more sense thematically.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Bharring wrote:
IG + big boys is the coolest/most fluffy ally in the game. It's the last one we should be trying to fully erradicate.

Nobody's trying to "eradicate" it. They're trying to get it to an acceptable point.

You should not ever have been able to take Battalions or Brigades as allied choices. Ever.

Why?

Genuinely. Clearly GW wanted it, and has emphasized that by clarifying which detachments and ally matrix choices can be taken.

Why do you think, despite the intention of the game, we should not be able to do it?

Clearly GW didn't want it. There exists the whole thing of "Auxiliary Support Detachments", which likely is what they assumed people would use for Allies.

I mean you can claim what you want, but I can point to Codex: Drukhari and how they give bonuses to an army clearly intended to have multiple Detachments for their benefits being tied to Patrols.

Your perception of balance? Because, and no offense to any of us, but none of our opinions on that mean much. It's the game. It is what it is. We should be able or not be table to do anything, because we feel or think so.

Our opinions might not mean much, but quite frankly neither should any of the people like Reecius or the various playtesters. They clearly wanted these abuses to stand and yet they're the ones whining about the tournament scene suffering because of it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
IG + big boys is the coolest/most fluffy ally in the game. It's the last one we should be trying to fully erradicate.

You have got to be kidding me. Multiple shield captains is somehow fluffy?

You're aware they fight together, no?

Custodes don't have factions. They exist as a singular entity. Members of groups have individual "ranks". Those "ranks" can form other groups.

In "The Master of Mankind" some of the eldest custodes, ranging from a tribune to other captains are referred to as the "High Lords of Terra".

They're not marines. Stop thinking about them like them.

They are a genetically modified super humans - grown to be a fighting machine - the also have big armor and should pads. They are friggen marines dude. The levels of "elite soliders" in this game are becoming excessively lame. I'm not even sure how anyone even cares for imperial factions at this point.

That is another discussion though. The discussion is about taking the most basic armies in the game to soup up the most elite ones. Do you really think a 10,000 year old super solider is at all enhanced by a bridge of pathetic humans behind him? No. They are irrelevant to him. They aren't going to give him tactical insight or anything or the kind. He is a master of war - they are the army reserves.

I... don't think you're aware of Custodes lore, genuinely.

Diocletian, again, a Custodian in "Master of Mankind" deliberately describes being impressed by a Knight Scion who stood before him and chose to fight for the emperor, was impressed by her Zeal.

Multiple Custodians regard Arkhan Land, a human techno archaeologist who literally created the Land Raider, with respect.

Custodians work alongside inquisitiors, who are humans. They sit among the High Lords of Terra, who are humans.

The Imperium of Man is for man. Created by The Emperor, and all creations exist for the betterment of Mankind.

Custodians fight for them, because it is the emperors vision. A human among them who is able to gleam a tactical level of insight to assist them is not only fully valid by warhammer lore, it's literally expected to find a human who might be of that level of standard that is assigned to an area BESIEGED BY THE ENEMY in which Custodians, maybe even in the Sol System, are then set out to also protect.

You're going against fluff to make it invalid. It's wrong.

We saw how GW pulled in the reins on soup with the big faq obviously they are not totally cool with it and need to implement further restrictions.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Bharring wrote:
IG + big boys is the coolest/most fluffy ally in the game. It's the last one we should be trying to fully erradicate.

Nobody's trying to "eradicate" it. They're trying to get it to an acceptable point.

You should not ever have been able to take Battalions or Brigades as allied choices. Ever.

Why?

Genuinely. Clearly GW wanted it, and has emphasized that by clarifying which detachments and ally matrix choices can be taken.

Why do you think, despite the intention of the game, we should not be able to do it?

Clearly GW didn't want it. There exists the whole thing of "Auxiliary Support Detachments", which likely is what they assumed people would use for Allies.

I mean you can claim what you want, but I can point to Codex: Drukhari and how they give bonuses to an army clearly intended to have multiple Detachments for their benefits being tied to Patrols.

Your perception of balance? Because, and no offense to any of us, but none of our opinions on that mean much. It's the game. It is what it is. We should be able or not be table to do anything, because we feel or think so.

Our opinions might not mean much, but quite frankly neither should any of the people like Reecius or the various playtesters. They clearly wanted these abuses to stand and yet they're the ones whining about the tournament scene suffering because of it.

If it makes you feel any better, I am in complete agreement that the playtesters opinions should mean nothing. In practice, they tend to be gakkers.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
IG + big boys is the coolest/most fluffy ally in the game. It's the last one we should be trying to fully erradicate.

You have got to be kidding me. Multiple shield captains is somehow fluffy?

You're aware they fight together, no?

Custodes don't have factions. They exist as a singular entity. Members of groups have individual "ranks". Those "ranks" can form other groups.

In "The Master of Mankind" some of the eldest custodes, ranging from a tribune to other captains are referred to as the "High Lords of Terra".

They're not marines. Stop thinking about them like them.

They are a genetically modified super humans - grown to be a fighting machine - the also have big armor and should pads. They are friggen marines dude. The levels of "elite soliders" in this game are becoming excessively lame. I'm not even sure how anyone even cares for imperial factions at this point.

That is another discussion though. The discussion is about taking the most basic armies in the game to soup up the most elite ones. Do you really think a 10,000 year old super solider is at all enhanced by a bridge of pathetic humans behind him? No. They are irrelevant to him. They aren't going to give him tactical insight or anything or the kind. He is a master of war - they are the army reserves.

I... don't think you're aware of Custodes lore, genuinely.

Diocletian, again, a Custodian in "Master of Mankind" deliberately describes being impressed by a Knight Scion who stood before him and chose to fight for the emperor, was impressed by her Zeal.

Multiple Custodians regard Arkhan Land, a human techno archaeologist who literally created the Land Raider, with respect.

Custodians work alongside inquisitiors, who are humans. They sit among the High Lords of Terra, who are humans.

The Imperium of Man is for man. Created by The Emperor, and all creations exist for the betterment of Mankind.

Custodians fight for them, because it is the emperors vision. A human among them who is able to gleam a tactical level of insight to assist them is not only fully valid by warhammer lore, it's literally expected to find a human who might be of that level of standard that is assigned to an area BESIEGED BY THE ENEMY in which Custodians, maybe even in the Sol System, are then set out to also protect.

You're going against fluff to make it invalid. It's wrong.

They can respect normal humans all they like but it doesn't make them any less useless by comparison in actual fights. Respect doesn't stop bullets. Plus aren't Custodes meant to be super duper awesome elite of the elite of the elite of the elite soldiers who are all tactical genius's? So they don't really need some Guard general with essentially no experience by comparison to give tactical insight. But hey, my whole group gave up in Gathering Storm so I might be absolutely behind the latest retcons.

Even if you didn't get CP people would still bring the guard battalion. The utility offered here with 30 screening bodies for 120 points is incredibly difficult to pass up.

pm713 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
IG + big boys is the coolest/most fluffy ally in the game. It's the last one we should be trying to fully erradicate.

You have got to be kidding me. Multiple shield captains is somehow fluffy?

You're aware they fight together, no?

Custodes don't have factions. They exist as a singular entity. Members of groups have individual "ranks". Those "ranks" can form other groups.

In "The Master of Mankind" some of the eldest custodes, ranging from a tribune to other captains are referred to as the "High Lords of Terra".

They're not marines. Stop thinking about them like them.

They are a genetically modified super humans - grown to be a fighting machine - the also have big armor and should pads. They are friggen marines dude. The levels of "elite soliders" in this game are becoming excessively lame. I'm not even sure how anyone even cares for imperial factions at this point.

That is another discussion though. The discussion is about taking the most basic armies in the game to soup up the most elite ones. Do you really think a 10,000 year old super solider is at all enhanced by a bridge of pathetic humans behind him? No. They are irrelevant to him. They aren't going to give him tactical insight or anything or the kind. He is a master of war - they are the army reserves.

I... don't think you're aware of Custodes lore, genuinely.

Diocletian, again, a Custodian in "Master of Mankind" deliberately describes being impressed by a Knight Scion who stood before him and chose to fight for the emperor, was impressed by her Zeal.

Multiple Custodians regard Arkhan Land, a human techno archaeologist who literally created the Land Raider, with respect.

Custodians work alongside inquisitiors, who are humans. They sit among the High Lords of Terra, who are humans.

The Imperium of Man is for man. Created by The Emperor, and all creations exist for the betterment of Mankind.

Custodians fight for them, because it is the emperors vision. A human among them who is able to gleam a tactical level of insight to assist them is not only fully valid by warhammer lore, it's literally expected to find a human who might be of that level of standard that is assigned to an area BESIEGED BY THE ENEMY in which Custodians, maybe even in the Sol System, are then set out to also protect.

You're going against fluff to make it invalid. It's wrong.

They can respect normal humans all they like but it doesn't make them any less useless by comparison in actual fights. Respect doesn't stop bullets. Plus aren't Custodes meant to be super duper awesome elite of the elite of the elite of the elite soldiers who are all tactical genius's? So they don't really need some Guard general with essentially no experience by comparison to give tactical insight. But hey, my whole group gave up in Gathering Storm so I might be absolutely behind the latest retcons.

Respect doesn't, no. I'm simply indicating they fight together; as they do.

Because they do.

They are useless, so are 32 Models in the AM Battalion you're using to ally.

Just one of them is providing you with a benefit, and perhaps that guy is seeing something no one else did.

We're taking "Warlord" too literally. It's just a model. Forge your own narrative if you're worried about it.

What is a Black Library novel or story that has them fighting together?

Quite literally any novel with Custodes has them fighting alongside some level of imperial chaff in one capacity or another.

They're almost always described as, at least, having serfs and servitors following them through battle reloading their weapons, let alone also defending guardsmen, admech contingencies, etc for the emperors works.

I welcome you to read them, they're quite fun.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Making Infantry Squads 5ppm isnt going to do much about soup, especially the CP battery issues, most of these armies arent running hundreds of guardsmen, for the CP battery lists, theyll be able to squeeze 30-60pts elsewhere without much issue in an 1850/2k game.

Likewise, banning one faction from being allies but not others doesnt hold any water either.

Simple fix...CP's only get to be used on the detachments or factions that generate them. Suddenly, the allied CP shennanigans ceases to be an issue, factions deal with the CP they were designed to have, and we dont need to get into manipulating points or bans.

Joan do you know how many CP an army was designed to have?

We dont specifically, but more broadly speaking, most factions (barring stuff like Harlequins) are designed as self contained forces fully playable without allies, their Stratagems are specific to their units and costed to such units, and when built as self contained forces usually operate within a range of CP availability that differs from other armies built as self contained forces as well, and access to allied CP's and CP batteries is wildly inconsistent.

Allies are part of the game

a very poorly implemented part of it.

and in theory the CP stuff is as designed.

Looking at the actual execution in codex books, it does not appear CP sharing was ever considered much.

but I think restricting CP to generating faction is cumbersome and basically kills allies

Just because you cant use 10CP generated by a Guard army on your Space Marines or Sisters?

Most armies arent reliant on stratagems, especially not on spamming them, except those that go out of their way to abuse certain mechanics and are built in a specific manner to do just that. Having a CP battery from another faction shouldnt be taken as a given, especially when so many lack such access.

with minimal exception especially if you also take away the 3 you get for battleforged. Sorry but a lot in this thread reads as I hate allies.

To some degree thats not unfair, but thats also because GWs implementation of "allies" is atrocious, even in matched play it is little more than "take whatever you want from wherever you want in whatever quantity you want if they share a fluff keyword then they get to share a bunch of game mechanics to boot". Between the allies rules and detachment allowances, you really can make almost any combination and mishmash of units perfectly legal to field, which leads to lots of problems.


Aside from armies built specifically to abuse CP generation, i dont see what great harm restricting CP's to at least just the factions that generate them does.

The damage it does is to armies not designed to abuse those rules. I play Ravenguard allied with sisters, and have 9 CP total in most games. With your change I would have 6 one of which could be spent on sisters... so there is my one re-roll yay....Then my Ravenguard have 5, 3 of which probably get used pregame. So I have 1-3 strats to use during the game yay...sounds fun to me. Further I now need to track 2 separate CP pools, 3 if I went to other detachments. What this rule says to me is, no reason to ally now because it is overly punishing, I’m better off playing pure Ravenguard, and having probably 13 CP I can use on anything in my army.

You don't think the most elite should ever get a strategery bonus (spelling intended) by hanigng out with some flunkies?

So Alexander never needed his phalanx, and should have just fielded more Companions?

Tanks should fight tank battles, Infantry should fight infantry battles? Close Air Support is worthless?

What an elite unit needs most are more warm bodies. What warm bodies need most are elites.

Besides, there are only so many 10k-year-old super-soldiers. In any standard engagement, they likely need Guardsmen/PDF/whatever to actually get things done.