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What I am planning


Terminators


Tactical Marines




??? Dreadnaught

Awesome! Writing rules for Squats/Forgefathers has kind of slipped off the bottom of my "to do" list, but playing them as Counts As Marines is not a bad choice!

Mark.

Agree - those are well-equipped Squats that would use Marine rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Rule of Cool" may not be in the rulebook anymore, but most players still regard it as a first-tier rule. Above things like "Roll 2d6 when charging", on the same level as "Don't touch my minis without asking" or "Don't cheat".

Counts-as, when the intent is that they're the models you want to use, and not an attempt to cheap out or a rebranding of proxying, is awesome. One of the best things in the hobby.

(The counts-as may be cheaper, but if price were your reason for choosing counts-as, you're really just proxying.)

In all honesty, price is a consideration, not the only, but is a consideration. I also want something "thematic", and that is not to confusing.

I am also trying hard to wrap my brain around how to use the first pic (marked as terminators) as Centurian Devastators. In part because I think they thematically fit (bulky/heavy armor), and because I want to save elites for some other things I am planning...However I like the hammers, and feel they should have a melee weapon...ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGgg!

I generally dont have an issue with it as long as the model is clear as to what it's trying to represent.

The other thing to consider is conversions to help identify the different units that you are representing with your counts as model's. Nothing worse than playing against the army of all the same models but each unit represents different equipment and it being impossible to tell them appart.

Ice_can wrote:
The other thing to consider is conversions to help identify the different units that you are representing with your counts as model's. Nothing worse than playing against the army of all the same models but each unit represents different equipment and it being impossible to tell them apart.

Defiantly agree...thus why I am having a problem with the Forge Guard...I do think they are better as a "larger" type...

I feel bad if it concerns miniatures.
Therefore I dont buy them.

A friend is selling me his forge fathers for $40

Includes the above picture, a war-machine, and a separate hero type (and a dog...)

I only use first party. As for kitbashing, if I have the extra pieces...

Set the "Rule of Cool" against "Modelling for Advantage".
WYSIWYG has to factor in for playability, of course.
If the coolness wins out, do it.
If you get trouble from your opponent, that it their choice.

I think the Dark Angels Captain from the Dark Vengeance set would make an excellent "Counts As" Azrael. And, I wouldn't mind at all if people used it as such.

SG

I don't have any particular issue with 3rd party stuff, as long as it looks the part and fits in without any stupid for advantage changes.

It's a bit of a sliding scale though; recasting is out. That's just plain theft no matter what justifications people trot out.

new interpretations of full figures can be cool, though ideally mixed in with GW stuff if viable. If it's unsupported stuff or takes on older armies then that's grand (Squats and so on).

3rd party bits I've got all the time in the world for, making your armies yours and adding all sorts of glam and flash is a huge part of the hobby for me, if you do it via plasticard and greenstuff or with 3rd party bits it doesn't matter.

Use what you want, feth anyone who balks.


I have those Forge father minis, they’re next up on the paint list. Also have Antares minis and AT-43 Karmans I’m trying to find 40K uses for (as their own army, not count-as). Top it all off, I have a Gundam Endless Waltz Heavy Arms I’m using for a Stormsurge(until the day I decide the GW model is worth actually buying - even then, I’ll probably kitbash it to have arms).

Bharring wrote:
Agree - those are well-equipped Squats that would use Marine rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Rule of Cool" may not be in the rulebook anymore, but most players still regard it as a first-tier rule. Above things like "Roll 2d6 when charging", on the same level as "Don't touch my minis without asking" or "Don't cheat".

Counts-as, when the intent is that they're the models you want to use, and not an attempt to cheap out or a rebranding of proxying, is awesome. One of the best things in the hobby.

(The counts-as may be cheaper, but if price were your reason for choosing counts-as, you're really just proxying.)

"Don't touch my minis without asking" is well above those other rules for me. Wasting my time with cheating I'm obviously no fan of, but start manhandling my minis and you're very quickly going to find yourself not being a fan of me, for one of multiple reasons depending on the severity. Some gak just transcends the gameplay a little.

 parakuribo wrote:
I only use first party. As for kitbashing, if I have the extra pieces...

But why just restrict yourself to GW parts? There's a whole wealth of appropriate bits (and entire models) out there for making excellent thematic counts as models.

Unless you only play in GW stores there is literally no reason to restrict yourself like this.

Just a silly question - is there such a thing as 2nd party items? It’s not the same as 2nd hand, is it?

Generally the term "third party" is based around a third and separate (unbiased?) party which is not involved in a conflict between two parties. At least that's how it evolved from what I understand.

It doesn't have anything to do with second hand.

It doesn't work particularly well with regard to alternate companies producing an option for models...but whatever.

Sure, if it obeys rule of cool.

In theory, 1st party is the primary vendor (GW) and 2nd party is the one involved with them (the player, but in theory both players during a game).

Third party generally means someone not otherwise involved. In the case of minatures here, it just means "Not GW minis".

"After-market" is another phrase people use.

Models I'd love to make that players but not GW would be fine with are some recast some stealth suits or a Ghostkeel. This would be with a clear resin then going over it with a light wash. Not 3rd party at all and clearly not for resale. Not sure where that would fit in.

As for someone facing off against me with 3rd party models, as long as they're close in size and I can tell what they're supposed to be (assuming I could with the GW models in the first place), I just hope they look good

So more specificaly, Would this be to far



As Centurian Devastators (The hammer representing Lascannons...throwing the hammer )

Matora wrote:
Models I'd love to make that players but not GW would be fine with are some recast some stealth suits or a Ghostkeel. This would be with a clear resin then going over it with a light wash. Not 3rd party at all and clearly not for resale. Not sure where that would fit in.

As for someone facing off against me with 3rd party models, as long as they're close in size and I can tell what they're supposed to be (assuming I could with the GW models in the first place), I just hope they look good

To me it's fine. Literally no difference in price hit to GW whether you scratch build, or use recasts. Hell the second one actually advertises their model for them. There's a lot of "you didn't match my monetary investment" at times and I think it's funny. It won't fly at a GW event though, but you could probably get a T.O. to pass it at a non-GW event if you contacted him in advance and showed that you owned the original models too (waaa match muh financial investment, and all that). Then again he's just as likely to say "well since you own the original models just use them".

I'm ok with 3rd party models but not knockoff Chinese junk. If it's a 3rd party model like a female commissar or something that looks cool that's great but if it's just someone being to cheap to buy GW stuff that's a no go. Also it's basically stealing from GW and hurting the community as a whole.

 Stormonu wrote:
Just a silly question - is there such a thing as 2nd party items? It’s not the same as 2nd hand, is it?

Let's look at it from a Video Game standpoint first then we'll move to a model standpoint.

So, Microsoft Game Studios is a first party developer. They are owned and staffed by MS employees. Rare is a second party developer as they are a completely separate company that was bought by Microsoft and no cannot even go take a leak without Microsoft's permission. Third party developers would be someone like Bungie (who left MS several years ago) having a game published by MS. Yes, MS has a large say in what is done by 3rd party developers since they are putting the money in to get it developed and published. But, they don't have as much say in how the company is run as they do with Ms Game Studios or Rare.

Games Workshop is a first party model creator. If I'm not mistaken, Games Workshop owns Forgeworld and Forgeworld models are allowed in all GW sanctioned events. So, I do believe that Forgeworld is a 2nd party model maker. In this case, a third party would be like buying a Minecraft toy set from Walmart and using them as Warhammer models.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is correct.

SG

The first party is the perveyor of the product. The second party is the purchaser of said product. A third party would be someone who either augments or replaces parts of the product sometimes with permission and sometimes without that permission.

So in 40K terms GW is the first party. The consumer is the second party and anyone offering services that effect the game (such as bit sellers or people making variant models) is a third party.

I saw an a phenomenal Primaris snowman army on facebook the other day and thought....I'd play that. As long as the models look like to some degree what they are supposed to be I'm all for it...Ponies included...I love good imagination and bonus I get to kill ponies.... :-)

as long as the model isn't confusing, and the weapon represented is close to what the rules state, I'm cool with whatever.

My friend in 2nd edition had a tyranid army where he had dozens of pennies as hormagaunts.

Another thing I'll tell you is that you should feel free to use proxies, counts as, and even cool conversions. It's honestly the best part of the hobby, IMHO- the fact that you can take the models and tweak them and make them 'your dudes'.

GW's prices are still kind of absurd. Not to mention, one person could easily argue that a lot of factions- even Space Marine Chapters- don't get enough 'love'.

All I'll say is be careful with the size of your models and people who are obsessed with 'True Line of Sight'.