Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Something odd happened during a fight between Death Guard and World Eaters.

My Khorne Berserkers were fighting a Death Guard Demon Prince wearing the Suppurating Plate and the unit suffered 7 mortal wounds as a result, but we weren't sure if these wounds will be inflicted before or after the Berserkers' second fight sequence.

The plate armor inflicts mortal wounds on a 4+ for every successful armor save during the fight phase. The rules for the plate say "the unit that inflicted that wound suffers a mortal wound after all of its own attacks have been resolved." So my Khorne Berserkers did their fight, inflicted a lot of wounds, many were save by the DP, and he rolled a lot of 4+, for a total of 7. Now, do I take those 7 mortal wounds right now or do I get to use Blood For The Blood God to fight an additional time before I lose 7 zerkers? The rule says "all of its own attacks have been resolved," how does a World Eaters' player understand his Berserkers' attacks? Do they have 2 sets of "all" of their attacks, or does each of their fight sequences count together as "all" of their attacks?

On a related, but distinct, note... if my Khorne Berserkers charged this turn do both of their fight sequences count as charging or just the first? Do I get +1A for both fight sequence 1 and 2? Likewise, do I get the attack first on during both fight sequences or is the second fight sequence no longer a charge? If both of the fight sequences count as a charge on the turn that the zerkers charge, and since they will be back to back attacks, is it proper for me to roll both sequences at the same time in order to save time? Or is it necessary to do both fight sequences one after the other (assuming I have no need to pile in or do anything other than roll the dice).

Thanks!

On the second note, both fight activations count as first for charging and yes you get the extra S/A for doing so. You could fight with them, activate and fight with your charging daemon prince, then go back and activate and fought with your zerkers, and then activate and fight with your charging cultists.

Dactylartha wrote:
On the second note, both fight activations count as first for charging and yes you get the extra S/A for doing so. You could fight with them, activate and fight with your charging daemon prince, then go back and activate and fought with your zerkers, and then activate and fight with your charging cultists.

Yes, because chargers all attack first I could swap between all my charging units for tactical reasons. But, in situations where there are no tactical advantages and I'm just going to roll my zerker attacks, kill off guys, then fight again, is it okay for me to just bundle up both sequences into a single roll? My fight phase takes a LONG time, like as long as an IG shooting phase. I feel bad for making my friends sit around while I spend 15 minutes attacking him with all my guys. I'm wondering if I could cut out time by rolling both fight sequences at the same time with zerkers when the opportunity is available. I'm just worried I might be missing something.

From the Main Rulebook FAQ:

Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to fight twice in the Fight phase (e.g. Berzerkers), at what point during the Fight phase do they fight for the second time?

A: Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate unit selected to fight for all purposes.

So, if such a unit charged this turn, it will fight both times before any units that did not charge. If the unit did not charge this turn, then, after all units that did charge have fought, you can select this unit to fight with, then your opponent can select a unit to fight with, then you can select your unit to fight with for the second time (you need not consecutively use both of the unit’s opportunities to fight – unless of course there are no other eligible units to select to fight with).

Note that any rule that interrupts the normal sequence of who fights first (such as the Counter-Offensive Stratagem, or the Slaanesh Daemon Quicksilver Reflexes ability) may be used to fight in between the unit’s first and second ‘fight’.

I think it's fine, but your first fight sequence affects your second - ie models die, you get to consolidate. This might change how the second fight goes before you pile in. Also, your opponent csm interrupt you after your first fight. So just don't make sure you're denying your opponent their options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So yes, it looks like you take those mortal wounds from the plate before you fight again.

So if they did charge it sounds like I'm good to simply roll all the dice at the same time unless something would interrupt their fighting for some odd reason.

The FAQ answer seems to imply that I treat the Khorne Berserker unit as two different units, so they would take mortal wounds from the suppurating plate before they attacked again since the second attack is technically coming from a separate unit.

That's an extremely odd ruling, but that's what it says, yeah?

"Blood for the Blood God: This unit can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once."

You fight once, that includes piling in, "Resolve Close Combat Attacks" and Consolidate.
So you don't get to roll for your next fight phase until his saves have been resolved. And that includes wounding yourself when fighting the Suppurating Plate.
Then you fight again.

 Wibe wrote:
"Blood for the Blood God: This unit can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once."

You fight once, that includes piling in, "Resolve Close Combat Attacks" and Consolidate.
So you don't get to roll for your next fight phase until his saves have been resolved. And that includes wounding yourself when fighting the Suppurating Plate.
Then you fight again.

The Suppurating Plate does not say that the wounds are inflicted as he is being attacked, it specifically states that the wounds are not inflicted until after all the attacks have been resolved. But the Berserkers have all of their attacks and then all of their attacks again, it seems. So they have x2 "all."

As someone can interrupt, and kill all the berserkers, how do you determine that the attacks are finished?

The only option is that all their attacks means all the attacks they can make during that attack sequence. Nothing else is internally consistent.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As someone can interrupt, and kill all the berserkers, how do you determine that the attacks are finished?

The only option is that all their attacks means all the attacks they can make during that attack sequence. Nothing else is internally consistent.

Not everyone can interrupt, in fact, most cannot. The Demon Prince cannot do anything until the berserkers make both attack sequences, and even if he could, his armor does not go into affect when he attacks, it goes into effect after the attacker finishes all of their attacks. Is all of my berserker's attacks only the first fight sequence? To me, that seems like half of their attacks since they have an innate rule that lets them attack twice. I can see how it makes sense that all of their attacks are only the first sequence as the second time they fight is a second time they use all of their attacks. It just depends on how the word "all" is meant. When I talk about my berserkers and I refer to all of their attacks, I'm including both sequences.

If the bezerkers are all dead before they can fight again, then Yes, ALL of their attacks have been completed.

HIWPI:
Berzerkers are activated once. Some attacks are saved by the prince.
All of their attacks have now been competed for this activation, so the wounds from the armour kick in.
The surviving berzerkers are activated a second time.

 Kharneth wrote:

 Wibe wrote:
"Blood for the Blood God: This unit can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once."

You fight once, that includes piling in, "Resolve Close Combat Attacks" and Consolidate.
So you don't get to roll for your next fight phase until his saves have been resolved. And that includes wounding yourself when fighting the Suppurating Plate.
Then you fight again.

The Suppurating Plate does not say that the wounds are inflicted as he is being attacked, it specifically states that the wounds are not inflicted until after all the attacks have been resolved. But the Berserkers have all of their attacks and then all of their attacks again, it seems. So they have x2 "all."

It literally says that.

"The bearer has a Save characteristic of 2+. In addition, roll a dice
each time this model passes a saving throw in the Fight phase. On a
4+, the unit that inflicted that wound suffers a mortal wound after
all of its own attacks have been resolved."

After your attacks have been resolved, that's "part 5" of the fight phase, meaning before you consolidate. Berzerkers fight twice, they don't have double the amount of attacks. I take it that you do pile in and consolidate twice when it benefits you?

 Wibe wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

 Wibe wrote:
"Blood for the Blood God: This unit can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once."

You fight once, that includes piling in, "Resolve Close Combat Attacks" and Consolidate.
So you don't get to roll for your next fight phase until his saves have been resolved. And that includes wounding yourself when fighting the Suppurating Plate.
Then you fight again.

The Suppurating Plate does not say that the wounds are inflicted as he is being attacked, it specifically states that the wounds are not inflicted until after all the attacks have been resolved. But the Berserkers have all of their attacks and then all of their attacks again, it seems. So they have x2 "all."

It literally says that.

"The bearer has a Save characteristic of 2+. In addition, roll a dice
each time this model passes a saving throw in the Fight phase. On a
4+, the unit that inflicted that wound suffers a mortal wound after
all of its own attacks have been resolved."

After your attacks have been resolved, that's "part 5" of the fight phase, meaning before you consolidate. Berzerkers fight twice, they don't have double the amount of attacks. I take it that you do pile in and consolidate twice when it benefits you?

Wait, do I get to pile in 3", attack, and then consolidate 3"? Meaning my berserkers have a total of 12" by the end of the fight phase? That's ridiculous.

Oh yes, I see how part 5 of the fight sequence is the same point that the suppurating plate is referring to. When I looked at the fight sequence to get an answer I did not notice that and wasn't sure how to imply "all." The FAQ cleared it up already, but I see how the fight sequence answers the question.

 Kharneth wrote:

 Wibe wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

 Wibe wrote:
"Blood for the Blood God: This unit can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once."

You fight once, that includes piling in, "Resolve Close Combat Attacks" and Consolidate.
So you don't get to roll for your next fight phase until his saves have been resolved. And that includes wounding yourself when fighting the Suppurating Plate.
Then you fight again.

The Suppurating Plate does not say that the wounds are inflicted as he is being attacked, it specifically states that the wounds are not inflicted until after all the attacks have been resolved. But the Berserkers have all of their attacks and then all of their attacks again, it seems. So they have x2 "all."

It literally says that.

"The bearer has a Save characteristic of 2+. In addition, roll a dice
each time this model passes a saving throw in the Fight phase. On a
4+, the unit that inflicted that wound suffers a mortal wound after
all of its own attacks have been resolved."

After your attacks have been resolved, that's "part 5" of the fight phase, meaning before you consolidate. Berzerkers fight twice, they don't have double the amount of attacks. I take it that you do pile in and consolidate twice when it benefits you?

Wait, do I get to pile in 3", attack, and then consolidate 3"? Meaning my berserkers have a total of 12" by the end of the fight phase? That's ridiculous.

Oh yes, I see how part 5 of the fight sequence is the same point that the suppurating plate is referring to. When I looked at the fight sequence to get an answer I did not notice that and wasn't sure how to imply "all." The FAQ cleared it up already, but I see how the fight sequence answers the question.

You haven't been doing that? "Charge x, pile in 3, fight, consolidate 3, pile in 3, fight, consolidate 3".
And if you place your units right, you can tie down almost the entire enemy gunline. Just remember that you can only attack units you declared a charge against, but nothing is stopping you from dragging other units into combat. And most gunline units/tanks cant really hurt you in cc.
And if you are really on a roll, use "Fury of Khorne (3CP)" to fight a 3rd time...

 Wibe wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

 Wibe wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

 Wibe wrote:
"Blood for the Blood God: This unit can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once."

You fight once, that includes piling in, "Resolve Close Combat Attacks" and Consolidate.
So you don't get to roll for your next fight phase until his saves have been resolved. And that includes wounding yourself when fighting the Suppurating Plate.
Then you fight again.

The Suppurating Plate does not say that the wounds are inflicted as he is being attacked, it specifically states that the wounds are not inflicted until after all the attacks have been resolved. But the Berserkers have all of their attacks and then all of their attacks again, it seems. So they have x2 "all."

It literally says that.

"The bearer has a Save characteristic of 2+. In addition, roll a dice
each time this model passes a saving throw in the Fight phase. On a
4+, the unit that inflicted that wound suffers a mortal wound after
all of its own attacks have been resolved."

After your attacks have been resolved, that's "part 5" of the fight phase, meaning before you consolidate. Berzerkers fight twice, they don't have double the amount of attacks. I take it that you do pile in and consolidate twice when it benefits you?

Wait, do I get to pile in 3", attack, and then consolidate 3"? Meaning my berserkers have a total of 12" by the end of the fight phase? That's ridiculous.

Oh yes, I see how part 5 of the fight sequence is the same point that the suppurating plate is referring to. When I looked at the fight sequence to get an answer I did not notice that and wasn't sure how to imply "all." The FAQ cleared it up already, but I see how the fight sequence answers the question.

You haven't been doing that? "Charge x, pile in 3, fight, consolidate 3, pile in 3, fight, consolidate 3".
And if you place your units right, you can tie down almost the entire enemy gunline. Just remember that you can only attack units you declared a charge against, but nothing is stopping you from dragging other units into combat. And most gunline units/tanks cant really hurt you in cc.
And if you are really on a roll, use "Fury of Khorne (3CP)" to fight a 3rd time...

Yes, all of that. The only thing I've been missing is the consolidating!

What I've been doing is:

Charge, pile in 3, attack, pile in 3, consolidate 3 if the unit is dead. So I've been missing out on 6"! I could use my positioning to be extremely cheesy, but I play with friends and have been wiping the floor with them so I've been avoiding the cheesy tactics. I will keep in mind my extra movements, though, and I will continue to look out for those tactical positions so that when I decide to employ them I will know how.

Day 1 of my 8th edition experience all my buddies were like "melee got hit hard, it's all about shooting in 8th" and I said "so, like every edition!" but I've been playing for like 6 weeks now and I feel like my World Eaters are stronger than ever! I need to go to a tournament soon, though, to experience what it's like to battle people who are really trying.

 Kharneth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As someone can interrupt, and kill all the berserkers, how do you determine that the attacks are finished?

The only option is that all their attacks means all the attacks they can make during that attack sequence. Nothing else is internally consistent.

Not everyone can interrupt, in fact, most cannot.

Everyone can interrupt with the 2 CP stratagem from the BRB.

 p5freak wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As someone can interrupt, and kill all the berserkers, how do you determine that the attacks are finished?

The only option is that all their attacks means all the attacks they can make during that attack sequence. Nothing else is internally consistent.

Not everyone can interrupt, in fact, most cannot.

Everyone can interrupt with the 2 CP stratagem from the BRB.

Fair enough, but no one I play with ever does.