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With the major price reductions found in the new Knights Codex (as well as the huge weapon buffs) should the Xenos counterparts (Wraith Knights, Ork Nauts, Ork Stompa and Chaos Knights) obtain a buff? Or a points reduction at least?

Why and what would you do to even the playing feild? (I know the Ork codex is not out yet but humour me and tell me what you would do to make the walkers better?)

(I was told to leave the other knight thread so made this one... feel free to talk anything knight or knightly here... hell even talk like your a knight if you want to. "Thy would not be so kindly to the likes of the xenos scum walkers who dare believe themselves noble enough to fight with a knight").

For orks I would like them to be like in fluff where they soak up damage, are on fire and STILL keep coming on. Obviously either more wounds or some sort of inv/fnp save helps. More wounds faster, save exciting. I would also use the damage chart tables and have them have less steps than usual and have them degrade slower. Thus getting hit several times won't put much of a dent so enemy needs to blow them apart.

Then just plenty of guns, choppyness and reasonable price.

tneva82 wrote:
For orks I would like them to be like in fluff where they soak up damage, are on fire and STILL keep coming on. Obviously either more wounds or some sort of inv/fnp save helps. More wounds faster, save exciting. I would also use the damage chart tables and have them have less steps than usual and have them degrade slower. Thus getting hit several times won't put much of a dent so enemy needs to blow them apart.

Then just plenty of guns, choppyness and reasonable price.

I would pay a GW designer a lot of money if he made a rule that you can have as many guns as you like as long as you pay their points and it's modelled on the model.

I think the biggest change is applying what they tried with custodes to their weapons: Expensive models now get guns with tons of shots and damage so they cause the similar damage as the same amount of points spent on cheaper models - unlike nauts or the stompa who are outgunned by any of the larger dreads (Contemptor/Redemptor).

 Jidmah wrote:
I think the biggest change is applying what they tried with custodes to their weapons: Expensive models now get guns with tons of shots and damage so they cause the similar damage as the same amount of points spent on cheaper models - unlike nauts or the stompa who are outgunned by any of the larger dreads (Contemptor/Redemptor).

No joke, my contemptor dread 1 shot a Morkanaut of the feild in 1 turn by melting him first and charging him for like 10 damage or something. I felt bad... especially because it was my models I let my mate borrow and knew tye points costs like the back of my hand. XD

Wraithknights are in a really bad place, they were already more expensive and less effective than an index IK and that gap is only going to get bigger now.

Frankly it needs a 5++ as standard with the Scattershield boosting that to a 4++, the Heavy Wraithcannons getting a flat damage 6 (Distort weapons are supposed to be the most powerful weapons in the game, yet currently the Heavy Wraitcannon is only slightly more effective than a twin Lascannon) and the Suncannon a massive reduction in points. We may well be in the realm of usability then.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I think the biggest change is applying what they tried with custodes to their weapons: Expensive models now get guns with tons of shots and damage so they cause the similar damage as the same amount of points spent on cheaper models - unlike nauts or the stompa who are outgunned by any of the larger dreads (Contemptor/Redemptor).

No joke, my contemptor dread 1 shot a Morkanaut of the feild in 1 turn by melting him first and charging him for like 10 damage or something. I felt bad... especially because it was my models I let my mate borrow and knew tye points costs like the back of my hand. XD

Sorry but THAT I have hard time believing. I can believe he dented it hard(he would dent a knight hard) with some lucky dice rolls but even maximum damage for contemptator is 4 attacks each 3 damage max=12 and then melta=6 and that's 18 total which is morkanaut level. Average result is 7.43 wounds so not even putting gorkanaut on next damage chart. Morkanaut bit less due to inv to the melta shot.

If the new knights are legit 600 points or less all in then GW really overcosted almost everything in the LOW slot for every other faction bar maybe IG.

Heck some of them felt outclassed by shadowswords and baneblades, but with this around I don't understand how GW can justify the points costs.

Well either this is going to be the new broken soup combo of IG Knights and dawneagle dbags.

Well all I can say it wait for CA 2018 and let see if it finally becomes 28mm Epic 40k.

While I'm not a mathhammer or meta-gamer, I'd be very hard pressed to justify spending the money to buy a Wraithknight and run it without feeling like I was throwing the game away. The cost is pretty extreme for the vastly limited ability to put out damage.

As is so often the case, the issue is points.

Many things, especially in the case of Knights and their equivalents just cost too much for what you're really getting on the table. I think so much could be solved with a sensible and consistent points allocation system at design level, and I'm pretty convinced no such thing exists.

Even the most powerful and useful of units can generally be made really pretty sensible if it's costed correctly.

Stompas and Wraithknights are absolute, unfiltered, 100% organic, GMO free, locally sourced, allergy free, triple filtered garbage. They need price reductions, VAST price reductions. My 635 point Lord of Skulls can absolutely wipe the floor with a Stompa, which can clock in at over 1000.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Stompas and Wraithknights are absolute, unfiltered, 100% organic, GMO free, locally sourced, allergy free, triple filtered garbage. They need price reductions, VAST price reductions. My 635 point Lord of Skulls can absolutely wipe the floor with a Stompa, which can clock in at over 1000.

Stompas being 100% garbage is to be expected given the way points have tumbled in most codex's. The bigger worry is more things that have codex's and are still hot garbage, such as eldar knights, and all the imperial armour LOW which quite frankly feel like someone involved in CA had a vendetta against FW when you compare thier points costs to IG LoW or Knights leaks.

 Imateria wrote:
Frankly it needs a 5++ as standard with the Scattershield boosting that to a 4++, the Heavy Wraithcannons getting a flat damage 6 (Distort weapons are supposed to be the most powerful weapons in the game, yet currently the Heavy Wraitcannon is only slightly more effective than a twin Lascannon) and the Suncannon a massive reduction in points. We may well be in the realm of usability then.

Those are some of the best suggestions for the WK I have seen. Not sure about the flat 6 damage for the HWC though. That seems a bit too reliable. I'd rather they get an extra shot, or 2d6 damage on a wound roll of 6. Something like that.
But the easiest change would be to just drop it by 100pts. Done

-

Wraithknights are in a very difficult place, both in durability and firepower. It wouldn’t be unreasonable to give them a free spirit stones-esque buff, which there is precedent for including on a datasheet (Hemlocks). Drop the base cost by about 75, double the shots on the suncannon, and improve to the wraithcannons by giving them additional mortal wounds on hits (to represent being pulled into/torn apart by the warp rifts generated).

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Wraithknights are in a very difficult place, both in durability and firepower. It wouldn’t be unreasonable to give them a free spirit stones-esque buff, which there is precedent for including on a datasheet (Hemlocks). Drop the base cost by about 75, double the shots on the suncannon, and improve to the wraithcannons by giving them additional mortal wounds on hits (to represent being pulled into/torn apart by the warp rifts generated).

That is the most frustrating thing about the state of the WK right now. Both you and Imateria have just proposed very simple, logical changes that could easily make the WK very playable.
But GW won't make these changes at all because of the reputation WKs had in 7th.

-

 Galef wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Wraithknights are in a very difficult place, both in durability and firepower. It wouldn’t be unreasonable to give them a free spirit stones-esque buff, which there is precedent for including on a datasheet (Hemlocks). Drop the base cost by about 75, double the shots on the suncannon, and improve to the wraithcannons by giving them additional mortal wounds on hits (to represent being pulled into/torn apart by the warp rifts generated).

That is the most frustrating thing about the state of the WK right now. Both you and Imateria have just proposed very simple, logical changes that could easily make the WK very playable.
But GW won't make these changes at all because of the reputation WKs had in 7th.

-

I don't know. Look at Riptides, in the index they sucked but the Codex fixed them.

 Galas wrote:
I don't know. Look at Riptides, in the index they sucked but the Codex fixed them.

And the Eldar Codex did nothing to help the WK, so what is your point? The only potential upcoming change for the WK would be the next Chapter Approved, which will only address points cost, if anything.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I don't know. Look at Riptides, in the index they sucked but the Codex fixed them.

And the Eldar Codex did nothing to help the WK, so what is your point? The only potential upcoming change for the WK would be the next Chapter Approved, which will only address points cost, if anything.

-

Your point was that the WK will not get fixed because it was hated from 7th. I give you an example of something equally hated that started the edition as a crappy option that was fixed later on. CA can absolutely change rules, not only point costs.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Stompas and Wraithknights are absolute, unfiltered, 100% organic, GMO free, locally sourced, allergy free, triple filtered garbage.

I think that metaphor may have got away from you at about the point they were both unfiltered and triple filtered...

StrayIight wrote:
As is so often the case, the issue is points.

Many things, especially in the case of Knights and their equivalents just cost too much for what you're really getting on the table. I think so much could be solved with a sensible and consistent points allocation system at design level, and I'm pretty convinced no such thing exists.

Even the most powerful and useful of units can generally be made really pretty sensible if it's costed correctly.

They don’t have a point allocation system for stats and abilities; they go with “this feels about right”.

It’s bullfeth, but it is what it is - they confirmed it on a stream somewhere.

WK should have 28 wounds now when it's the thing and in comparison. It's a massive model. And better armament, naturally.

fe40k wrote:

StrayIight wrote:
As is so often the case, the issue is points.

Many things, especially in the case of Knights and their equivalents just cost too much for what you're really getting on the table. I think so much could be solved with a sensible and consistent points allocation system at design level, and I'm pretty convinced no such thing exists.

Even the most powerful and useful of units can generally be made really pretty sensible if it's costed correctly.

They don’t have a point allocation system for stats and abilities; they go with “this feels about right”.

It’s bullfeth, but it is what it is - they confirmed it on a stream somewhere.

Yep - which is precisely my point. One is needed.

If GW won't create one, at some point I suspect the competitive community will have to, at least if they don't wish to keep the idea of competitive 40K being a running gag.

Renegade knights point values being modified for common chassis/wargear seems like a no brainer, but I’m not holding my breath.

StrayIight wrote:

fe40k wrote:

StrayIight wrote:
As is so often the case, the issue is points.

Many things, especially in the case of Knights and their equivalents just cost too much for what you're really getting on the table. I think so much could be solved with a sensible and consistent points allocation system at design level, and I'm pretty convinced no such thing exists.

Even the most powerful and useful of units can generally be made really pretty sensible if it's costed correctly.

They don’t have a point allocation system for stats and abilities; they go with “this feels about right”.

It’s bullfeth, but it is what it is - they confirmed it on a stream somewhere.

Yep - which is precisely my point. One is needed.

If GW won't create one, at some point I suspect the competitive community will have to, at least if they don't wish to keep the idea of competitive 40K being a running gag.

That's something I don't get. I mean, I have a decent stats background and it wouldn't be hard to generate a number to represent average cost/damage/durability/buffs value and adjust units to closely match it. With how homogenized 8th is, it's simpler than ever it certainly couldn't hurt.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

StrayIight wrote:

fe40k wrote:

StrayIight wrote:
As is so often the case, the issue is points.

Many things, especially in the case of Knights and their equivalents just cost too much for what you're really getting on the table. I think so much could be solved with a sensible and consistent points allocation system at design level, and I'm pretty convinced no such thing exists.

Even the most powerful and useful of units can generally be made really pretty sensible if it's costed correctly.

They don’t have a point allocation system for stats and abilities; they go with “this feels about right”.

It’s bullfeth, but it is what it is - they confirmed it on a stream somewhere.

Yep - which is precisely my point. One is needed.

If GW won't create one, at some point I suspect the competitive community will have to, at least if they don't wish to keep the idea of competitive 40K being a running gag.

That's something I don't get. I mean, I have a decent stats background and it wouldn't be hard to generate a number to represent average cost/damage/durability/buffs value and adjust units to closely match it. With how homogenized 8th is, it's simpler than ever it certainly couldn't hurt.

Yeah, it does boggle the mind a bit that this situation exists doesn't it? I wouldn't know how to create a system like that personally, but it's common sense to see that you need something in place like that... They're damaging their reputation and their relationship with the community every time they use a dart board to assign point values to something.

Wraightknights should be APPROPRIATELY fearsome. Not what they are now. Get in line behind 80% of marine units, lol.

Orks have a chance for their new codex. But WK strangely only got a drop in points at about 10-20 ppm.

The biggest thing about WK is that it always had to choose between guns and invulnerable save (that makes it even more expensive). Now that Suncannon is just laughably bad, it's even more pronounced.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

StrayIight wrote:

fe40k wrote:

StrayIight wrote:
As is so often the case, the issue is points.

Many things, especially in the case of Knights and their equivalents just cost too much for what you're really getting on the table. I think so much could be solved with a sensible and consistent points allocation system at design level, and I'm pretty convinced no such thing exists.

Even the most powerful and useful of units can generally be made really pretty sensible if it's costed correctly.

They don’t have a point allocation system for stats and abilities; they go with “this feels about right”.

It’s bullfeth, but it is what it is - they confirmed it on a stream somewhere.

Yep - which is precisely my point. One is needed.

If GW won't create one, at some point I suspect the competitive community will have to, at least if they don't wish to keep the idea of competitive 40K being a running gag.

That's something I don't get. I mean, I have a decent stats background and it wouldn't be hard to generate a number to represent average cost/damage/durability/buffs value and adjust units to closely match it. With how homogenized 8th is, it's simpler than ever it certainly couldn't hurt.

Whilst it would certainly be useful for raw stats, there's a whole raft of abilites in game that can't remotely be pointed out this way due to situational value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Frankly it needs a 5++ as standard with the Scattershield boosting that to a 4++, the Heavy Wraithcannons getting a flat damage 6 (Distort weapons are supposed to be the most powerful weapons in the game, yet currently the Heavy Wraitcannon is only slightly more effective than a twin Lascannon) and the Suncannon a massive reduction in points. We may well be in the realm of usability then.

Those are some of the best suggestions for the WK I have seen. Not sure about the flat 6 damage for the HWC though. That seems a bit too reliable. I'd rather they get an extra shot, or 2d6 damage on a wound roll of 6. Something like that.
But the easiest change would be to just drop it by 100pts. Done

-

I like it reliable, I also don't think it should have too many shots as it's a single barrel weapon that never used templates and works solely by ripping a whole into the fabric of the universe. Given that Craftworlds have no other viable options for anti super heavy firepower except for maybe the Scorpion, I'd say it was fine. I'm aslo very much of the opinion that models like this should be 500 odd points, but should very much be worth that points investment for the role they are designed for.

tneva82 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I think the biggest change is applying what they tried with custodes to their weapons: Expensive models now get guns with tons of shots and damage so they cause the similar damage as the same amount of points spent on cheaper models - unlike nauts or the stompa who are outgunned by any of the larger dreads (Contemptor/Redemptor).

No joke, my contemptor dread 1 shot a Morkanaut of the feild in 1 turn by melting him first and charging him for like 10 damage or something. I felt bad... especially because it was my models I let my mate borrow and knew tye points costs like the back of my hand. XD

Sorry but THAT I have hard time believing. I can believe he dented it hard(he would dent a knight hard) with some lucky dice rolls but even maximum damage for contemptator is 4 attacks each 3 damage max=12 and then melta=6 and that's 18 total which is morkanaut level. Average result is 7.43 wounds so not even putting gorkanaut on next damage chart. Morkanaut bit less due to inv to the melta shot.

Maybe I just got super lucky or did 1 ir two wounds in some other way. I know in cc I got the full 12 damage though.

The short answer is 'yes'. The long answer is 'yeeeesssss'. Orkanauts, the Stompa and Wraithknight all scream underpowered when compared to the IK. I wouldn't mind if IK were more powerful but actually restricted to units in their codex, but since they can join at will the great Imperial soup (effectively rendering any concerns around an elite, high wound, low model count army moot) they need to be balanced against every other equivalent unit in the game. I don't currently see this happening and it's broken.