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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Captain America is being written by a man that called the FDNY responders at 9/11 inhuman monsters and mocked their 'machismo'.

{citation needed}

I'm looking for a quote of this and finding nothing.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Captain America is being written by a man that called the FDNY responders at 9/11 inhuman monsters and mocked their 'machismo'.

{citation needed}

I'm looking for a quote of this and finding nothing.

I thought he posted that to twitter. I've seen it mentioned in a video on Youtube but can't recall who made the video. If I could remember the name of the writer It would be easy to find.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Iirc Topaxygouroun said he lives in the Netherlands, but he is Greek? My country (NL) has a yearly tradition for a children's party where white Dutch people put on black face, paint their lips bright red and put on a curly black wig to play the dumb helpers of our version of santa. Meanwhile the majority insists that this is no way has any racist undertones. Make of that what you will.

Aaah good old zwarte piet. Well I am not Dutch, I only live here so I would not persume to judge the Dutch because I lack a lot of the background data. If however I had to choose between racism including real people and racism due to fictional characters then I would choose to live in the Netherlands rather than in Greece I suppose. I prefer to see how everyday life unfolds in the Netherlands. So far (3 years here) I have not witnessed any cases where people of color are getting discriminated as a result of the Swarte Piet custom or otherwise.

I do have a serious problem about SinterKlaas though: After 6th of December, the peppernotten availability stops. What in the heck is this? It's like Santa coming and taking the gifts away! Get your shirt together, Netherlands!

I think the debate is if a black stereotypical caricature is racist because of what it depicts. It is pretty bad though, amazingly cringy. But as its a children's holiday adults don't really discriminate against each other, its mainly children being affected by it. There certainly is discrimination here, its less obvious, but bringing up the topic gets you no less hatemail. Yesterday I even saw people protesting a charity that tries to prevent child labor abroad because "they were taking their jobs away". Dutch people never fail to surprise me. Its a long way to go in some aspects, just giving an example to others because of the outside of the US perspective.

And thats your problem? Not that they start selling the freaking things in like august? I mean its one day a year and we have to build up to it for three months, three months! Its anarchy!

Do the kids actually know what they're caricaturising? Do they have context? Do the parents dress them up and say "Now you look like an African person" or do the kids just think that's how Santa's helpers look? I remember when I was younger I had no idea that the gollywog on my marmalade was supposed to be a black person. I thought it was just a mascot.

Kids don't get dressed up as Zwawrte Piet. Adults do and they bring gifts to the children. Zwarte Piet is the Dutch version of the Santa's elves in a sense. I don't think the kids think "here's my african bringing my my PS4". I think they are more like the mascot analogy.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
The people that are behind these comics have long been gatekeepers in the industry.

So releasing a new product line is somehow "gatekeeping"? You complain when they change stuff, you complain when they release new stuff, it's clear that the only acceptable answer for you is one in which left-wing politics is erased from existence.

Comic shops are closing all over and it's because no one wants to buy this garbage.

Alternatively, comic shops are closing all over because retail in general is a dying business model and you can buy comics online without the hassle of going to a retail store. Why would you expect comic shops to survive in a world where bookstores in general are nearly dead outside of a large chain or two?

 warhead01 wrote:
I thought he posted that to twitter. I've seen it mentioned in a video on Youtube but can't recall who made the video.

I got you, fam.

http://boundingintocomics.com/2018/02/28/marvel-makes-major-misstep-ta-nehisis-coates-new-captain-america-writer/




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Do the kids actually know what they're caricaturising? Do they have context? Do the parents dress them up and say "Now you look like an African person" or do the kids just think that's how Santa's helpers look? I remember when I was younger I had no idea that the gollywog on my marmalade was supposed to be a black person. I thought it was just a mascot.

Different but similar: I used to think the Confederate flag just meant that the person really liked Dukes of Hazzard.

topaxygouroun i wrote:


I am always waiting 7th in the morning in front of AH to buy 10-15 kilos of peppernotten on the discount price. I have a problem :(

Zwarte piet is really really cringy indeed. On the other hand for some reason Dutch people tend to dress carnival-like about 10 times more often than any other people I have met. bachelor party? Here's princess dresses or giant dick costumes. PSV won the Eredivisie? Look at me being dressed like a hamburger. Every weekend there's someone on the streets dressed up. Madness, madness I tell you.

Nah plenty of people do that, those things keep forever as well so you can stock up for the year.

As for dressing up, yeah people tend to find any excuse to get drunk and look silly. Mostly the drunk part haha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Iirc Topaxygouroun said he lives in the Netherlands, but he is Greek? My country (NL) has a yearly tradition for a children's party where white Dutch people put on black face, paint their lips bright red and put on a curly black wig to play the dumb helpers of our version of santa. Meanwhile the majority insists that this is no way has any racist undertones. Make of that what you will.

Aaah good old zwarte piet. Well I am not Dutch, I only live here so I would not persume to judge the Dutch because I lack a lot of the background data. If however I had to choose between racism including real people and racism due to fictional characters then I would choose to live in the Netherlands rather than in Greece I suppose. I prefer to see how everyday life unfolds in the Netherlands. So far (3 years here) I have not witnessed any cases where people of color are getting discriminated as a result of the Swarte Piet custom or otherwise.

I do have a serious problem about SinterKlaas though: After 6th of December, the peppernotten availability stops. What in the heck is this? It's like Santa coming and taking the gifts away! Get your shirt together, Netherlands!

I think the debate is if a black stereotypical caricature is racist because of what it depicts. It is pretty bad though, amazingly cringy. But as its a children's holiday adults don't really discriminate against each other, its mainly children being affected by it. There certainly is discrimination here, its less obvious, but bringing up the topic gets you no less hatemail. Yesterday I even saw people protesting a charity that tries to prevent child labor abroad because "they were taking their jobs away". Dutch people never fail to surprise me. Its a long way to go in some aspects, just giving an example to others because of the outside of the US perspective.

And thats your problem? Not that they start selling the freaking things in like august? I mean its one day a year and we have to build up to it for three months, three months! Its anarchy!

Do the kids actually know what they're caricaturising? Do they have context? Do the parents dress them up and say "Now you look like an African person" or do the kids just think that's how Santa's helpers look? I remember when I was younger I had no idea that the gollywog on my marmalade was supposed to be a black person. I thought it was just a mascot.

Its supposed to be a mascot/little hekper, but what originally started the modern tradition was a book that made it just a little boy that looked North African. Somewhere along the line that turned into black shoepolish, red lipstick, fake golden earrings and curly black wigs.

As for the kids, no they don't get dressed up, but children of African descent get bullied because of it. Considering we have quite a decent sized African descendent minority due to our colonial past its a bit of a sore subject. You think the Sarkeesian thing is bad, you haven't seen nothing yet when it comes to violent emotional outbursts and threats...

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
I thought he posted that to twitter. I've seen it mentioned in a video on Youtube but can't recall who made the video.

I got you, fam.

http://boundingintocomics.com/2018/02/28/marvel-makes-major-misstep-ta-nehisis-coates-new-captain-america-writer/

.

So if we ignore the context of the wider work (which was nominated for a Pulitzer) and cut out a single sentence quoted in a conservatives review of the book and use the same interpretation as that review (which is not the only interpretation, especially when you consider the context in which such a sentence appears) then he can be painted as hating the police and firefighters on 9/11.

Of course that doesn't take into account the wider themes of the work, such as the effect that interactions with authority (be it the police, or schools, or gangs) as a member of a minority group can have on such a persons outlook on those power structures.

His usage of the phrase "They were not human to me. Black, white, or whatever, they were menaces of nature; they were the fire, the comet, the storm, which could — with no justification — shatter my body." was not actually about those specific police and firefighters, but about the authority they represent and the experiences of dealing with that authority when you approach it as a black man. When you have been systemically abused by the members of a group then you will stop seeing people belonging to that group as people, but rather instruments of the power structure. People living in a community in which the police inflict unjustified violence upon them will not see an individual police officer, but rather the physical presence of violence. They will see the gun, the cuffs, the boot, the baton.

Beat me to it. It's an out of context quote that doesn't even say what AD claims it does. It is about fear of the police/firefighters, not hate, and doesn't say anything about the machismo that AD claimed.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
His usage of the phrase "They were not human to me. Black, white, or whatever, they were menaces of nature; they were the fire, the comet, the storm, which could — with no justification — shatter my body." was not actually about those specific police and firefighters, but about the authority they represent and the experiences of dealing with that authority when you approach it as a black man.

9/11 firefighters.

Yeah, sorry. He's a piece of garbage and a racist that has no business writing Captain America. Additionally, he sides with domestic terrorists like Anitfa. But hey, I'm not the target audience. I don't like it, I don't buy it- I just watch their little circle-jerk burn and mock them at every opportunity.

Sympathize if you want. I don't admire the 'wider works' of David Duke or Richard Spencer, I'm not about to start with a different shade of bigot.

(EDIT: You can keep replying if you like, Peregrine- all I see is 'ignored post by Peregrine'. So feel free to throw your tantrums. This forum has been considerably more interesting with you silenced).

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
He's a piece of garbage and a racist that has no business writing Captain America.

Yeah, definitely a racist because of a quote where he says that black and white firefighters were equal. Do you actually believe the things you post?

Additionally, he sides with domestic terrorists like Anitfa.

You mean domestic heroes doing god's work in fighting Nazis, something Captain America would approve of entirely.



An inspiration to us all.

I don't admire the 'wider works' of David Duke or Richard Spencer, I'm not about to start with a different shade of bigot.

Are you ing serious?

Never understood why USAians are so quick to slap the hero badge on people for doing their jobs. What's different in a 9/11 firefighter compared to a forest fire firefighter?

I mean, thank Tzeentch that the public servicemen were there to help save lives of course. I just don't get the hero thing.

Oh and the dude is stupid, regardless of what he meant or intended. Pretty sure he will be calling the fire department if his gak is on fire. Or will he stay put in fear of "the menaces of nature"? Or will he refuse the help if white firefighters come to save his ass?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
You mean domestic heroes doing god's work in fighting Nazis, something Captain America would approve of entirely.

An inspiration to us all.

Not entirely sure which god you are trying to put in the discussion, but the widespread American one has made it pretty clear that killing people is a big no no.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Never understood why USAians are so quick to slap the hero badge on people for doing their jobs. What's different in a 9/11 firefighter compared to a forest fire firefighter?

I mean, thank Tzeentch that the public servicemen were there to help save lives of course. I just don't get the hero thing.

Oh and the dude is stupid, regardless of what he meant or intended. Pretty sure he will be calling the fire department if his gak is on fire. Or will he stay put in fear of "the menaces of nature"? Or will he refuse the help if white firefighters come to save his ass?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
You mean domestic heroes doing god's work in fighting Nazis, something Captain America would approve of entirely.

An inspiration to us all.

Not entirely sure which god you are trying to put in the discussion, but the widespread American one has made it pretty clear that killing people is a big no no.

Nothing seperates them, all are heroic deeds, going into a collapsing building to rescue people, hero, running into a burning forest to rescue people, hero, maybe we are a bit simple like that I suppose (not sarcasm)

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Not entirely sure which god you are trying to put in the discussion, but the widespread American one has made it pretty clear that killing people is a big no no.

The more accurate translation of the phrase is thou shalt not murder, it wasn't supposed to apply to legitimate killing like soldiers fighting in a war. The bible is full of justified killing, especially at god's command. And I think we all, regardless of political party, can agree that killing Nazis is a moral virtue and any god that may exist will 100% approve as he sends them to burn in hell forever.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Never understood why USAians are so quick to slap the hero badge on people for doing their jobs. What's different in a 9/11 firefighter compared to a forest fire firefighter?

Well, the attack killed nearly 3000 innocent people and 19 vermin murderers. People are a bit sensitive about the whole thing. It's not like a bunch of trees caught on fire. The firefighters were sifting through the rubble and already in the buildings before they collapsed. Danger level was a bit higher than a forest fire, but I do respect all first responders.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Oh and the dude is stupid, regardless of what he meant or intended. Pretty sure he will be calling the fire department if his gak is on fire. Or will he stay put in fear of "the menaces of nature"?

He's provocative, and that's what Marvel wants to go for. They've been pretty... volatile lately. Not sure what audience they're trying to appeal to, because the sales aren't doing so good. Odd hill for them to die on, but they chose it. Then again, Marvel's always been, IMHO, for younger readers than DC. And DC can still crank out solid stories.

DC wasn't going full REEEEE when some Anti-SJW Youtuber launched his own comic. The funny part is that all these 'pros' at Marvel were constantly screaming, "If you don't like it, don't buy it, and if you think you can do better, go make your own and prove it!" -well, the dude did exactly that and the trash at Marvel immediately started trying to shut down his publisher and have his book banned from stores. The funny part is- his book is 100% apolitical, features a gay guy and a black woman.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
and the trash at Marvel immediately started trying to shut down his publisher and have his book banned from store

{citation needed}

https://www.dailydot.com/parsec/jawbreakers-comic-comicsgate-antarctic/ claims that the author accused Marvel of trying to shut it down, but no proof was ever presented and the publisher who cancelled the comic explicitly stated that Marvel was not involved.

 Peregrine wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Not entirely sure which god you are trying to put in the discussion, but the widespread American one has made it pretty clear that killing people is a big no no.

The more accurate translation of the phrase is thou shalt not murder, it wasn't supposed to apply to legitimate killing like soldiers fighting in a war. The bible is full of justified killing, especially at god's command. And I think we all, regardless of political party, can agree that killing Nazis is a moral virtue and any god that may exist will 100% approve as he sends them to burn in hell forever.

Yeah, no. No F-ing way. In fact in the whole new testament he repeats one and only thing, over and over again and that's "Love your enemies." And I very much disagree with killing Nazis. I disagree with killing anyone You don't solve violence with more violence. All you will manage is to make them martyrs in the eyes of the wannabe Nazis. And then you have more Nazis. You don't cure hate by perpetuating it.

I mean it worked pretty well in WW2, lot less Nazis around nowadays. Eventually they force you to take a choice.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I mean it worked pretty well in WW2, lot less Nazis around nowadays.

Yeah, unless you shift the definition to 'anyone to the right of Bernie'. Which seems to be the case. The word 'Nazi' is kind of pointless. When I hear it, I don't expect to see a Nazi. I just expect to see an upset child that found a Republican.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I mean it worked pretty well in WW2, lot less Nazis around nowadays. Eventually they force you to take a choice.

We are not really discussing murder now, are we?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
In fact in the whole new testament he repeats one and only thing, over and over again and that's "Love your enemies."

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
-Jesus

And I very much disagree with killing Nazis. I disagree with killing anyone You don't solve violence with more violence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II

The Nazi genocide was not stopped by asking them nicely, or by trying to persuade them through conversation. It was stopped by killing Nazis until the Nazis accepted that their choice was either surrender or die. And then once the Nazi army surrendered we executed the people responsible for the genocide.

But if you're such a pacifist why are you a fan of Captain America, a character created specifically to kill Nazis?

To be honest people didn't killed nazis because they where nazis but because they started a war invading poland.

Until that point nobody really cared about what they where doing in his own country. Or, well, some people cared, but nobody tried to go to germany to kill them.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I mean it worked pretty well in WW2, lot less Nazis around nowadays. Eventually they force you to take a choice.

We are not really discussing murder now, are we?

No, its self defense, Nazis work towards the goal of murdering their political enemies and those that don't fit their racial views. Would you have people just stand by and let the 1940's happen again or?

 Peregrine wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
In fact in the whole new testament he repeats one and only thing, over and over again and that's "Love your enemies."

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
-Jesus

And I very much disagree with killing Nazis. I disagree with killing anyone You don't solve violence with more violence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II

The Nazi genocide was not stopped by asking them nicely, or by trying to persuade them through conversation. It was stopped by killing Nazis until the Nazis accepted that their choice was either surrender or die. And then once the Nazi army surrendered we executed the people responsible for the genocide.

But if you're such a pacifist why are you a fan of Captain America, a character created specifically to kill Nazis?

Ok, two answers. First the funny one: Captain America in First avenger:"Do you want to kill Nazis?" - "I don't want to kill anyone. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they are from."

Second the serious one. Do you really compare wartime in 1940 with our society in 2018? In 1940 it was also customary for your beloved women (yay, women!) to not vote or be allowed to work. Do you want to go back to that too or will you only cherrypick specific era morality and ethics?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I mean it worked pretty well in WW2, lot less Nazis around nowadays. Eventually they force you to take a choice.

We are not really discussing murder now, are we?

No, its self defense, Nazis work towards the goal of murdering their political enemies and those that don't fit their racial views. Would you have people just stand by and let the 1940's happen again or?

Have many Nazis tried to kill you? As in, in real, real life 2018? You, personally. Did people with swastikas came to kill you with guns?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Ok, two answers. First the funny one: Captain America in First avenger:"Do you want to kill Nazis?" - "I don't want to kill anyone. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they are from."

You do know that Captain America has been around a lot longer than the recent movie series, right? And that he was created specifically to fight Nazis, as a pro-war political statement?

Second the serious one. Do you really compare wartime in 1940 with our society in 2018? In 1940 it was also customary for your beloved women (yay, women!) to not vote or be allowed to work. Do you want to go back to that too or will you only cherrypick specific era morality and ethics?

Of course I don't want to take everything from the 1940s. But killing Nazis is still a moral virtue, and WWII conclusively disproves your idea that you stop Nazis by talking to them. The Nazi genocide was stopped by killing Nazis, and that is the appropriate solution to anyone who wants to go down that path again. The original Captain America would approve entirely, and then go off to kill more Nazis.

 Galas wrote:
To be honest people didn't killed nazis because they where nazis but because they started a war invading poland.

Until that point nobody really cared about what they where doing in his own country. Or, well, some people cared, but nobody tried to go to germany to kill them.

Meanwhile they still murdered tens of thousands while nobody cared before WW2. Never again is a pretty meaningless phrase in international politics.

This reminds me of this:




Wartime happened in 1940. This was 80 years ago. None of us was there. yes people died. Leave them in their rest, don't bring them into your agendas. 2018 is not 1940. If you let hate flow through you, that's how we will end up in the Dark Side again.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

No, its self defense, Nazis work towards the goal of murdering their political enemies and those that don't fit their racial views. Would you have people just stand by and let the 1940's happen again or?

So, let's apply the same to Communists. They racked up a bigger body count and did the same exact thing.

Oh, wait- maybe we shouldn't just murder people until they actually act on it. Crazy, crazy thought.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Galas wrote:
To be honest people didn't killed nazis because they where nazis but because they started a war invading poland.

Until that point nobody really cared about what they where doing in his own country. Or, well, some people cared, but nobody tried to go to germany to kill them.

Meanwhile they still murdered tens of thousands while nobody cared before WW2. Never again is a pretty meaningless phrase in international politics.

I agree. I was just pointing out that second ward didn's started because of some moral imperative to stop the nazis for doing what they where doing. It was a war started by one country invading other, like many others.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I mean it worked pretty well in WW2, lot less Nazis around nowadays. Eventually they force you to take a choice.

We are not really discussing murder now, are we?

No, its self defense, Nazis work towards the goal of murdering their political enemies and those that don't fit their racial views. Would you have people just stand by and let the 1940's happen again or?

Have many Nazis tried to kill you? As in, in real, real life 2018? You, personally. Did people with swastikas came to kill you with guns?

Are you denying that there are parts of society that still believe in it? You should ask those German police officers who die in the line of duty against people clinging to the laws of the Reich in Germany. Its a dangerous ideology. Once they get into power its open season on a lot of people, at that point they have the right to defend themselves. Nazis have murdered people in recent years. We're not killing them for their beliefs right now are we?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Leave them in their rest, don't bring them into your agendas.

I'll leave them in their rest when people stop parading around with Nazi flags and talking about the need for genocide to create a white nation and how Hitler was a hero. Until then the political statement made by the original Captain America remains true: Nazis are evil, and killing them is a moral virtue.