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First, I do not own Imperial Armour: AM yet as its out of stock and Im still not sure about buying it digital. So Im not sure exactly what is in that index.

So ive made the switch from Cadians to DKOK and as im going through assembly-hell, ive started thinking about how things work with doctrines and such now. The AM codex doesnt contain a doctrine for DKOK, and far as I know neither does the IA index.
Does this make them eligable for the "without a doctrine you can choose one" rule from the Codex?
And what about relics and warlord traits, the same apply there?


Also, moving to DKOK may have been my choice based on their amazing modelline and badassery, but I still love Sentinels and Bullgryns. Ive seen some list that shows a bunch of units that DKOK can use aside from their own and neither sentinels or bullgryns were listed.
Am I to be sentinelless and gak out of bullgryns?

DKOK do not recieve a doctrine as they do not have the <regiment> keyword. Instead they get WS 3+ and morale immunity from shooting. They can also use non regiment specific stratagems, relics and warlord traits. Hope that helps

Booger ork wrote:
DKOK do not recieve a doctrine as they do not have the <regiment> keyword. Instead they get WS 3+ and morale immunity from shooting. They can also use non regiment specific stratagems, relics and warlord traits. Hope that helps

It does, thank you!

Hi Soulless, good news on the Ogryns & Sentinels - because you have no regimental bonus, you have nothing to lose from mixing different AM units into your main detachments - they all share the <astra militarum> tag so no problem there. The only drawback is that the units you mix in won't gain regimental bonuses either, but that's not a deal breaker.

The biggest upside to Krieg are their assault units: Drill, deathriders and grenadiers strapped with heavy weapons in a Centaur for the scout move. They are all gold, and Engineers are great fun too. I'd prioritise those

The other big upside is that you can spec a big group of squaddies for CC! The command squad banner, a priest, and marshal Venner riding alongside lots of infantry squads, with the seargent carrying a powerfist or powermaul, is a very pokey set up. First round of CC each krieger is attacking 3 times at 3+, with the Searg attacking 4 times with his S6 powerfist! Second round they can be ordered to attack twice by Karis, and all have a very high leadership because of his bubble, which is important as in CC Krieg suffer morale losses like everyone else.

The big letdown is Guns. Our specialised weapons don't meet guard levels, and we can't get rerolls to hit for love nor money. Hope that gives you some idea of the army's strengths and weaknesses, and welcome to a great iteration of AM! Play them fast and punchy and they can do well, plus your opponent will be over the moon to be facing a different style of AM list for a change.

 grouchoben wrote:
Hi Soulless, good news on the Ogryns & Sentinels - because you have no regimental bonus, you have nothing to lose from mixing different AM units into your main detachments - they all share the <astra militarum> tag so no problem there. The only drawback is that the units you mix in won't gain regimental bonuses either, but that's not a deal breaker.

The biggest upside to Krieg are their assault units: Drill, deathriders and grenadiers strapped with heavy weapons in a Centaur for the scout move. They are all gold, and Engineers are great fun too. I'd prioritise those

The other big upside is that you can spec a big group of squaddies for CC! The command squad banner, a priest, and marshal Venner riding alongside lots of infantry squads, with the seargent carrying a powerfist or powermaul, is a very pokey set up. First round of CC each krieger is attacking 3 times at 3+, with the Searg attacking 4 times with his S6 powerfist! Second round they can be ordered to attack twice by Karis, and all have a very high leadership because of his bubble, which is important as in CC Krieg suffer morale losses like everyone else.

The big letdown is Guns. Our specialised weapons don't meet guard levels, and we can't get rerolls to hit for love nor money. Hope that gives you some idea of the army's strengths and weaknesses, and welcome to a great iteration of AM! Play them fast and punchy and they can do well, plus your opponent will be over the moon to be facing a different style of AM list for a change.

Wow, what an amazing reply and such great info! Thank you so much, ill exhalt you for it even if i dont know such things matter to you!
I never even considered that without a doctrine i cant lose the doctrine, thats a bit of a blessing in disguise at i dont feel as locked and restricted with the listbuilding

I only have the platoon box and two additional squads so far, want them all assembled and prepped for paint before i go on ordering more stuff, im taking this slowly! Which is good as it gives me a lot of time to ask and learn what i want and how to kit it!

I was building all my squads with all lasguns and one flamer to keep it simple and consistent, but now im thinking you might be right about the sergants.

Hey, my pleasure! Good to hear another Krieger starting up! As to how you build your infantry squad, that's your call and is down to personal taste really. A flamer plus a CC sergeant is not a bad call at all - I tend to go for a plasma gunner. Risky but at 12" he should be hitting once at S8 -3 2D, and that's capable of chipping damage off a big target. Flamer is more niche, but if you're planning on charging up the board anyway, it can be of use. Really I'd proxy for a game or two and see what you prefer before you glue

Yeah, take your time and enjoy painting such nice models, you're doing it the right way imo. They're too expensive to build any other way.

IMO a Russ Conqueror (amazing but short range, due to their co-axial rule), a Deathrider squad, an engineer squad or some grenadiers plus a centaur would be your best choice when it comes time to buy another unit.

 grouchoben wrote:
Hey, my pleasure! Good to hear another Krieger starting up! As to how you build your infantry squad, that's your call and is down to personal taste really. A flamer plus a CC sergeant is not a bad call at all - I tend to go for a plasma gunner. Risky but at 12" he should be hitting once at S8 -3 2D, and that's capable of chipping damage off a big target. Flamer is more niche, but if you're planning on charging up the board anyway, it can be of use. Really I'd proxy for a game or two and see what you prefer before you glue

Yeah, take your time and enjoy painting such nice models, you're doing it the right way imo. They're too expensive to build any other way.

IMO a Russ Conqueror (amazing but short range, due to their co-axial rule), a Deathrider squad, an engineer squad or some grenadiers plus a centaur would be your best choice when it comes time to buy another unit.

Some sound advice right there!
Ive sadly already glued together most of my infantry squads but ive more or less prepared myself to go back and cut into the sergeants, I just need to decide between fists or mauls. Powerfists are awesome but on a Krieg sergeant, im thinking a battered, broken-down powermaul could look absolutely fantastic!

As for specials, nothing feels more right then flamers on these guys! But ill be getting some extra models so I can exchange the special weapons if I want to, plasmas does seem to be a big deal so thats likely what ill do.

Further then this I havent really though about, next order will be a smaller one to get some officers and extra special weapons but after that I was hoping to get started on the Riders. FW is currently out of stock on most of them though and who knows for how long.

And I really whould get the digital Index I guess

Correct me if i am wrong, but don't you also get access to Heavy Stubbers and or twin heavy stubbers? In my experience they are a good option, as in they are literally dirt cheap whilest still maintaining a decent firepower.The aesthetic on those is absolute genius.
Then again since mortars are now basically bread and butter for any AM and or AM wannabee(R&H) it could not be bad to bring some along, however the look of them with wheels kinda irks me.

As for the digital copy, quite frankly it is cheaper, instant and equal, the only inconvenience might be that you need to print out the rules yourself, via screenshots.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Correct me if i am wrong, but don't you also get access to Heavy Stubbers and or twin heavy stubbers? In my experience they are a good option, as in they are literally dirt cheap whilest still maintaining a decent firepower.The aesthetic on those is absolute genius.
Then again since mortars are now basically bread and butter for any AM and or AM wannabee(R&H) it could not be bad to bring some along, however the look of them with wheels kinda irks me.

As for the digital copy, quite frankly it is cheaper, instant and equal, the only inconvenience might be that you need to print out the rules yourself, via screenshots.

For the heavy weapons teams, I think you are correct though I dont know. But Krieg cant take heavy weapons in their infantry squads so right now I only have the 3 lascannons and the 3 Autocannons I got with the platoon box

Im looking into getting a new pad soon, my current one is almost unusable as its become so slow and crashes all the time. Ive put off the digital purchase partly because of this. Im not against digital rulebooks, with a decent pad its a superb gaming supplement, but I also enjoy physical books. What else would I do with my bookcase!?

Well i guess you could use the shelves for your DKoK modells.
Jokes aside that sucks. Honestly you will need just a computer and then print the rules for yourself, electronic devices tend to die on me in the most stupid situation and at the most stupid of times so i might be biased against them. However i am also not willing to pay more and tarrifs for importing the book via mail order.

Thankfully my R&H are not that restricted in regards to the equipment. However i am certain that grenadiers get stubbers as a special weapon option, so there is that.

You can mix heavy weapons in heavy weapon squads now. They don't need to be identical, and with the current 40k rules, they can shoot at different targets. This may seem insignificant, but I'm experimenting with a AAB type setup, with the third weapon being either heavy bolter or stubber for self defense.

Also, as far as I know, DKoK can't use IG stratagems, as it was addressed in the FAQ.

"Q: Can Death Korps of Krieg, Elysian Drop Troops or Renegades and Heretics Detachments use any of the Regiment specific rules (Doctrines, Orders, Stratagems, Warlord Traits, etc.) in Codex: Astra Militarum?
A: No. Instead these units use the bespoke abilities and Orders that are described in Imperial Armour – Index:Forces of the Astra Militarum."

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/imperial_armour_index_forces_of_the_astra_militarum-1.pdf

 Zingraff wrote:
You can mix heavy weapons in heavy weapon squads now. They don't need to be identical, and with the current 40k rules, they can shoot at different targets. This may seem insignificant, but I'm experimenting with a AAB type setup, with the third weapon being either heavy bolter or stubber for self defense.

Also, as far as I know, DKoK can't use IG stratagems, as it was addressed in the FAQ.

"Q: Can Death Korps of Krieg, Elysian Drop Troops or Renegades and Heretics Detachments use any of the Regiment specific rules (Doctrines, Orders, Stratagems, Warlord Traits, etc.) in Codex: Astra Militarum?
A: No. Instead these units use the bespoke abilities and Orders that are described in Imperial Armour – Index:Forces of the Astra Militarum."

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/imperial_armour_index_forces_of_the_astra_militarum-1.pdf

DKoK and others lack stratagems.
I personally wouldn't bother with heavy weapon squdas in that setup, whilest yes you don't need to concentrate fire anymore, it is still in my opinion favourable in most cases.
Also why would you take a Heavy bolter / Stubber, for squad defense when you easily could take a mortar?
I personally went over and began hidding heavy weapons such as mortars in my militia squads. basically i am abusing 15 extra hitpoints to hide mortars, and have concluded that it is possible to out mortar an regular AM list. Be advised tho that you most likely will recive a beating for pulling that move.

(20 man militia squad Vox 2 mortars---> 2 x 10 man command squads with comand Vox and 1 mortar , rerolls from cp on the command squad morale can guarantee you statistically a morale of 8+ on the whole battlefield, whilest the mortars are not targetable.)

 Zingraff wrote:
You can mix heavy weapons in heavy weapon squads now. They don't need to be identical, and with the current 40k rules, they can shoot at different targets. This may seem insignificant, but I'm experimenting with a AAB type setup, with the third weapon being either heavy bolter or stubber for self defense.

Also, as far as I know, DKoK can't use IG stratagems, as it was addressed in the FAQ.

"Q: Can Death Korps of Krieg, Elysian Drop Troops or Renegades and Heretics Detachments use any of the Regiment specific rules (Doctrines, Orders, Stratagems, Warlord Traits, etc.) in Codex: Astra Militarum?
A: No. Instead these units use the bespoke abilities and Orders that are described in Imperial Armour – Index:Forces of the Astra Militarum."

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/imperial_armour_index_forces_of_the_astra_militarum-1.pdf

But that refers to the "regiment specific" rules, not the generic astra militarum rules that isnt specific to any regiment.

Q: Can Death Korps of Krieg, Elysian Drop Troops or
Renegades and Heretics Detachments use any of the Regiment-
specific rules (Doctrines, Orders, Stratagems, Warlord Traits,
etc.) in
Codex: Astra Militarum
?
A: No. Instead these units use the bespoke abilities and
Orders that are described in
Imperial Armour – Index:
Forces of the Astra Militarum
.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Q: Can Death Korps of Krieg, Elysian Drop Troops or
Renegades and Heretics Detachments use any of the Regiment-
specific rules (Doctrines, Orders, Stratagems, Warlord Traits,
etc.) in
Codex: Astra Militarum
?
A: No. Instead these units use the bespoke abilities and
Orders that are described in
Imperial Armour – Index:
Forces of the Astra Militarum
.

As much as it pains me, but it points us into the direction of the IA book, which does not have any Stratagems, and or other regimental rules.
therefore we will not be able to use those.

Now that I've re-read it, the quote is actually quite unclear and ambiguous. It does say "regiment specific", so you could argue that the "general" AM stratagems are okay.

But the intention behind the sentence, broadly speaking, could also be understood as "none of the extra rules found in Codex: AM, in any shape or form, are allowed in combination with FW created AM factions".

The current FW DKoK list is really half-baked though, and I'm sure if it had been written after the release of the current Codex, it would have allowed stratagems and warlord traits. Also, we already have regimental orders and doctrines, the "Cult of Sacrifice" is more or less a doctrine, in particular in combination with the number of units and wargear specific to DKoK.

So the only two things that are missing are stratagems and warlord traits. To be honest, I thought I knew the answer to this, but the ambiguity of the quote I posted earlier has made me unsure.

Speaking of the clearly rushed and incomplete Index list, you really need the errata that I linked to, because it clears up a number of errors and oversights. However, the Hades Mining Drill was made really ineffectual for Krieg in the current list, and so far it's the only faulty unit they haven't fixed. So I found this reddit post the other day:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/6ws3ae/dkok_engineers_rules_clarification_from/

I've been wanting to write to FW myself to clear up whether this is bogus or not. What do you think?

The current DKoK rules are super half baked. FW continues their long insistence that the infantry-wave attrition army has to have the most expensive IG infantry, with fewer options and abilities than their codex equivalents. Stuff like basic guardsmen being more expensive than codex infantry squads (going back all the way to 4E), Grenadiers not having access to the same weapons complement or abilities as their Scion counterparts, etc. The list needs an update bad

All FW indexes and armies atm are halfbaked. R&H lost around 90% of our customization and options. DKoK dosen't even get stratagems.
Tanks miss keywords: leman Russes that need to get FAQ'ed for the grinding advance rules.
PPM for militia is equal to guardsmen at 4 ppm however are worse by around 25-50% (variation due to regimental keywords and orders compared to differing covenants)
wrong copy and pasted units. (R&H cultists were at the beginnig 5pts before CA, etc.)
Seriously the FW indexes seem like some serious halbaked rush jobs.

I mean...when you look as good as the Krieger, you dont need rules to win!

But it would be nice to see them treated with their own codex! Though im guessing this is far beyond realistic though just as with their models I would pay a lot for it.

Soulless wrote:
I mean...when you look as good as the Krieger, you dont need rules to win!

But it would be nice to see them treated with their own codex! Though im guessing this is far beyond realistic though just as with their models I would pay a lot for it.

That is the only reason why i even take my R&H project still somewhat seriously, however t'is not fun to bring a fully maxed out list to a fluff/fun match and still getting curbstomped by t3 because your only decent unit type (marauders) just all decided to feth off because Heinrich forgot to pull his parachute after dropping out of the valky....

No, i don't want a Codex full of GW bs, i want a proper IA book. You know, it does not need to be good or competitive, but atleast i should be able to reliable play and win fun /fluff matches, not just when i bring the hardest combo against a B/C list of my enemy.
IF GW would write a seperate codex then only for R&H and they would be really, really flavourless, meanwhile DKoK would get lumped even more into AM.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zingraff wrote:
Now that I've re-read it, the quote is actually quite unclear and ambiguous. It does say "regiment specific", so you could argue that the "general" AM stratagems are okay.

But the intention behind the sentence, broadly speaking, could also be understood as "none of the extra rules found in Codex: AM, in any shape or form, are allowed in combination with FW created AM factions".

The current FW DKoK list is really half-baked though, and I'm sure if it had been written after the release of the current Codex, it would have allowed stratagems and warlord traits. Also, we already have regimental orders and doctrines, the "Cult of Sacrifice" is more or less a doctrine, in particular in combination with the number of units and wargear specific to DKoK.

So the only two things that are missing are stratagems and warlord traits. To be honest, I thought I knew the answer to this, but the ambiguity of the quote I posted earlier has made me unsure.

Speaking of the clearly rushed and incomplete Index list, you really need the errata that I linked to, because it clears up a number of errors and oversights. However, the Hades Mining Drill was made really ineffectual for Krieg in the current list, and so far it's the only faulty unit they haven't fixed. So I found this reddit post the other day:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/6ws3ae/dkok_engineers_rules_clarification_from/

I've been wanting to write to FW myself to clear up whether this is bogus or not. What do you think?

Actually to my understanding it is pretty clear:
You have to use the rules and abilities and orders "bespoke" to them in the AM index.
Basically stratagems, rules etc, which are not explicetly mentioned in the index to carry over from the AM codex, seem to be not avilable.
Also it would especially make no sense in the context of R&H, which would most likely NOT get AM Stratagems and instead would get CSM ones, however since they explicetly mention that they use the orders and abilities, of the IA index i think they specifically ment that we don't get any Stratagems at all.

Infantry squad troopers aren't actually that bad now, it's true that they used to be seriously expensive, but at the moment they only cost 1pt more than their equivalents.

For that single extra point you get +3 WS (as opposed to +4), the Watch Master gets +3 BS, a free krak grenade (which in my experience is really useful), and most importantly "Cult of Sacrifice" which stops them from running away when they're shot at. It's a very good deal in my opinion. The only downside is the lack of heavy weapons.

 Zingraff wrote:
Infantry squad troopers aren't actually that bad now, it's true that they used to be seriously expensive, but at the moment they only cost 1pt more than their equivalents.

For that single extra point you get +3 WS (as opposed to +4), a free krak grenade (which in my experience is really useful), and most importantly "Cult of Sacrifice" which stops them from running away when they're shot at. It's a very good deal in my opinion. The only downside is the lack of heavy weapons.

If you consider Cult of Sacrifice to be their regimental doctrine, it's still a good deal.

A unit armed with Krak Grenades is about the only target worth using the Grenadiers stratagem on, for example, because that's amazing.

Krieg absolutely can use genereic AM stratagems, relics and traits. They have keyword <astra militarum> and have a <regiment> amdand therefore meet the requirement. They just cant use cadian, vostroyan, etc.

 Zingraff wrote:
Infantry squad troopers aren't actually that bad now, it's true that they used to be seriously expensive, but at the moment they only cost 1pt more than their equivalents.

theyve been 1ppm more in every edition going back to 4E (where they were 70pts before any upgrades ), GW really wants them to always be more for whatever reason.

For that single extra point you get +3 WS (as opposed to +4), the Watch Master gets +3 BS, a free krak grenade (which in my experience is really useful), and most importantly "Cult of Sacrifice" which stops them from running away when they're shot at. It's a very good deal in my opinion. The only downside is the lack of heavy weapons.

The issue is that, while yes they get all that, Cult of Sacrifice is really the big thing, WS3+ and an errant krak grenade dont add much thats going to really change anything too much, but the Codex doctrines are broadly as powerful if not moreso and are free, the codex infantry dont give up any heavy weapons, dont give up FRFSRF, etc.

 grouchoben wrote:
Krieg absolutely can use genereic AM stratagems, relics and traits. They have keyword <astra militarum> and have a <regiment> amdand therefore meet the requirement. They just cant use cadian, vostroyan, etc.

Yupp I agree, the FAQ mentions specifically "regiment specific" and nothing else.
The other stuff is generic, available for everyone who meets the requirements.

RAW its obvious and very clear as day.
RAI, who knows whats going on in the heads of the authors but can anyone then tell me why on earth DKOK (and elysians) would NOT be considered a part of the Astra Militarum?

Ah, FRFSRF! How I covet thee!