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So now that I have had more than a dozen games with my 1ksons, things look a bit different from my first outlook of the codex. I kinda figured that our DP's and sorcs were going to be pretty much the default chaos command detachment and it seems that this is indeed how things are playing out. Since the Warp Time nerf I have found Tzangors to be far less attractive of a troop choice. At release it was the almost default choice being how good they were. I'm finding Rubrics are not as bad as I originally thought but because of the price, they are far from a tourney tier unit. Ive found that Mutaliths are better than I originally had thought and they do good work vs infantry but don't have much vs armor.

Ive also been very disappointed in fatecaster bows. Its another low powered anti infantry weapon. Auto wounds would be great if it had an AP better -1 and at one damage it cant threaten tanks even with auto wounding. Certainly not bad persay as it gives us fast supporting fire. I found divine spears to be better than most have stated once the unit has been properly supported it can wipe most heavy armor in a single round. The problem is its expensive to provide them a screen as they are paper thin. Overall the unit should have been better. But the big thing that went to making us a weaker faction (outside of command detachments) was the nerfing of our AP on inferno weapons and the loss of army wide +1 invuln ( Given to Deldar for giggles I guess), Nerfing melee alpha strike has devalued the tzaangor bomb.

For a future codex I would like to see us get back our AP on bolters and our +1 invuln. The fact we are the one army whos chapter tactic only buffs our command units is suspect. I would like to see a few stratagems focused on rubrics and a few tweeks to distinguish SoTs from Rubrics. Perhaps making their power weapons 2 damage? I'm not sure. Overall the codex is stronger than I first gave it credit for landing it somewhere just above mid tier but lower than tourney tier. It was depressing not getting any new models outside of AoS ports but most factions have not received new releases so its not a lonely room.

So, how do the rest of you 1ksons feel now that we have time to run the codex in multiple games? Did any of your predictions fail to manifest? If so which ones? And whats your standout units? Just remember that opinions are opinions, no need for bickering.

I still think Tzaangors have great value. A friend of me runs Tzaangor Rhino rush backed by 3 Daemon Princes as his core, Tabled (or almost tabled, i.e. I lost more than 80% while he lost less than or just around 50%) my Guilliman Ultramarine army every time. Of course, he got 1st turn whenever we played game is one important factor as I only get 1 round of shooting.

Usually I only able to kill 2 Rhinos (he pop smoke and my dice are always bad) before the rest of the army crash in. 3 rhinos kills off screening scouts with Storm Bolter and charge into Guilliman and tie him up for 2 turns, then it is basically game over as all the rest Tzaangors and Daemon Princes would wipe everything SM have.

Pretty much just run a supreme command detachment. Ahriman and daemon princes are the stars of the show.

Against certain armies like Admech, Tau and Guard, you can give a giant middle finger to any blob of infantry with a hearty amount of Rubric Marines. Stick them in cover, and watch literally anything below a -2 AP whiff hard.

But against admech you've got 5 or 6 Kastelan robots that ignore cover, have ap-2 and can output 6x3 shots per robot that with splitfire can just delete MSUs better than anyone else when next to cawl.

 kastelen wrote:
But against admech you've got 5 or 6 Kastelan robots that ignore cover, have ap-2 and can output 6x3 shots per robot that with splitfire can just delete MSUs better than anyone else when next to cawl.

SSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

My experience with 1ksons is that I wanted to play them, but then Rubrics and Scarabs were bad, so I didn't buy any. Several months later, they are still bad and I still haven't bought any. GW can change this at any time by giving them some useful stratagems, traits, or other buffs.

Rubrics aren’t bad.

 kastelen wrote:
But against admech you've got 5 or 6 Kastelan robots that ignore cover, have ap-2 and can output 6x3 shots per robot that with splitfire can just delete MSUs better than anyone else when next to cawl.

Rubrics are best equipped for these if they're in cover - they remove all the AP. 660 points to remove ~180 points of rubrics.

If you have rhinos they wont need to take it on the chin.

Just be sure you knock some out before turn 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 meleti wrote:
Rubrics aren’t bad.

I'd like to see them at 16 points, but saving 40 points isn't going to drastically change my lists. A soulreaper in 5 would be grand though.

Keep in mind I did not say that Tzaangors were unusable or bad, Infact they are still a great unit. I just stated they lost a bit of value since the alpha strike nerfs. I'm also really interest to see what people have been doing with fatecaster bows.

Table wrote:
Keep in mind I did not say that Tzaangors were unusable or bad, Infact they are still a great unit. I just stated they lost a bit of value since the alpha strike nerfs. I'm also really interest to see what people have been doing with fatecaster bows.

Dark matter crystal

30 tzaangors can still get in your enemy’s face pretty quickly.

Yeah, 30 with the brayhorn & crystal, having cast gaze of fate for the double-dice reroll potential, means a flerd can still pretty reliably get a 1st turn charge. Not many armies can.

 grouchoben wrote:
Yeah, 30 with the brayhorn & crystal, having cast gaze of fate for the double-dice reroll potential, means a flerd can still pretty reliably get a 1st turn charge. Not many armies can.

Exactly. I did this on Monday to a strong raven wing list - it works really well as people now don’t expect the 1st turn charge like they did before.

What AP changes are you talking about ? They were always AP-2 on the bolters ?

 Aaranis wrote:
What AP changes are you talking about ? They were always AP-2 on the bolters ?

People don't like that they no longer ignore 3+ armor entirely. So I guess they would want rubric bolters to be AP-4?

the_scotsman wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
What AP changes are you talking about ? They were always AP-2 on the bolters ?

People don't like that they no longer ignore 3+ armor entirely. So I guess they would want rubric bolters to be AP-4?

But then they'd be hilariously expensive. I'd prefer to actually be able to BRING rubrics.

 vaklor4 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
What AP changes are you talking about ? They were always AP-2 on the bolters ?

People don't like that they no longer ignore 3+ armor entirely. So I guess they would want rubric bolters to be AP-4?

But then they'd be hilariously expensive. I'd prefer to actually be able to BRING rubrics.

Post smite buff, I've liked my Rubrics just fine. It's given me all the more reason to use important buff/support spells on them and I've swapped back to a 2x5 setup from my 1x10w/reaper that I was using before in each rhino. I usually have glamour, weaver, boon and temporal running out of my rubrics so my exalted, prince and ahriman can throw a smite every turn and I can have multiple throwaway instances of an important spell like Warptime in reserve (usually both Ahriman and the Prince run it so if they separate from each other they can keep casting it, so prince either casts diabolic/warptime or diabolic/smite, and ahriman casts Firestorm (Gift against T3)/Doombolt/Warptime or Firestorm/Doombolt/Smite if he can get closest to a target. Then the exalt hands out Prescience/Gaze of Destruction but can flex to Smite/Gaze for an aggressive turn.

in the turns where I'm in the thick of the combat and don't need Warptimes anymore, all my HQ sorcs can output max mortal wounds while the rubrics and daemon allies maintain uptime of all the most important buffs (Gaze of Fate, Flickering Flame, Weaver and Glamour). Since the Herald is know two cast one, he also has the option to flex to Gateway in a pinch or a really good situation for it.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
What AP changes are you talking about ? They were always AP-2 on the bolters ?

People don't like that they no longer ignore 3+ armor entirely. So I guess they would want rubric bolters to be AP-4?

Oh I see, I thought they made a change from index to codex or something. I thin Rubricae are pretty good, they're tough, can deep-strike with a stratagem to be in rapid-fire range, use VOTLW (I think it's this one) to have +1 to Wounds, and shoot 20 AP-2 shots at 12". And the units can be even bigger.

T.Sons have one of the best supreme command detachments in the game in terms of utility, mobility, resilience and damage. Ahriman on disc is just plain broken for the points, the DP's are strictly better than any other DP while costing the same points (and DP's are among the most competitive HQs to begin with, and even their exalted or terminator sorcerers have their own merit.

Aside from that, the rest of the army is largely irrelevant, no matter how much people love the dusty boys.

the_scotsman wrote:


Post smite buff, I've liked my Rubrics just fine. It's given me all the more reason to use important buff/support spells on them and I've swapped back to a 2x5 setup from my 1x10w/reaper that I was using before in each rhino. I usually have glamour, weaver, boon and temporal running out of my rubrics so my exalted, prince and ahriman can throw a smite every turn and I can have multiple throwaway instances of an important spell like Warptime in reserve (usually both Ahriman and the Prince run it so if they separate from each other they can keep casting it, so prince either casts diabolic/warptime or diabolic/smite, and ahriman casts Firestorm (Gift against T3)/Doombolt/Warptime or Firestorm/Doombolt/Smite if he can get closest to a target. Then the exalt hands out Prescience/Gaze of Destruction but can flex to Smite/Gaze for an aggressive turn.

in the turns where I'm in the thick of the combat and don't need Warptimes anymore, all my HQ sorcs can output max mortal wounds while the rubrics and daemon allies maintain uptime of all the most important buffs (Gaze of Fate, Flickering Flame, Weaver and Glamour). Since the Herald is know two cast one, he also has the option to flex to Gateway in a pinch or a really good situation for it.

Very much this.

I've also been leaving 220 points open for 20 Horrors and a changecaster. I 4 dice CP the horrors and 2 dice the caster. I also bring a mutalith and get them to S5. A sudden screen with 60 S5 shots does wonders for clearing anyone trying to get to me. The mutalith also does great with diabolic power.

Why don't I take a patrol instead?

1) I don't want to spend for 30 horrors to keep the 3 shots when I need them - 20 gets me the beta strike when I need it.
2) I don't need to spend CP to put them where I want them.
3) I can instead summon a burning chariot and an exalted flamer on foot for a bunch of mini lascannon shots or 3 screamers and a chariot or 7 screams or...you get the idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Aside from that, the rest of the army is largely irrelevant, no matter how much people love the dusty boys.

If you say so.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Post smite buff, I've liked my Rubrics just fine. It's given me all the more reason to use important buff/support spells on them and I've swapped back to a 2x5 setup from my 1x10w/reaper that I was using before in each rhino. I usually have glamour, weaver, boon and temporal running out of my rubrics so my exalted, prince and ahriman can throw a smite every turn and I can have multiple throwaway instances of an important spell like Warptime in reserve (usually both Ahriman and the Prince run it so if they separate from each other they can keep casting it, so prince either casts diabolic/warptime or diabolic/smite, and ahriman casts Firestorm (Gift against T3)/Doombolt/Warptime or Firestorm/Doombolt/Smite if he can get closest to a target. Then the exalt hands out Prescience/Gaze of Destruction but can flex to Smite/Gaze for an aggressive turn.

in the turns where I'm in the thick of the combat and don't need Warptimes anymore, all my HQ sorcs can output max mortal wounds while the rubrics and daemon allies maintain uptime of all the most important buffs (Gaze of Fate, Flickering Flame, Weaver and Glamour). Since the Herald is know two cast one, he also has the option to flex to Gateway in a pinch or a really good situation for it.

Very much this.

I've also been leaving 220 points open for 20 Horrors and a changecaster. I 4 dice CP the horrors and 2 dice the caster. I also bring a mutalith and get them to S5. A sudden screen with 60 S5 shots does wonders for clearing anyone trying to get to me. The mutalith also does great with diabolic power.

Why don't I take a patrol instead?

1) I don't want to spend for 30 horrors to keep the 3 shots when I need them - 20 gets me the beta strike when I need it.
2) I don't need to spend CP to put them where I want them.
3) I can instead summon a burning chariot and an exalted flamer on foot for a bunch of mini lascannon shots or 3 screamers and a chariot or 7 screams or...you get the idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Aside from that, the rest of the army is largely irrelevant, no matter how much people love the dusty boys.

If you say so.

Let me rephrase then: Where I play, the rest of the army is largely irrelevant. Perhaps 27 enlightened would be awesome, but I have not played with them to check my suspicion.

I would also like to add that the tzaangor shamans are actually pretty good. In fact I think they are better than 5-strong rubric teams, while also being cheaper and faster. Rubrics are troops, which is a big thing, they just don't seem to have enough punch for me to justify their cost. If I could have a cannon in 5 models this would be a different discussion. Right now an MSU of rubrics is basically an 107 pt footslogging sorcerer with some nice shooting but very vulnerable to perils and with no character protection. Do I like that deal? Probably. Do I have better deals for sorcerers in my book? definitely.

topaxygouroun i wrote:


Let me rephrase then: Where I play, the rest of the army is largely irrelevant. Perhaps 27 enlightened would be awesome, but I have not played with them to check my suspicion.

I would also like to add that the tzaangor shamans are actually pretty good. In fact I think they are better than 5-strong rubric teams, while also being cheaper and faster. Rubrics are troops, which is a big thing, they just don't seem to have enough punch for me to justify their cost. If I could have a cannon in 5 models this would be a different discussion. Right now an MSU of rubrics is basically an 107 pt footslogging sorcerer with some nice shooting but very vulnerable to perils and with no character protection. Do I like that deal? Probably. Do I have better deals for sorcerers in my book? definitely.

They're quite cumbersome and prone to get smoked y HBC or disintegrators if you don't go first. Otherwise quite good.

Shamans are great post FAQ. I just don't mind paying the extra 17 points for an extra wound and an armor save. Shaman dies to a stiff breeze if you get to him (or snipe). His damage is 2 mortal wounds a turn. Rubrics are 0.83 MW plus bolters, which will usually put them equal depending on the target.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
What AP changes are you talking about ? They were always AP-2 on the bolters ?

People don't like that they no longer ignore 3+ armor entirely. So I guess they would want rubric bolters to be AP-4?

-3 would be fine. It would put them close enough to their intended roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vaklor4 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
What AP changes are you talking about ? They were always AP-2 on the bolters ?

People don't like that they no longer ignore 3+ armor entirely. So I guess they would want rubric bolters to be AP-4?

But then they'd be hilariously expensive. I'd prefer to actually be able to BRING rubrics.

We are paying the same costs (minus a few points) as we did in 7th. But in return our loss of AP on inferno bolters makes rubrics even worse. Id pay 7th edition prices for more AP. Regardless the actual rubric is over priced to being with.

Table wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
What AP changes are you talking about ? They were always AP-2 on the bolters ?

People don't like that they no longer ignore 3+ armor entirely. So I guess they would want rubric bolters to be AP-4?

-3 would be fine. It would put them close enough to their intended roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vaklor4 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
What AP changes are you talking about ? They were always AP-2 on the bolters ?

People don't like that they no longer ignore 3+ armor entirely. So I guess they would want rubric bolters to be AP-4?

But then they'd be hilariously expensive. I'd prefer to actually be able to BRING rubrics.

We are paying the same costs (minus a few points) as we did in 7th. But in return our loss of AP on inferno bolters makes rubrics even worse. Id pay 7th edition prices for more AP. Regardless the actual rubric is over priced to being with.

tbh I'd much rather just see a points drop, or some other buff. Ap-3 rarely makes a difference over ap-2 because so many things pack invuln saves. A slight points drop or something like "ranged weapons held by rubrics increase in damage by 1 if the squad has a psychic power cast on them" would be my ideal world.

I think the gun is fine. But t4 is what really gimps them. I think making them t5 to reflect their immunity to amy real pain would work well

 vaklor4 wrote:
I think the gun is fine. But t4 is what really gimps them. I think making them t5 to reflect their immunity to amy real pain would work well

I think it would be more flavorful if their invuln save went back to 4.

Table wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
I think the gun is fine. But t4 is what really gimps them. I think making them t5 to reflect their immunity to amy real pain would work well

I think it would be more flavorful if their invuln save went back to 4.

That would work too.

They could really use a proper trait and a strat or two. I'd like to see them either get a defensive bonus (t5, 4++ as others have mentioned) or a several point price reduction. Then Give them a 1CP strat that makes them D2 for a turn of shooting, and a 1CP strat that gives rubrics ap -2 in melee, or scarabs +1 str. That would give just the right edge to compete with other similar units.

The new Death Watch really highlights how lackluster rubrics are. DW intercessor is the same points cost but has +1A, +1W, better shooting with special ammo, re-roll wounds of 1, and easy access to HQ that gives full rerolls to hit. They lose the invul, the sorc, and all is dust, but still come out far ahead. Or you can compare the regular storm bolter vet that gets double the shots at ap-1 for a couple points less, and can have 3A if you take a chainsword. Still comes out ahead. And that's before we account for DW special weapons and special rules from unit mixing.

If rubrics could fallback and shoot, even if it needed a strat, that'd also go a long way.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
They could really use a proper trait and a strat or two. I'd like to see them either get a defensive bonus (t5, 4++ as others have mentioned) or a several point price reduction. Then Give them a 1CP strat that makes them D2 for a turn of shooting, and a 1CP strat that gives rubrics ap -2 in melee, or scarabs +1 str. That would give just the right edge to compete with other similar units.

The new Death Watch really highlights how lackluster rubrics are. DW intercessor is the same points cost but has +1A, +1W, better shooting with special ammo, re-roll wounds of 1, and easy access to HQ that gives full rerolls to hit. They lose the invul, the sorc, and all is dust, but still come out far ahead. Or you can compare the regular storm bolter vet that gets double the shots at ap-1 for a couple points less, and can have 3A if you take a chainsword. Still comes out ahead. And that's before we account for DW special weapons and special rules from unit mixing.

If rubrics could fallback and shoot, even if it needed a strat, that'd also go a long way.

At this point I have given up on rubrics being a competitive unit. GW has had 20 years (??) to make them so and has failed each codex. While they are not a horrible unit I only take them for flavor and fun. Contrary to most others opinions I think rubrics are worse in many ways this edition than last edition with the nerfs they have received. Perhaps the next codex will address this. Not holding my breath.