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With PL you have to build the army for it.
Things like 11 demons cost twice the PL as 10 demons. You need to get the max use of all the PL you spend.

So it forces a certain structure on your army, where points alsways measure down to the single model.

If you fail to take good advantage of PL in list building, you may end up with a seriously underpowered army. So, while PL may (kinda) work if both players know how to use them, they seem to be a noob trap.

 SHUPPET wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
tyranids should never be able to ally with anyone. And I say that as a Tyranids player.

GSC at the maximum. I don't even think AM + GSC + Tyranids makes sense personally.

It does since the AM regiment is Brood Brothers

Yeah so a bunch of battle hardened ultra disciplined soldiers pledged to the service of a Xenos hating emporer, wouldn't question a thing when some other am guys said "hey uhh let's be friends with the Tyranid"? That'd be like the number one way to tip your hand about a Genestealers cult lol

Midnightmullen wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
tyranids should never be able to ally with anyone. And I say that as a Tyranids player.

I started 40k right at the very end of 7th. I was having a tough time choosing between nids and guard. I decided nids because they looked awesome and are more aggressive. I already have 3k points of nids. My genestealers and broodlord make for an easy detachment link. Now it's just a matter of when I want to flush out more of nids/gsc or buy some guard. I love it. I also dream about getting some deathwatch to Ally with the future guard that I will inevitably buy. So as a new tyranids player I beg to differ.

Cool so you like both the models, but that's an incredibly bad reason to argue that they fit together thematically as allies, which is what this thread, and my post, are both unmistakably about. Your post doesn't mean anything.





AM working with Nids doesn't make sense, it just feels like transitional rules causing a loophole.

Brood Brothers is just giving Genestealer Cult access to the full guard arsenal without having to re-print it in the book. All the Astra Militarum fielded with GSC are cultists themselves - if the GSC units are fanatical enough to serve with the tyranids, the brood brothers are as well.

Dandelion wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I always assumed the brood brothers rules just represent that basically everything from the Imperial Guard is a genestealer cultist. Thats why they are called... brood brothers... and not something else. And thats why you can't take special Characters, and they lose regiment rules.

That baneblade crew? Oh they where replaced by Genestealer cultists pilots 15 years ago. Those Ogryns and that Commisar? Yeah, his mother has 4 arms and the Ogryns are mind controlled/infected by the Patriarch. Etc, etc...

You don't need to assume it, that's literally what they are. The brood brothers guard regiment is compromised by the cult and all those guardsman are cultists with stolen military gear.

Spoiler:

So then AM should be raw blood brothers with tyranids to reflect this. There is no consistency here.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Where are all of these local wargaming groups that allow people to ignore the rules of 40k?

I recommend you read your rulebook. Matched Play requires your army to have a common keyword so that your army is Battle-Forged. However, the rules for Narrative Play makes Battle-Forged an optional thing, as does Open Play.

So as long as you and your opponent agree to be bound by Open Play or Narrative Play rules, rather htan Matched Play rules, you are NOT ignoring the rules of 40k by having a non-Battle-Forged army.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I always assumed the brood brothers rules just represent that basically everything from the Imperial Guard is a genestealer cultist. Thats why they are called... brood brothers... and not something else. And thats why you can't take special Characters, and they lose regiment rules.

That baneblade crew? Oh they where replaced by Genestealer cultists pilots 15 years ago. Those Ogryns and that Commisar? Yeah, his mother has 4 arms and the Ogryns are mind controlled/infected by the Patriarch. Etc, etc...

You don't need to assume it, that's literally what they are. The brood brothers guard regiment is compromised by the cult and all those guardsman are cultists with stolen military gear.

Spoiler:

So then AM should be raw blood brothers with tyranids to reflect this. There is no consistency here.

but the traitor guard are genestealer cults themselves. They aren't nids. They're just the branch of cultists that infiltrated the army. They still only follow the patriarch, not the nids. They don't even know what exactly the nids are until they show up. So the set up is that nids can ally with the cults, and the cults can bring guard stuff. Makes sense to me.

Dandelion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I always assumed the brood brothers rules just represent that basically everything from the Imperial Guard is a genestealer cultist. Thats why they are called... brood brothers... and not something else. And thats why you can't take special Characters, and they lose regiment rules.

That baneblade crew? Oh they where replaced by Genestealer cultists pilots 15 years ago. Those Ogryns and that Commisar? Yeah, his mother has 4 arms and the Ogryns are mind controlled/infected by the Patriarch. Etc, etc...

You don't need to assume it, that's literally what they are. The brood brothers guard regiment is compromised by the cult and all those guardsman are cultists with stolen military gear.

Spoiler:

So then AM should be raw blood brothers with tyranids to reflect this. There is no consistency here.

but the traitor guard are genestealer cults themselves. They aren't nids. They're just the branch of cultists that infiltrated the army. They still only follow the patriarch, not the nids. They don't even know what exactly the nids are until they show up. So the set up is that nids can ally with the cults, and the cults can bring guard stuff. Makes sense to me.

Yes but the idea is that AM is part of the cult in waiting right?. Whether or not the patriarch entered that particular battle or not wouldn't change the fact that they'd be fighting on Nids side, hence why this isn't consistent. AM models representing a genestealer cult should either be able to ally with Nids at all times or never, the fact that you can only do it through the rules of intermediary is where my problem lies, not with the fact that its possible at all.

 Melissia wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Where are all of these local wargaming groups that allow people to ignore the rules of 40k?

I recommend you read your rulebook. Matched Play requires your army to have a common keyword so that your army is Battle-Forged. However, the rules for Narrative Play makes Battle-Forged an optional thing, as does Open Play.

So as long as you and your opponent agree to be bound by Open Play or Narrative Play rules, rather htan Matched Play rules, you are NOT ignoring the rules of 40k by having a non-Battle-Forged army.

And I think you should read the last page of this thread where we discuss that no one plays open or narrative play.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I always assumed the brood brothers rules just represent that basically everything from the Imperial Guard is a genestealer cultist. Thats why they are called... brood brothers... and not something else. And thats why you can't take special Characters, and they lose regiment rules.

That baneblade crew? Oh they where replaced by Genestealer cultists pilots 15 years ago. Those Ogryns and that Commisar? Yeah, his mother has 4 arms and the Ogryns are mind controlled/infected by the Patriarch. Etc, etc...

You don't need to assume it, that's literally what they are. The brood brothers guard regiment is compromised by the cult and all those guardsman are cultists with stolen military gear.

Spoiler:

So then AM should be raw blood brothers with tyranids to reflect this. There is no consistency here.

They represent it by making you take at least some Genestealer cultists along with the guard to show a mixed force. It's one of the most fluffy Ally rules currently in the game, it's a strange one to knock. Ynnari being able to field coven allies, some of the imperisl factions that despise each other being buddy buddy, etc are far weirder

Dandelion wrote:

You don't need to assume it, that's literally what they are. The brood brothers guard regiment is compromised by the cult and all those guardsman are cultists with stolen military gear.

They may not even be stolen. If the infection is sufficiently well established then we may be talking about a PDF regiment containing only hybrids issued with equipment by planetary officials that are also hybrids.

You aren't a hybrid? I'm afraid that you didn't pass the selection process.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Where are all of these local wargaming groups that allow people to ignore the rules of 40k?

I recommend you read your rulebook. Matched Play requires your army to have a common keyword so that your army is Battle-Forged. However, the rules for Narrative Play makes Battle-Forged an optional thing, as does Open Play.

So as long as you and your opponent agree to be bound by Open Play or Narrative Play rules, rather htan Matched Play rules, you are NOT ignoring the rules of 40k by having a non-Battle-Forged army.

And I think you should read the last page of this thread where we discuss that no one plays open or narrative play.

Actually, don't bother. He just keeps claiming that and ignores any evidence suggesting otherwise.

 mrhappyface wrote:
And I think you should read the last page of this thread where we discuss that no one plays open or narrative play.

I'm not interested in your lazy moving-the-goalposts attempt to get away from admitting you don't know the rules.

 Jidmah wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Where are all of these local wargaming groups that allow people to ignore the rules of 40k?

I recommend you read your rulebook. Matched Play requires your army to have a common keyword so that your army is Battle-Forged. However, the rules for Narrative Play makes Battle-Forged an optional thing, as does Open Play.

So as long as you and your opponent agree to be bound by Open Play or Narrative Play rules, rather htan Matched Play rules, you are NOT ignoring the rules of 40k by having a non-Battle-Forged army.

And I think you should read the last page of this thread where we discuss that no one plays open or narrative play.

Actually, don't bother. He just keeps claiming that and ignores any evidence suggesting otherwise.

You gave one example of FLGS in your area using PL, it is you who is ignoring the fact that no one, except for people payed to push the system, uses PL.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
And I think you should read the last page of this thread where we discuss that no one plays open or narrative play.

I'm not interested in your lazy moving-the-goalposts attempt to get away from admitting you don't know the rules.

What have I said that suggests in anyway I don't know the rules? You say goalpost moving, I say strawman.

 Melissia wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Where are all of these local wargaming groups that allow people to ignore the rules of 40k?

I recommend you read your rulebook. Matched Play requires your army to have a common keyword so that your army is Battle-Forged. However, the rules for Narrative Play makes Battle-Forged an optional thing, as does Open Play.

So as long as you and your opponent agree to be bound by Open Play or Narrative Play rules, rather htan Matched Play rules, you are NOT ignoring the rules of 40k by having a non-Battle-Forged army.

Battle-forged (pg. 240) and Army Faction (pg. 214) are separate rules. Battle-forged requires all units be in a detachment, while Army Faction requires all units (with the exception of those that are UNALIGNED) must have at least one Faction keyword in common (e.g. IMPERIUM or CHAOS), even though they may be in different Detachments.

I'm really fond of the Allies that currently exist, but mostly because they're closer to what I view as factions in the fluff at the scale the game is played. The Codex lines make sense at a Combat Patrol/Kill Team sort of level, but at 2000 points I expect the Marines coming into save lowly Guardsmen, Heretics summoning Demons to their aid and the like. I actually find the cross Codex allies more thematic than the single codex allies. The cult on the ground heralding the arrival of the Tyranids works for me a lot better than multiple Hive Fleet detachments. Guard + Marines makes a lot more sense than different marine chapters similarly.

Overall, one of my big issues with 40k has always been that it just feels like there's too many factions. Drawn along the Ally lines, I feel like its broken up better into more meaningful divisions. The primary issue is that the new lines leave a few factions a little under supported. Necrons and Tau probably being the two most notable exceptions.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Where are all of these local wargaming groups that allow people to ignore the rules of 40k?

I recommend you read your rulebook. Matched Play requires your army to have a common keyword so that your army is Battle-Forged. However, the rules for Narrative Play makes Battle-Forged an optional thing, as does Open Play.

So as long as you and your opponent agree to be bound by Open Play or Narrative Play rules, rather htan Matched Play rules, you are NOT ignoring the rules of 40k by having a non-Battle-Forged army.

And I think you should read the last page of this thread where we discuss that no one plays open or narrative play.

Actually, don't bother. He just keeps claiming that and ignores any evidence suggesting otherwise.

You gave one example of FLGS in your area using PL, it is you who is ignoring the fact that no one, except for people payed to push the system, uses PL.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
And I think you should read the last page of this thread where we discuss that no one plays open or narrative play.

I'm not interested in your lazy moving-the-goalposts attempt to get away from admitting you don't know the rules.

What have I said that suggests in anyway I don't know the rules? You say goalpost moving, I say strawman.

Actually you only need one positive example to disprove a hyperbolic statement. It's why you should avoid those probably. For example: I am neither paid to push the system nor doing it specifically as a "gotcha" to some stranger on the internet but I am in fact setting up for a 300pl game right now. It's just easier to run things as what they're holding than to add up 6000 points of wargear.

We're even ignoring the three detachment limit and my opponent is bringing an impeeium keyword detachment for inquisitors Assassin's and SoS. WiLd AnD cRaZy!!!

But we're assured that no one plays like that!

Just because there are one or two groups of friends that play PL doesn't mean that the problem suddenly disappears for every other gaming group.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Yes but the idea is that AM is part of the cult in waiting right?. Whether or not the patriarch entered that particular battle or not wouldn't change the fact that they'd be fighting on Nids side, hence why this isn't consistent. AM models representing a genestealer cult should either be able to ally with Nids at all times or never, the fact that you can only do it through the rules of intermediary is where my problem lies, not with the fact that its possible at all.

I believe the idea is to force players to have at least one cult leader on the board as opposed to a company commander, other wise it's just guard and not the cults. The way I see it, the guard stuff is basically extra datasheets that would/should exist within the cult index without needing to reprint the guard stuff in the index. For all we know, they might make the genestealer codex simply have those guard datasheets in it.

Edit: got rid of quote pyramid


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Just because there are one or two groups of friends that play PL doesn't mean that the problem suddenly disappears for every other gaming group.

Weren't you saying "no one plays narrative/open"? Which is what they refuted. What "problem" are you referring to?

He's probably one of those guys who believe using power levels leads to lower testosterone, erectile dysfunction, and anal leakage. Real men use points.

And oil.

Lots of oil.

There's no point discussing the point if I have to repeat myself every three posts.

I thought the Tyranids didn’t ally with the Genestealer Cult, but just arrived at their summons and gobbled them up along with everybody else? That the whole ‘four-armed Emperor saviour’ was the cruel joke of the whole thing? Wasn’t that the whole thing with the Ymgarl Genestealers - those that didn’t want to get eaten so they rebelled and escaped?

Or is my lore out of date/confused? I’m not a Nid player, but if I’m right then GSC allying with Nids makes zero sense.

I think that's still what the lore in the current codex says.

IMO the GSC/Tyranid thing is a temporary alliance as cultists are not a threat to them, while they help breaking the enemies resistance. There really isn't a reason for the hive mind to eat them before most of the non-cult population is devoured.

HMint wrote:
With PL you have to build the army for it.
Things like 11 demons cost twice the PL as 10 demons. You need to get the max use of all the PL you spend.

So it forces a certain structure on your army, where points alsways measure down to the single model.

If you fail to take good advantage of PL in list building, you may end up with a seriously underpowered army. So, while PL may (kinda) work if both players know how to use them, they seem to be a noob trap.

Well gee. If you fail to take good advantage of points you will end up with seriously underpowered army. Gee. What a surprise.

Cultists should indeed fight alongside Tyranids during an invasion because the Cult at that point is totally overwhelmed by their Gods appearing from Space. Whilst some will go nuts and flee, many will follow orders and fight. Sure the Tyranids will eventually break them down for biomass; but they do the same to their own troops. Whilst he world is under invasion the Cult will serve the interests of the Hive and fight against the worlds defenders.
There might come a point where some members of the cult rebels as those not totally enthralled fight back, but by that point the cult will have served its purpose of weakening the world and aiding the invasion.

 mrhappyface wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm sorry but have you slept through all the "X is wrongly costed" etc debates? PL Points, both are GW pulling numbers out of their asses and saying "yeah I think it's this good" points are more granular and SHOULD be better, but GW's shown to be so aweful at points pricing of some things sometimes I wonder "could PLs be any worse?"

At least points make an attempt to internally balance units so that you have to make a decision between the cheaper, weaker option or the stronger, more expensive option (even if some of the options are not as cheap or expensive as they should be). With PL, a bare-bones unit of Havocs with bolters cost exactly the same as a fully kitted out Lascannon team.

Points aren't always perfect but Power Levels are completely pointless when having a balanced game.

For balance both points and PL are useless. If you want balanced game you use neither. PL and points both have their uses but what is NOT one of them is even semblance of balance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kombatwombat wrote:
I thought the Tyranids didn’t ally with the Genestealer Cult, but just arrived at their summons and gobbled them up along with everybody else? That the whole ‘four-armed Emperor saviour’ was the cruel joke of the whole thing? Wasn’t that the whole thing with the Ymgarl Genestealers - those that didn’t want to get eaten so they rebelled and escaped?

Or is my lore out of date/confused? I’m not a Nid player, but if I’m right then GSC allying with Nids makes zero sense.

Once tyranids have conquered planet they eat everything including the tyranids on the planet. Cult doesn't differ there.

"Ally" is bit weird word when you are looking at bunch of essentially brainwashed things without free will.

 Overread wrote:
Cultists should indeed fight alongside Tyranids during an invasion because the Cult at that point is totally overwhelmed by their Gods appearing from Space. Whilst some will go nuts and flee, many will follow orders and fight. Sure the Tyranids will eventually break them down for biomass; but they do the same to their own troops. Whilst he world is under invasion the Cult will serve the interests of the Hive and fight against the worlds defenders.
There might come a point where some members of the cult rebels as those not totally enthralled fight back, but by that point the cult will have served its purpose of weakening the world and aiding the invasion.

If you read the 7th ed codex is basically this. They fight with the Tyranids and the Tyranids ignore them. After the non cultist foraces have been killed, the Tyranids start devouring the cultists. Some accept that, but many othes, normally the more human generations, try to flee and survive after the cruel realisation.

I'd imagine that most GSC players see their army as the parts that get to move off to infect another world before the Nids eat them. Since a lot of players like. Coming up with their own HQ backgrounds I'm sure they don't see them as getting eaten when the big bugs show, with no real hope the Nids will recycle them. So why not say that their heroes are sent out ranging again with some useful troops on a captured ship to infect other worlds further down the path. It's more fitting with the general 40k narrative.

Let's be honest though, allies exist to encourage people to Branch out into other armies and buy more. When Daemonhunters was released and brought the GK, it seemed like every imperial player bought them to add to their army. I'm not surprised to see that push to branch out continue, even if it is limited in other factions. Of course I'm still waiting for the potential wtf match up with GK, DW, & SoB on one side and Bobby G, Custards, and Assassins on the other. Go allies!

The point is - that whether or not the Patriarch was still there or had been killed, or whether it wasn't even present in that battle or whatever, the human generations would still behave the exact same way when Nids arrive, so there shouldn't need to be an entire race middleman to that if the AM part of GSC is just meant to be a representation of human generations or humans under orders of the Cult.

Skaorn wrote:

Let's be honest though, allies exist to encourage people to Branch out into other armies and buy more.

Which I think is a way more interesting way to get to 2000 points then "find that one broken thing in your codex and buy 2000 points of it"

 LunarSol wrote:

Skaorn wrote:

Let's be honest though, allies exist to encourage people to Branch out into other armies and buy more.

Which I think is a way more interesting way to get to 2000 points then "find that one broken thing in your codex and buy 2000 points of it"

Yeah, now it's "take your pick of broken things between three different dexes at once"