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 Ouze wrote:

xraytango wrote:
There is no such thing as "rape culture". Literally, there is no one saying that rape is a good thing and advocating it.

The thing you describe in sentence one, and the thing you describe in sentence two are not the same thing. I also would agree that rape culture doesn't exist if we invent a definition for it in which it means something else.

Also there is currently someone running for political office in the USA who does advocate rape.

Not every customer is part of your customer base. Your customer base is a more focused group. They buy the product for their own use, especially (in this context) for organized marketing events like tournaments.

But as to the EA thing we can say customer, customer base, or community. In that example, the customer base/community loudly complained about the product marketed to them, specifically about the way content worked. The goal was to change that. In the Tentacle Bento example, someone with no interest in or knowledge of the game beyond their interpretation of the game as dangerous and immoral appeared to torpedo the lifeline the product had to its actual customer base/community.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Backfire: good point, the moral police may change from far right to far left but the phenomenon remains

Stuebi: excellent post, I totally agree

Oh god the historical feminism thing is even worse than I imagined.

For $200,000 people got five, 5 minute long videos (one is actually just over 3 minutes) presented with some very basic animation.

The WORST thing about this is that Peregrine will defend this. People have made hugely successful feature films on a fraction of that.

 kestral wrote:
Not being terribly up on "Gamergate" or this Anita Sarkosian person, I googled "Worst Anita S quotes" to see just how bad she was After all, if you want to know the worst about someone, you can be sure their enemies will have the dirt on them. This was the first result:

https://ageofshitlords.com/the-10-dumbest-things-anita-sarkeesian-has-said

Uhh - well, I wasn't that impressed by the outrage. I didn't see her saying "All gamers are sexist" or "All men Suck". While I can see why some of those quotes might trigger a person who is big into men's rights, they are overall pretty minimal. If they're freaking you out, you must have a much tamer female friends on facebook than I do.

The whole thing was always blown completely out of proportion. The irony that she would'nt ever have gotten traction if people didnt get so stark raving mad about her, was pointed out countless times.

Your example is actually pretty neat, I've seen numerous FB-Posts that were about ten times as insulting/generalizing as anything Anita has ever written, said, or done.

Malus: if you mean the guy in VA, yeah we have a low threshold as to who can run (guy would not be able to run barring Democrat governor changing law so felons can) - but probably a subject best left to US Politics

Stuebi: when people don't feel strongly or feel strongly positive the Warp (i.e., the internet) is placid - only strong negativity stirs the ethereal waves lol

 Sim-Life wrote:
The WORST thing about this is that Peregrine will defend this.

Welcome to the free market. The people giving that money knew exactly what they were getting, and exactly how weak of a guarantee of quality products that Kickstarter offers. We should be praising Anita Sarkeesian for a successful business venture, identifying a target market and extracting as much money as possible from it. She's hardly the first business to make a ton of money off selling low-quality products to people who over-pay for them.

Now, would I personally give her money? no. Her product isn't worth anything to me, so I'm not buying.

Well on that we can agree!

Can't even summon any sort of outrage for the KS she started. Not after all the Early-Access and other Kickstarter Projects I've seen, that sometimes devoured millions and turned them into absolutely bloody nothing.

As sad as it is: A bunch of 5 minute videos for 200'000 Bucks is actually ahead of the curve in a lot of KS-cases. And part of me is tempted to agree with peregrine, this is probably more the fault of those idiots that still pay for moronities like this.

 Manchu wrote:
Not every customer is part of your customer base. Your customer base is a more focused group. They buy the product for their own use, especially (in this context) for organized marketing events like tournaments.

So now you're at the point of nitpicking terms. Can you at least admit that the use of "community" is simply a relevant description of the group of people in question, even if it is not the specific term that you would consider most perfect, and not some kind of coded message as you initially claimed?

In that example, the customer base/community loudly complained about the product marketed to them, specifically about the way content worked.

This is a huge assumption to make. I'm sure some actual customers were involved, but can you seriously argue that it didn't draw in people who were not customers but object to loot crates on principle? Or who hate EA and were eager to score a win against them, even if it didn't involve a game they had any interest in playing?

And in either case your claim was that "extortion" tactics were wrong. Now you're moving the goalposts to "extortion tactics are wrong, unless you're a customer in which case it's ok".

Stuebi wrote:

 kestral wrote:
Not being terribly up on "Gamergate" or this Anita Sarkosian person, I googled "Worst Anita S quotes" to see just how bad she was After all, if you want to know the worst about someone, you can be sure their enemies will have the dirt on them. This was the first result:

https://ageofshitlords.com/the-10-dumbest-things-anita-sarkeesian-has-said

Uhh - well, I wasn't that impressed by the outrage. I didn't see her saying "All gamers are sexist" or "All men Suck". While I can see why some of those quotes might trigger a person who is big into men's rights, they are overall pretty minimal. If they're freaking you out, you must have a much tamer female friends on facebook than I do.

The whole thing was always blown completely out of proportion. The irony that she would'nt ever have gotten traction if people didnt get so stark raving mad about her, was pointed out countless times.

Your example is actually pretty neat, I've seen numerous FB-Posts that were about ten times as insulting/generalizing as anything Anita has ever written, said, or done.

But how many of those FB posts have a cabal of journalists to back them up or talk at the UN or get hired to talk to game devs.

Also that "FACT: I am an expert on women in video games." picture is hilarious. It says a lot about how she views herself.

Peregrine, we've talked about this for pages on end and either you're pretending not to understand or you can't and in either case I don't much care anymore.

 Manchu wrote:
Peregrine, we've talked about this for pages on end and either you're pretending not to understand or you can't and in either case I don't much care anymore.

Oh, I understand very well. I'm just trying to get you to admit in quotable form that the difference between using "extortion" tactics against EA over loot crates and using "extortion" tactics against bikini outfits is that you (and a lot of other people) feel that loot crates are a bad thing, but don't feel the same way about the bikini outfits. It's the exact same tactic being used in both cases, the only difference is the particular game element being targeted.

 Manchu wrote:
Just for reference, in FFG's relaunch the same powerful female characters are still around and at least one important, powerful character was genderswapped to be female, without changing the character's love interest (making this character a woman sexually attracted to another woman). No complaints on my part, she (Doji Hotaru) is one of my favorite characters in new L5R (and I'm a Lion btw).

Oh, wow. Didn't even know of the reboot.
So what about Dairu?

Backfire, barring magic, I guess he will not exist. Or if he does, he will have different parents.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Stuebi wrote:

 kestral wrote:
Not being terribly up on "Gamergate" or this Anita Sarkosian person, I googled "Worst Anita S quotes" to see just how bad she was After all, if you want to know the worst about someone, you can be sure their enemies will have the dirt on them. This was the first result:

https://ageofshitlords.com/the-10-dumbest-things-anita-sarkeesian-has-said

Uhh - well, I wasn't that impressed by the outrage. I didn't see her saying "All gamers are sexist" or "All men Suck". While I can see why some of those quotes might trigger a person who is big into men's rights, they are overall pretty minimal. If they're freaking you out, you must have a much tamer female friends on facebook than I do.

The whole thing was always blown completely out of proportion. The irony that she would'nt ever have gotten traction if people didnt get so stark raving mad about her, was pointed out countless times.

Your example is actually pretty neat, I've seen numerous FB-Posts that were about ten times as insulting/generalizing as anything Anita has ever written, said, or done.

But how many of those FB posts have a cabal of journalists to back them up or talk at the UN or get hired to talk to game devs.

Also that "FACT: I am an expert on women in video games." picture is hilarious. It says a lot about how she views herself.

You're not wrong, but her success came entirely from riding the wave of negativity that was flooded at her back when she made her trope-videos. She is a living, breathing example of "Don't feed the Troll".

I'm not trying to say that she is worth listening to, god know. It's a waste of time and braincells, there are plenty of smarter people that talked in more creative ways about the same subjects. But I'm not sure wether I wouldnt have taken advantage if I ended up in the same situation.

If so many idiots were willing to give me attention, and more importantly MONEY, I'd be hard pressed not to try to profit off of it.

Stuebi wrote:

 kestral wrote:
Not being terribly up on "Gamergate" or this Anita Sarkosian person, I googled "Worst Anita S quotes" to see just how bad she was After all, if you want to know the worst about someone, you can be sure their enemies will have the dirt on them. This was the first result:

https://ageofshitlords.com/the-10-dumbest-things-anita-sarkeesian-has-said

Uhh - well, I wasn't that impressed by the outrage. I didn't see her saying "All gamers are sexist" or "All men Suck". While I can see why some of those quotes might trigger a person who is big into men's rights, they are overall pretty minimal. If they're freaking you out, you must have a much tamer female friends on facebook than I do.

The whole thing was always blown completely out of proportion. The irony that she would'nt ever have gotten traction if people didnt get so stark raving mad about her, was pointed out countless times.

Your example is actually pretty neat, I've seen numerous FB-Posts that were about ten times as insulting/generalizing as anything Anita has ever written, said, or done.

I'd also point out that number 8 is wrong. Her tweets don't say that the police have made arrests or tracked the people harassing her. All she says is that she is contacting the authorities, then minutes later says she is safe, the authorities have been contacted and that she is staying with friends.

I didnt even click the link. I would not be surprised if one of the 10 points is that Anita once tried to summon Femanyothep, the Dark God of Women's rights, to kill every male gamer on the planet.

The woman is a cartoon-caricature at this point.

 Manchu wrote:
Backfire, barring magic, I guess he will not exist. Or if he does, he will have different parents.

Oh, too bad. He was major aspect of the story.

Can't say I fault FFG for rebooting the lore as such, it had become a mess. If anything, making the Clan Wars lore a bit less Kachiko-centric is a boon.
But I digress, sorry for the interruption. Everyone continue to hurl insults.

Why are people seriously considering what AgeoftheShitlords post. Their agenda is so blantant they might as well hit you in the face with a baseball bat with the words "evul feminiztz everywhere!" On it.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Why are people seriously considering what AgeoftheShitlords post.

Nobody is doing that.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Why are people seriously considering what AgeoftheShitlords post.

Nobody is doing that.

I must have missed not seeing the link posted and a discussion on the contents, my bad!

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Why are people seriously considering what AgeoftheShitlords post.

Nobody is doing that.

I must have missed not seeing the link posted and a discussion on the contents, my bad!

No, you just missed the context of the link and what the posts were actually saying about said link.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Why are people seriously considering what AgeoftheShitlords post.

Nobody is doing that.

I must have missed not seeing the link posted and a discussion on the contents, my bad!

Not taking it seriously, just pointing out that even when they are criticising her tweets, and have the tweets right there on their page, they still manage to misrepresent what it is that she actually said.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Why are people seriously considering what AgeoftheShitlords post.

Nobody is doing that.

I must have missed not seeing the link posted and a discussion on the contents, my bad!

Not taking it seriously, just pointing out that even when they are criticising her tweets, and have the tweets right there on their page, they still manage to misrepresent what it is that she actually said.

That was just you though. Bringing up pages like that to show what a horrible person she is and accuse her of cherrypicking (note this in in general about people arguing against her) is frankly ironic considering the source used.

Either side has a clear interest in no nuance on Sarkeesian as a person.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Why are people seriously considering what AgeoftheShitlords post.

Nobody is doing that.

I must have missed not seeing the link posted and a discussion on the contents, my bad!

Not taking it seriously, just pointing out that even when they are criticising her tweets, and have the tweets right there on their page, they still manage to misrepresent what it is that she actually said.

That was just you though. Bringing up pages like that to show what a horrible person she is and accuse her of cherrypicking (note this in in general about people arguing against her) is frankly ironic considering the source used.

Either side has a clear interest in no nuance on Sarkeesian as a person.

Again, go reread the post that posted the link because I don't think you understood why it was used. Irony thy name is Dakka.

I saw why it was used. But even if its the enemy its still presenting her as badly as possible without nuance and a sprinkle of lies. You can't just go well I will take a look at what her opponents say and it doesn't look that bad. Its still making it out to be worse than it actually is. Should I say casually discussing then? Was that the issue?

I will make it more clear, I don't think we should spend time even considering what comes out of that website as they clearly have an agenda to push and no inclination for even trying to be objective.

She's only relevant and famous because people hate her.
People hate her because she lies and distorts the truth.
She wants people to hate her because that brings media attention and sympathy.
Media attention and sympathy attracts donations and public speaking opportunities.
She's the Kim Kardashian of gaming.

I'd much rather listen to Liana Kerzner (who I've been subscribed to on Youtube since Gamergate) because I perceive her to be much more honest and knowledgeable on gaming in general.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I saw why it was used. But even if its the enemy its still presenting her as badly as possible without nuance and a sprinkle of lies. You can't just go well I will take a look at what her opponents say and it doesn't look that bad. Its still making it out to be worse than it actually is. Should I say casually discussing then? Was that the issue?

I will make it more clear, I don't think we should spend time even considering what comes out of that website as they clearly have an agenda to push and no inclination for even trying to be objective.

But this whole thing is about bias. r/GamerGhazi and the Gamergate Wiki are both incredibly biased sources but you didn't raise a stink about them being used. I also think someone had a go at /tg/ at one point and that's probably one of the most liberal boards on 4chan.

Anita very clearly is pushing an agenda but you agree with it so that's okay? This AGAIN is exactly why people don't like Anita. She has never (to my knowledge) actually defended her position in an actual discussion because she doesn't want to hear dissenting opinions. Just like you want to shut down discussion of AgeofGaklords or whatever. This is what fuels anger in the community because the portion of the community that LIKES booby sliders and swimsuits feels like they're being attacked and they aren't given a voice to defend themselves with and when they DO try to make themselves heard they get attacked with further accusations of being sexist and misogynist.

By silencing your opponents all you do is reaffirm their views, force them into extreme positions and drive them underground. When you close a bunch of nazis in a box with each other and put a blanket over it when you lift the cover they're not going to have suddenly changed their minds.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I saw why it was used. But even if its the enemy its still presenting her as badly as possible without nuance and a sprinkle of lies. You can't just go well I will take a look at what her opponents say and it doesn't look that bad. Its still making it out to be worse than it actually is. Should I say casually discussing then? Was that the issue?

I will make it more clear, I don't think we should spend time even considering what comes out of that website as they clearly have an agenda to push and no inclination for even trying to be objective.

But this whole thing is about bias. r/GamerGhazi and the Gamergate Wiki are both incredibly biased sources but you didn't raise a stink about them being used. I also think someone had a go at /tg/ at one point and that's probably one of the most liberal boards on 4chan.

Anita very clearly is pushing an agenda but you agree with it so that's okay? This AGAIN is exactly why people don't like Anita. She has never (to my knowledge) actually defended her position in an actual discussion because she doesn't want to hear dissenting opinions. Just like you want to shut down discussion of AgeofGaklords or whatever. This is what fuels anger in the community because the portion of the community that LIKES booby sliders and swimsuits feels like they're being attacked and they aren't given a voice to defend themselves with and when they DO try to make themselves heard they get attacked with further accusations of being sexist and misogynist.

By silencing your opponents all you do is reaffirm their views, force them into extreme positions and drive them underground. When you close a bunch of nazis in a box with each other and put a blanket over it when you lift the cover they're not going to have suddenly changed their minds.

I didn't notice that they were used and that is on me, the thread is moving quite fast at times. But yes both of those have the same issues. People raise all kinds of stinkers from the factual feminist to the reddit threads.

And Anita is pushing an agenda, I never denied that. I have even said that viewing her material its very basic and she is a terrible advocate for the things she tries to accomplish. She is a women pushing an opinion being met with an incredible amount of hate. I'm not going to bring up the lords stuff to show Sarkeesian is bad anymore then I'm going to bring up Sarkeesian to show why everyone here is terrible. The issue is that when the 'community' defends itself, normal people are actually on the same side as the mysogynists in the hobby defending it, whether the normal element likes it or not. This is why arguments of Sarkeesian have mainstream traction, the mysogynists do exist in the hobby and we should drive them out. The bile from the bad eggs is what gives people like her traction in the first place.

I'm not trying to silence anyone, I say let them rant and rave in their little internet corner. They aren't going to change their views, pushing them out of the hobby is what actually accomplishes defending it. Not having them stay in the opinion loop as somehow relevant.

 Sim-Life wrote:
This is what fuels anger in the community because the portion of the community that LIKES booby sliders and swimsuits feels like they're being attacked and they aren't given a voice to defend themselves with and when they DO try to make themselves heard they get attacked with further accusations of being sexist and misogynist.

I'm not really seeing the problem here. It's sexist garbage, and the people who like it should feel bad about it. If they don't want to be accused of sexism then perhaps they shouldn't be guilty of it?

When you close a bunch of nazis in a box with each other and put a blanket over it when you lift the cover they're not going to have suddenly changed their minds.

This is why you never open the box of Nazis. Lock the box, throw away the key, throw the box to the bottom of the ocean.