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Hey guys,

I'm new here, so sorry if this is in the wrong part of the forums or whatever, but I need some advice.

A friend of mine got a new Death Guard army and I've not been able to beat them even once.
I've pretty much tried everything I can think of, from flyers to las-spam to playing half Marines/half Grey Knights to help with their psy-spam.

The biggest issues I got are smites and the insane damage DG armies can take.
My friend tends to roll really well, so his saves and FNPs are insane sometimes.
His Mortarion once took 18 las-cannons to the face and just ignored most of them, just to then charge my dev squads and murder them.

I also just don't have the psy-defence when not playing Grey Knights.
All I got are two librarians and he has all kinds of spells to mortal wound me off the table.


We play 3000 points and he normally plays 40-60 pox walkers, Mortarion (and sometimes an extra demon prince), three squads of plague marines, up to 21 terminators (normal ones and the ones with scythes), three blight-haulers, a sorcerer, Tallyman, Lord of Contagion and Typhus.
They all stay in one big blob, so I can't kill his HQs and he runs his pox-walkers into me, while his terminators teleport right in front of me.
And before I can kill them, the rest of his army reaches me and tables my army.


I used to play fluffy Black Templar lists, now I try it with everything I can think of.
Grey Knights helped with the smites, but they don't have enough dakka or attacks to then deal with his units.
They just get overrun by pox walkers.
His terminators are insane, 4++ saves and 3 damage in close combat?
He kills mine on turn ONE without me even getting an attack through.
When I play enough dakka to kill all his pox-walkers it still takes me 2-3 turns, more than enough for everything else to reach me.
When I spam las-cannons I kill his terminators (and sometimes I don't, because of the saves), but his poxies kill me.
And his rolls...there is just nothing I can do against that.
In our last game he got 6 super-smites and just killed some of my HQs that way.

He used to have issues with flyers, now he plays Mortarion and a winged prince and they hunt them down.
He teleports right in front of my dreads and destroys them with his 8 melta shots, the haulers give him better armor saves, so bolters are pretty much useless.



My current tactic is trying to make him split up.
I bought a bunch of jump-pack venguard squads (thinking about bikes, too) to attack his flanks.
A 10 man squad has 40 attacks, so they kill his screen-units and try to reach his psychers.
Sometimes it works, but most of the time it doesn't.
It's like fighting the tides with that army.

I play two Stormtalons and one Stormraven to shoot him from three directions and attack him with my jump-pack captain and 20 vanguards (claws on the captain, chainswords on the squad), meanwhile four devastator squads (2xall las, 2xall hebo) and some rifle-dreads try to kill as much of his army as possible, before he can reach me.
I use two lieutenants for rerolls, librarians for some smite defense and the rest of the points goes into whatever else I can think of.
Sometimes Reavers to bind something, or hellblasters or some assassins.
I hate spamming units like that, but I've literally lost 29 games in a row and none of them were even close.


Do you have any ideas?

Sorry for my less than perfect english, btw.
It's my second language :/

After the continous nerf in CA and FAQ, Codex Space Marine is no match to a properly prepared Death Guard army. You haven't seen the worst like 54 Nurglings and 6 Nurgle Daemon Princes and 6 Drones. Take it easy, you can only hope for not losing that hard like being beaten 20-0 or almost been tabled and we start from there, find the ways try to mitigate the problems.

Despite being generally bad, there exists certain good ones in Marine Stratagem. Such as Orbital Bombardment, Flakk missile, Hellfire Shell, and (maybe very important for you) Tremor Shell (the TFC stratagem). The first 3 deals MW, which reduce at least one layer of the Death Guard defences. The last one was useless to me because my opponent brings all T6/7 "fly" units or infiltrators. However, your opponent uses Plague Marines and Poxwalkers, so the Tremor Shell is useful to slow at least one big blob down.

All these will cost CP, and marines usually lacks CP compare to other armies even after the FAQ giving battalion 5CPs. Take a small detachment of Ultramarines and make one of the UM character warlord might help, like 3 Librarians Supreme Command Detachment. Of course, a small IG battalion may do the CP generation better, but if you stick to "no soup, Astartes only", then UM maybe the only choice. Or, just switch to Ultramarine and take Guilliman for the additional 3CP and all those "Oh that is too OP" reroll ability, playing marines you need to make sure every shot counts. Despite being 400pts now Big G can fit quite well in 3000pts army. And scratch those "too OP" screams, your opponent is taking Morty, So no pressure for you taking Guilliman and spam fully geared Devastator.

The flanking attacks could work, but suggest choose the flank carefully. Generally speaking, you might want to pop up on the side where his long range shooting guys are placed instead of running into his assault units, no matter those close combat guys are strong or weak. Because by outflanking, you want to engage one portion of his army at a time instead getting attacked by the majority of his army at the same time. By the same logic, you want to kill the fast moving guys first, so the rest of his army might have to come to you piece meal.

That's my 2 cents by now, hope that help a little. Will come back if I pop out more ideas.

Yeah, the only success I've had playing as marines vs deathguard was running a Chronus Predator Castle popping killshot for multiple turns since his list was lacking long ranged firepower.

The game ended with both armies utterly annihilated for the most part, but I was able to force through fairly consistent damage. Downside is predators are relatively squishy.

When you play space marines you have to ask your opponent to tone down their list.

Also, there's a big difference playing against Death Guard at 3000 points versus 2000 points. Mortarion is a lot less lethal when you have to pick what units to take, it sounds like your opponent is taking all the good stuff.

Something occurs to me from reading the OPs description: 18 lascannons on Mortarion. He does have the tools to soak up those kinds of shots, I've gone at him with 22 and he's beat them.

Shoot what you can kill. If those lascannons can be aimed at something less durable, do that instead until you absolutely have to shoot up Mortarion. Also, use screens. At 3k points, you should have a ton of Scouts or IG on the board to make sure your opponent is not coming anywhere near your Dev squads.

I have no experience at 3k games, but here's some thoughts..

Your lucky that there's no bloat-drones or PBC..

If you play all imperium? How about some souping up..

Raven guard aggressors double tapping from the shadows..

Two 10man blobs of dark angels hellblasters around Azrael and a lieutenant (darkshroud even).

Blood angels batallion with 1-2 captain slams.. To hunt big stuff like mortarion.

Indeed I have struggled against DG a lot aswell, but those above have worked well (no experience on the aggressors though, but should clear out any screen).

Thanks, guys, though this all sounds very disheartening :/

I've never been a big fan of soup or spam and my favorite lists have always been fluffy and fun.
Leaving my Templars behind was pretty sad (though it was fun creating my own chapter), but it seems like there ain't no other choice.
I like 8th edition, it made me come back after I sat out 6th and 7th, but stuff like this just frustrates me.
I don't have an issue with losing, but getting crushed over and over, because my codex isn't strong enough is not fun.
Maybe it's time to just make it an "Inquisition" army.
Already play Malleus (GK) and Hereticus (BT) anyway, some Death Watch, Guard and Sisters might be a fun edition.
And who needs CP anyway? :/

Space marines are absolutely trash teir - DG are almost top tier. You will lose practically every game against them.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Also, there's a big difference playing against Death Guard at 3000 points versus 2000 points. Mortarion is a lot less lethal when you have to pick what units to take, it sounds like your opponent is taking all the good stuff.

Something occurs to me from reading the OPs description: 18 lascannons on Mortarion. He does have the tools to soak up those kinds of shots, I've gone at him with 22 and he's beat them.

Shoot what you can kill. If those lascannons can be aimed at something less durable, do that instead until you absolutely have to shoot up Mortarion. Also, use screens. At 3k points, you should have a ton of Scouts or IG on the board to make sure your opponent is not coming anywhere near your Dev squads.

Morty is an odd unit. He has 3 superb keywords, and a toolbox within his own codex. He is awesome at low points, then becomes kinda bad, then becomes insanely good. At say, 1000pt, he would be disgusting, average 1K armies cant kill him. At 2K, he is easy to deal with. The DG player doesn't have the points to keep him alive as well as focus on the objectives. Then you get to 3K and climbing. Suddenly 2-3 points of deathshroud terminators isn't that expensive. Epidemius joins the party, a warptime/diabolic strength CSM sorcerer starts to follow him around. Morty can get something like 7 different buffs between DG, CSM, and Chaos daemons. If he has all of them at once, there is nothing in the game that can stand up against him.
I used him in a 250k game last year (12 hours long, got to turn 4 I think, was crazy) and he wasn't ever scratched by shooting thanks to being able to keep deathshroud next to him.



As for facing DG with UM, what I hate most is Gulliman castles. Not only do they do obscene dmg, but they are also pretty dang boring to face (I swear I face a different castle every 2 weeks). Plus with gulliman next to your preds, devs, or whatever hell you plan to unleash, stuff wont want to run up and punch them. Though watch out for foul blightspawn and plaguecasters, they are my new answer to gulliman. Pile on some mortal wounds and then spray him with sludge.

Hrothgarmr wrote:
Thanks, guys, though this all sounds very disheartening :/

I've never been a big fan of soup or spam and my favorite lists have always been fluffy and fun.
Leaving my Templars behind was pretty sad (though it was fun creating my own chapter), but it seems like there ain't no other choice.
I like 8th edition, it made me come back after I sat out 6th and 7th, but stuff like this just frustrates me.
I don't have an issue with losing, but getting crushed over and over, because my codex isn't strong enough is not fun.
Maybe it's time to just make it an "Inquisition" army.
Already play Malleus (GK) and Hereticus (BT) anyway, some Death Watch, Guard and Sisters might be a fun edition.
And who needs CP anyway? :/

I think one of the strong points for DG is that their resilience protects them from making less than competitive lists and having a bad time. You have to try pretty hard to make a DG list that will not do at least OK.

How do your psykers fare at getting off their powers? If you can Null Zone those Terminators or Mortarion... maybe using the rarely deployed Empyric Channelling Stratagem, you could get a foothold on real damage dealing.

 Insectum7 wrote:
How do your psykers fare at getting off their powers? If you can Null Zone those Terminators or Mortarion... maybe using the rarely deployed Empyric Channelling Stratagem, you could get a foothold on real damage dealing.

Null Zone is 8 to cast. You will be in range to be denied because you have to be standing in the fire to use it. Have to move into suicide range before you know the power is going off and you have about a 50% chance to get your power off with a reroll. Plus you can still be denied. That's a lot of hoops to jump through just to bring them down to FNP only (which they can still make tons of those saves).

Lets keep in mind that most space marine units don't have Invo saves or FNP. The ones that do suck.

The only other suggestions that comes to mind is get yourself some forgeworld "OP filth" aka competitively viable marine units.

 Insectum7 wrote:
How do your psykers fare at getting off their powers? If you can Null Zone those Terminators or Mortarion... maybe using the rarely deployed Empyric Channelling Stratagem, you could get a foothold on real damage dealing.

Pretty solid, mostly.
I always save some CP to get them off and try to keep them save as long as possible.
The issue is that my friend plays more psychers than I do, so he blocks a lot.
I always have to be very careful not to be too close to them and still get his important units in range, which is tough.
Null zone, if it works, can be devastating, but I have yet to get it working.
6 inches is not a lot when his entire army is one big blob.
It means my psycker will be dead the next turn and since I can't be sure it's not blocked...well.
These days I use them to block some smites or this one insane DG spell I always forget the name of.
Mortarion always uses it and if he rolls higher than my toughness I get a mortal wound? Something like that?
He sometimes kills an entire unit with that spell, so I NEED to block it :/

I'll be playing with him again on thursday.

My current list will be something like:

Guilliman
Captain (Jump-pack, Claws, Raven's Fury, Storm of Fire)
Primaris Librarian
Terminator Librarian
4 dev squads (2x all las, 2x 3 hebos/1 rl)
10 Reivers (Carbines)
6 Aggressors (flamers)
Rifle-Dread
Redemptor (Both Gatlings)
2x 7 Vanguards (Jump packs, two chainswords)
2x 3 Inceptors (Bolters)
Stormhawk (Las-talon,Hebos,assault cannon)
Stormtalon (Lascannon, assault cannon)

It will be my first try at a castle (since I tried everything else).
Guilliman stands back with all the shooting, everything with jump-packs in the first row to charge anything that comes close.
The captain/vanguard combo has worked really well for me so far, there are just so many attacks that his units get overwhelmed.
And if he kills them I still get another turn of shooting.
The flyers annoy him whenever they can and keep some of his units out of the fight, because they need to shield his HQs.
Everything he uses to shield his back is something not charging me.

Las-cannons into his tanks/terminators, hebos in everything else, concentrating on one unit at a time.
My friend has one problem: he never knows how to use his Mortarion.
He either stays back with his Shrouds, which makes him useless for most of the game, or he charges me and leaves them behind and gets picked off by las-cannon fire.
And if all else fails I can bind him with Guilliman.
He won't win, but can survive 2 rounds, which buys me time.

The Reivers aren't great, but get some models on the field, and 20 bolters/attacks are alright.
They can bind something, probably walkers.

Depending on the mission and who gets first turn, get the Aggressors on the field with the RG thing, or have them stand back and shield something.
He'll think twice about charging 12 D6 flamers.

How is he getting close to you so fast? Poxes move 4 and even with advance most tables will take 3 turns to get close - they are mainly for obsec, and in a pure DG list morty without warptime - you should be able to put 18 lascannons x2 into him.

DG can be tough but if you splice up your list with some other factions you should easily have the dakka to ground him. In 2k games standard he gets killed turn 1 if he has no miasma, at 3k it should be NP. If he is using the deathshroud they also move (from memory) i think 4-5 inches (5?) so morty will be out of range of bodyguard after turn 1. No deepstrike outside of your deployment till turn 2... Should have at least a full turn blasting him with no BG next to him at all.

Terms in general are consider garbage tier due to the significant number of ways of putting out 2 damage or D3 damage with at least 1 - 2 negative AP.

I'm not saying his list isn't tough but should certainly be beatable, you are probably getting outplayed on the table.

Have you tried some narrative games that are more in your favour?

I play pure BA, so am used to losing, but I'm seriously thinking of getting some allies, I believe deathwatch might help!

orkswubwub wrote:
How is he getting close to you so fast? Poxes move 4 and even with advance most tables will take 3 turns to get close - they are mainly for obsec, and in a pure DG list morty without warptime - you should be able to put 18 lascannons x2 into him.

DG can be tough but if you splice up your list with some other factions you should easily have the dakka to ground him. In 2k games standard he gets killed turn 1 if he has no miasma, at 3k it should be NP. If he is using the deathshroud they also move (from memory) i think 4-5 inches (5?) so morty will be out of range of bodyguard after turn 1. No deepstrike outside of your deployment till turn 2... Should have at least a full turn blasting him with no BG next to him at all.

He uses some HQ (really sorry I don't know all of their names) to advance with 3D6 and depending on the mission he reaches me in round 2-3.
And there are also the teleport strikes, sometimes I have to deal with 5+ units of terminators on turn one (we ignore the FAQ rule).
When I play Grey Knights I do the same thing, of course and when we play GK vs T'au I usually win that way.
But at least GK Terminators are T4 without FNP.
I just don't have the firepower to deal with all of them, especially since he rolls his charges really well.
Most of them hit and then I'm in close-combat with 20 terminators and the game is pretty much over at that point.

Have you tried some narrative games that are more in your favour?

Not yet.
He wants to try that, it just doesn't feel right to me.
I want to win fair and square, not because the game is in my favor.
Death-Watch sounds great, though.
I love the units and wounding everything on 2+ will do wonders against T5.

If you want army list advice we need you to post your actual army list. From the rough list you posted, it seems your strategy is "a little bit of everything" which of course will never be strong. Are all your marines Ultramarines?

Neophyte2012 wrote:
After the continous nerf in CA and FAQ, Codex Space Marine is no match to a properly prepared Death Guard army. You haven't seen the worst like 54 Nurglings and 6 Nurgle Daemon Princes and 6 Drones. Take it easy, you can only hope for not losing that hard like being beaten 20-0 or almost been tabled and we start from there, find the ways try to mitigate the problems.

Despite being generally bad, there exists certain good ones in Marine Stratagem. Such as Orbital Bombardment, Flakk missile, Hellfire Shell, and (maybe very important for you) Tremor Shell (the TFC stratagem). The first 3 deals MW, which reduce at least one layer of the Death Guard defences. The last one was useless to me because my opponent brings all T6/7 "fly" units or infiltrators. However, your opponent uses Plague Marines and Poxwalkers, so the Tremor Shell is useful to slow at least one big blob down.

All these will cost CP, and marines usually lacks CP compare to other armies even after the FAQ giving battalion 5CPs. Take a small detachment of Ultramarines and make one of the UM character warlord might help, like 3 Librarians Supreme Command Detachment. Of course, a small IG battalion may do the CP generation better, but if you stick to "no soup, Astartes only", then UM maybe the only choice. Or, just switch to Ultramarine and take Guilliman for the additional 3CP and all those "Oh that is too OP" reroll ability, playing marines you need to make sure every shot counts. Despite being 400pts now Big G can fit quite well in 3000pts army. And scratch those "too OP" screams, your opponent is taking Morty, So no pressure for you taking Guilliman and spam fully geared Devastator.

The flanking attacks could work, but suggest choose the flank carefully. Generally speaking, you might want to pop up on the side where his long range shooting guys are placed instead of running into his assault units, no matter those close combat guys are strong or weak. Because by outflanking, you want to engage one portion of his army at a time instead getting attacked by the majority of his army at the same time. By the same logic, you want to kill the fast moving guys first, so the rest of his army might have to come to you piece meal.

That's my 2 cents by now, hope that help a little. Will come back if I pop out more ideas.

6 drones are impossible to play , now you can play 3x unless you play non matched, and 6 Nurgle Dp's means you must add a Nurgle demons detachment to have them
Btw hope then never face Dg+Nurgle demons .

But the game won't be "in your favour" you have not beaten this guy once, things are against you at the moment.

The narrative will just give you more than a fighting chance

Well, hes doing 3k, whick means he can take 4. Plus not everyone is playing with the beta rules. Although I would suggest them.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well, hes doing 3k, whick means he can take 4. Plus not everyone is playing with the beta rules. Although I would suggest them.

maybe he should play instead with less point where Dg cant take anything it needs, btw 3x is not a beta rule. is already an official rule

 ph34r wrote:
If you want army list advice we need you to post your actual army list. From the rough list you posted, it seems your strategy is "a little bit of everything" which of course will never be strong. Are all your marines Ultramarines?

Sorry.

HQ
Captain [6 PL, 105pts]
Selections: Jump Pack, 2x Lightning Claw, Raven's Fury

Librarian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 130pts]
Selections: 4) Fury of the Ancients, 6) Null Zone, Force stave, Storm bolter

Primaris Librarian [7 PL, 101pts]
Selections: 2) Might of Heroes, 5) Psychic Fortress, Force sword


Elites
Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 234pts]
Selections: 5x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Flamestorm Gauntlets


Dreadnought [7 PL, 136pts]
Selections: Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon


Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 196pts]
Selections: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon


Reiver Squad [10 PL, 180pts]
Selections: Bolt Carbine, 9x Reiver, Reiver Sergeant

Vanguard Veteran Squad [16 PL, 108pts]
Selections: Jump Pack
Space Marine Veteran
Selections: 2x Chainsword
Space Marine Veteran
Selections: 2x Chainsword
Space Marine Veteran
Selections: 2x Chainsword
Space Marine Veteran
Selections: 2x Chainsword
Space Marine Veteran
Selections: 2x Chainsword
Veteran Sergeant
Selections: 2x Chainsword

Vanguard Veteran Squad [16 PL, 108pts]
Selections: Jump Pack

Space Marine Veteran
Selections: 2x Chainsword
Space Marine Veteran
Selections: 2x Chainsword
Space Marine Veteran
Selections: 2x Chainsword
Space Marine Veteran
Selections: 2x Chainsword
Space Marine Veteran
Selections: 2x Chainsword
Veteran Sergeant
Selections: 2x Chainsword

Fast Attack
Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 135pts]
Selections: Assault bolter, 2x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant

Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 135pts]
Selections: Assault bolter, 2x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant

Heavy Support

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 170pts]

Selections: Armorium Cherub
Space Marine Sergeant
Selections: Boltgun, Chainsword
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon
Selections: Lascannon
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon
Selections: Missile launcher
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon
Selections: Lascannon
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon
Selections: Lascannon

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 170pts]
Selections: Armorium Cherub
Space Marine Sergeant
Selections: Boltgun, Chainsword
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon
Selections: Lascannon
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon
Selections: Missile launcher
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon
Selections: Lascannon
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon
Selections: Lascannon

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 120pts]
Space Marine Sergeant
Selections: Boltgun, Chainsword
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon
Selections: Heavy bolter
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon
Selections: Heavy bolter
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon
Selections: Heavy bolter
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon
Selections: Missile launcher

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 120pts]

Space Marine Sergeant
Selections: Boltgun, Chainsword
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon
Selections: Heavy bolter
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon
Selections: Heavy bolter
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon
Selections: Heavy bolter
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon
Selections: Missile launcher

Flyer
Stormhawk Interceptor [10 PL, 189pts]
Selections: 2x Assault cannon, Las-talon, Two Heavy Bolters

Stormtalon Gunship [9 PL, 204pts]
Selections: Twin assault cannon, Two Lascannons



Lord of War
Roboute Guilliman [18 PL, 385pts]

Battlescribe on Windows seems to be using some old point values.
On tablet this is exactly 3000 points.

And no, I don't play Ultramarines.
I'm playing my own chapter, which uses Black Templar and Ravenguard rules (Like, I can use both of their artifacts or chapter rules, depending on what I play. Like, I could use the crusader helmet and Strike from the shadows)
I know Guilliman's rules are for UM only, but my friend allows me to use him for my army.

But the game won't be "in your favour" you have not beaten this guy once, things are against you at the moment.

The narrative will just give you more than a fighting chance

Heh, fair enough.

Real quick because I'm short on time: Heavy bolters on Devs is a waste of Devs. Maaybe include one HB for the Hellfire Stratagem, but otherwise get heavier guns. More Lascannons, Grav Cannons, Plasma Cannons, anything. Have one Missile Launcher for the Flakk Stratagem.

Imo the flamer Aggressors will be a waste. The range is too short and you want to do damage as fast as possible. Others may disagree, but I think theyre pretty frail too. If your opponent doesn't want them there, he'll just kill em.

Sorry for the short reply.

Hrothgarmr wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
How is he getting close to you so fast? Poxes move 4 and even with advance most tables will take 3 turns to get close - they are mainly for obsec, and in a pure DG list morty without warptime - you should be able to put 18 lascannons x2 into him.

DG can be tough but if you splice up your list with some other factions you should easily have the dakka to ground him. In 2k games standard he gets killed turn 1 if he has no miasma, at 3k it should be NP. If he is using the deathshroud they also move (from memory) i think 4-5 inches (5?) so morty will be out of range of bodyguard after turn 1. No deepstrike outside of your deployment till turn 2... Should have at least a full turn blasting him with no BG next to him at all.

He uses some HQ (really sorry I don't know all of their names) to advance with 3D6 and depending on the mission he reaches me in round 2-3.
And there are also the teleport strikes, sometimes I have to deal with 5+ units of terminators on turn one (we ignore the FAQ rule).
When I play Grey Knights I do the same thing, of course and when we play GK vs T'au I usually win that way.
But at least GK Terminators are T4 without FNP.
I just don't have the firepower to deal with all of them, especially since he rolls his charges really well.
Most of them hit and then I'm in close-combat with 20 terminators and the game is pretty much over at that point.

Have you tried some narrative games that are more in your favour?

Not yet.
He wants to try that, it just doesn't feel right to me.
I want to win fair and square, not because the game is in my favor.
Death-Watch sounds great, though.
I love the units and wounding everything on 2+ will do wonders against T5.

I realize you don't play DG but there is no model that lets him advance 3d6 if he is he is cheating (you probably remember wrong). THe noxious blightbringer at best lets you roll 2 dice for the advance and take the higher of the two which I think raises the "average" advance from 3.5 to 4.5 or something. It shoudl still take 2 turns of advancing before he can even charge you turn 3 (at least with the poxwalkers). Now with the termies dropping in without beta rules I can tell you have other target priorities. But still, the terms without warp time (no beta rules) - have to hit a 9 inch charge. You shoudl be able to get a full turn of shooting into all his terms which are like half his list by points ballpark. Just hit them with ap -1 to -2 weps and they are swiss cheese and put the las cannons into morty. Have you considered plasma spam? It pretty much wrecks his list - what keeps plasma "bad" is the -1 to hit legion trait whcih DG does not have - rapid fire plasma on str 7-8shots with significant AP pretty much shreds everything in his list.

Also are 54 nurglings really competitive? In a tournament format due to inability to clear the models I get it - but that was really a london GT list that catered to that ruleset. I don't think its a strong list in general - people need to stop using the London GT as an example of what is imba in the meta - otherwise orks don't need a codex as they are already broken (time to wake up). Those lists cater to the specific format and are really just based on not getting wiped out and obsec for 3-4 turns.

What ruleset are you playing? I may of missed it - are you doing maelstrom or only eternal war or ITC etc.?

Proxy one of your flyer into a fire raptor. Keep it near guilliman. Also I would lose the vanguard vets and get more dakka. Sternguard, asscanrazor, even more devs, a thunderfirecannon to slow them with the stratagem even, Fw rapier batteries..
I prefer to put as much distance and firepower possibile between me and the DG.

Also, avoid shooting mortarion until you clear most of everything else. Oh and you need some chaff, just to absorb some charge and/or fire and keep your damage dealer safer.

I realize you don't play DG but there is no model that lets him advance 3d6 if he is he is cheating (you probably remember wrong). THe noxious blightbringer at best lets you roll 2 dice for the advance and take the higher of the two which I think raises the "average" advance from 3.5 to 4.5 or something. It shoudl still take 2 turns of advancing before he can even charge you turn 3 (at least with the poxwalkers). Now with the termies dropping in without beta rules I can tell you have other target priorities. But still, the terms without warp time (no beta rules) - have to hit a 9 inch charge. You shoudl be able to get a full turn of shooting into all his terms which are like half his list by points ballpark. Just hit them with ap -1 to -2 weps and they are swiss cheese and put the las cannons into morty.

Also are 54 nurglings really competitive? In a tournament format due to inability to clear the models I get it - but that was really a london GT list that catered to that ruleset. I don't think its a strong list in general - people need to stop using the London GT as an example of what is imba in the meta - otherwise orks don't need a codex as they are already broken (time to wake up). Those lists cater to the specific format and are really just based on not getting wiped out and obsec for 3-4 turns.

What ruleset are you playing? I may of missed it - are you doing maelstrom or only eternal war or ITC etc.?

Yeah, that's what I mean.
2D6 is what I meant. I really should double-check my posts ^^
We usually play Eternal War, sorry for not mentioning that (is it obvious that even after all of these games I'm still not 100% sure about the new rules? lol)
And with all the dakka I got, his army SHOULD be swiss cheese, but his saves are just insane.
I realize there is no such thing as luck, but some of his saves really are frustrating.
I can spam las-cannons as much as I want, if he keeps rolling his 4++ or 5+ FNP they are useless.
And there is nothing I can really do about that.

Real quick because I'm short on time: Heavy bolters on Devs is a waste of Devs. Maaybe include one HB for the Hellfire Stratagem, but otherwise get heavier guns. More Lascannons, Grav Cannons, Plasma Cannons, anything. Have one Missile Launcher for the Flakk Stratagem.

Imo the flamer Aggressors will be a waste. The range is too short and you want to do damage as fast as possible. Others may disagree, but I think theyre pretty frail too. If your opponent doesn't want them there, he'll just kill em.

That's true.
Flamer-Aggressors rarely worked for me, because they always died before they got into range.
I thought about using them with Strike From the Shadows, but then they can't shoot twice anymore.
And they are insanely expensive.

Nope. Have a longer post coming-blocked at work- but you have too much and too little bolt weaponry, IMO.

3K against DG? I would target 90 guys with bolters minimum (counting scouts), or leave all bolt style weapons at home. No hvy bolters, no assault bolters. Put plasma on those platforms, these guys are not Tau. Exception: Boltstorm aggressors are solid with RG tactics.

Make VV 1 squad, add powerfist equivalent, make captain lieutenant, add jumppack chaplain. Use to "snipe" once screens depleted. Add thunder storm shield termies to termie librarian, use to counter his terminators. Speedbump unit. Add screens-bolter scouts are good. Add vindicators or thunderfire cannons. Rievers to deathwatch or not at all. Pistols. Again, a chappy and lieutenant.

My 2 cents.

If we are going to list tailor to fight nurgle and your friend is giving you the major advantage to use Gman + templars + raven guard we gotta be able to come up with something. I'm guessing on points here. Fill in with whatever you have on hand.

Bat #1
HQs
captain-teeth of tera?
LT - kit depends on points.
These guys support your secondary screen that is outside of Gmans bubble (aggressros and crusader squad). Not really important.

troops
4x raven guard scouts (for the -1 to hit, I like them in squad sizes of 6 with a storm bolter + CS on the sarge) 2 to hold down mid-field, (prevent deepstrike and act as speed bumps) 2 to screen flanks unless you can set-up to prevent deepstrike on one flank.

FA
1 6-man inceptor squad (deep strike these guys next to Gman once enemy is w/in 18". 36 s5 -1 shots re-rolling everything puts holes in a lot of stuff + the 36 s6 -1 re-rolling dual ACs from the RBs should kill his pox walkers in 1 turn if lucky, 2 if unlucky/average)

Heavy
3x auto cannon + heavy bolter preds (auto cannons make troops that rely on invulns sad. Better return than las cannons vs morty) If you can pop kill shot watch things melt.
Make sure you screen these guys (Termies should only be landing near your scouts)

Bat #2
HQ
Libby (primarus or w/ JP)
??? maybe second libby, jumpack + Th captian. Techpriest if you are really low on points.

Troops
3x crusader squads (plasma gun, grav cannon, combi-plas)

Grav works great against marines/termies (4, s5, good ap and d3 damage helps against all the FNP and he's landing w/in your range.)

7337s
1 6 man bolter aggressors (use these to screen the preds. Nothing should want to charge these near Gman)

Heavy
3x dev squads (A - 1x grav, 1x ML + cherub, B - 1x grav, 1x ML cherub, C - 1x grav, 1x HB + cherub) Mostly here for 3 rounds of flak strat (you have 16 recyclable CP, gotta use it somewhere)

Transports
3x razor backs with twin AC

Heavy Aux
Guilliman

Aux
Culexus assassin


Goal is to get everything that shoots w/in 6" of gulliman. razors-gman-preds, one of the devs and one of the crusaders should all fit, depending on firing lanes/terrain. Use scouts as deepstrike screens/speed bumps. Secondary screen of assassin (no smites if he's the closest) and boltstorm aggressors.

Use the scouts as your first wave of screens (stop deepstriking and his troops are so slow that you can tie a couple up while you shoot the rest). Between the AC razors, dakka ceptors and bolt aggressors you are putting out crazy amount of shots in that 24-18" range (which it takes him 2 turns to cross).

You could probably run this as one brigade, super heavy aux and aux if you split the inceptors to 2 squads and add something cheap (heavy bolter sentry gun, dual ac sentry, naked assault squad, scout bikers...) if you are limited to 3 detachments.

If he's letting you go crazy don't forget about the BT strat to deny on a 4+, with all the CP you have it's worth it to shut down his important spells. Between that, the assassin and your libby you should have some psychic defense.

Again, I'm not sure on the points on the above list but it's close to 3k. I'd say the dev squads are the least valuable (mostly there for the flak + HB strat)

My 2 cents:
I haven’t done much 8th and did a lot of editions before that, so YMMV on my opinions.

1) This list is targeted at killing Tau, possibly solid against Orks, guard, and maybe decent against other marines. This is not sufficient against DG.
2) There are the following issues:
a. Too much bolter-style weaponry, but not enough bolters+bodies
i. At 3k, if I was running a bolter hoard against DG, I’d be targeting 90 bodies toting bolters *as a minimum* with heavy weapon support. Scouts are acceptable toward this total. I’d prefer 100+. Even DG aren’t super-survivable against other marines at 2:1 wounds.
ii. If it’s DG you are facing, it’s bolter horde or leave the bolt-style weaponry at home. Exception: Aggressors.
b. Not enough high damage weaponry
c. What high damage weaponry there is, is too expensive.
3) There’s too many CC units. Marines do not excel in CC, except with kitted out characters or stacked aura abilities.

I don’t want to just give you generic list advice- I don’t know what you have for models. Personally, I’d lean toward the following ideas:

1) Aggressors with boltstorms and missiles>flamestorm aggressors against everything not poxwalker. Also, if you can get your hand on one more, and have 2 squad of 3, that would also be superior IMO
2) No Troops- intercessors, scouts, Tacticals? You need at least scouts for screens against the terminators
3) *In this case*, I’m going to disagree with the frater’s general collective wisdom and suggest using storm shield/thunderhammer terminators as a partial counter-strike- let him deep strike first, he should tangle with your screens, and then drop your speedbump unit between his termies and the rest of your army.
4) Demote that captain to a lieutenant and add a chaplain with jump pack. Make one big vanguard squad (not multiple squads of 6), and make sure somebody has a powerfist equivalent weapon.
a. I’m less sure about this, but in general, you don’t want to get in CC with this brick. This is a counter-charge/opportunity strike unit using the models you have. I’m thinking something to hunt his vehicles or characters
5) Reivers: Same kind of change. DS a chaplain+lieutenant or don’t use against this list. They just don’t punch enough. Maybe if upgraded to DW, so their pistols gain SIA.
6) Interceptors- I *hate* this kind of advice, but against DG, plasma or don’t bother bringing.
7) Helblasters
8) Devastators- lose the heavy bolters. Only good against the poxwalkers
9) Dreads: Good, IMO.
10) Librarians: Use the terminator with one of your drop squads (termies or VV).
11) Go big guns for the Poxwalkers. Vindicators or Thunderfire cannons. Still useful with killshot against the big guy.
12) Flyers: Acceptable loadouts

Essentially, you’ve already told us his strategy: Drop terminators to hold your attention, walk slowly up the board using the poxwalkers as a shield, and then roll over you with whatever you didn’t kill.
So, divide the battle into phases:
1) What are you going to do when he drops his terminators?
2) What are you going to do about his screens?
3) What are you going to do about his slow heavy-hitters?

This is where my lack of familiarity with 8th comes in, but the principles should be good. If each aspect of his army is a question, what’s your answer?
1) Mortarion?
2) His tanks?
3) His horde?
4) His DG?
5) His terminators?
If you find yourself with a single unit that you are relying on for multiple answers, and only that unit, you’d better be toting more than one. And they’d better be doing their job every single turn.
My recommendations above boil down to: Create a castle with some alpha-strike/counter-strike style elements. A big VV squad with Chaplain and Lieutenant with some powerfist-style weapons to “snipe” Morty or the tanks, starting in reserve, a big thunderhammer/storm shield squad with librarian support to speedbump his advance, also in reserve, an emphasis on either dedicated horde firepower (boltstorm aggressors) or anti-tank (lascannon devs sitting near Bobby G, maybe some Vindies or Thunderfires that can flexibly do both, the dreads are a decent start on that), etc. And getting *something* for screens, to keep those terminators off your guns!
(I’ve played codex marines since 1999. Sometimes they’re good, more normally they’re sub-par but with a few tricks. Sometimes they’re just weak. Part of your advantage is just spamming bodies- Codex Marines typically has cheaper marines and gimmicks than everyone else. I personally have always leaned toward “if another Marine player would have 40-50 bodies down, I want 60-70 and then PLAY FOR OBJECTIVES” and have won more than I lose, but that’s a target saturation/weight of dice strategy that doesn’t always pay off.)
Here, you just need to contain his terminators so you can ignore them while you pummel that hammer coming toward you. That means using pummeling guns only (and bolters aren’t it unless you drop ~200 shots/turn), and having things that are tough *enough* that you are in an attrition war with his forward assault units. You can even lose the attrition war, just do it slowly. You also want some quick-strike style units if he leaves anything vulnerable, like Morty (I typically have used a trio of multi-melta landspeeders for this). And remember you aren’t a close combat army, so you have to leverage- a lieutenant’s rerolls to wound, combined with his ability to take wargear, added to a chaplain’s “reroll to hit” combined with a unit with a good base number of attacks- that’s an *adequate* to “decent* close combat unit, especially if it’s fast.

Well, one thing I would suggest is for you to get his codex and read it in detail. You are playing him for 29 games straight and you are not sure what HQ causes him to move 3d6?

Sometimes, the player himself may be playing some rules wrongly. If you are playing him consistently, you should find out more about all the special rules of his units, his relics, strategems, everything.

Then you will know which units are the most dangerous, what are their weakness, etc etc. You will know what kind of combo/strategem/phychic he is using to maximum effect. And if he is using some of them wrong, you will know it as well. Sometimes, these are not intentional, but it happens. Thats why the best players don't just know their own armies, they also know all of the other faction's army rules as well.

I agree with the rest though, at high points, I think DG becomes really deadly at higher points.

I would just like to point out though. If you are playing pure SM with no imperial guard, you are likely thin on bubblewrap (stuff that you can use to wrap around your important stuff). Bubble wrap is very very important. You may not like it, but at 3000 points, you can't say you can't afford the points for bubble wrap even if its marines. I hope you know what bubblewrapping means. (It means surrounding your important shooty stuff with cheap troops to create an area denial zone that his stuff cannot deep strike or move into in order to threaten your shooty stuff, whether to charge them or to close range doubletap shoot them).

Like your examples, he can have 5 terminator units teleporting in. This seems to show that you may not be bubble wrapping your important units enough. That Gulliman castle may not be that great if you give him the space to teleport in 5 terminator units to blast them out of existence at doubletap plasma range. You have space marine scouts to help create more area denial as well.