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I can understand wanting to run dual chainsword VVs for the two extra attacks but,
I run a 5 man Jump VV squad with dual LC lead by a Chaplain. Yes you lose one additional attack per VV but you gain -2AP, reroll failed hits and wounds on the LC. Chappy gets a Plaspistol for a bit of shooty fun.

Unit total cost = 247pts/14PL (yeah dual LC is expensive)

Besides that, getting face to face with DG is almost always bad. Getting shooty with them seems to work best.
You need more base troops to lay down fire to wittle his stuff down. Not sold on Crusaders, base Tacs are just as good, add a Grav Cannon, ML, or Plascannon for massed wounds. Intercessors give a bit of extra range, especially for Rapid fire, add in the Stalker BR (ap-2) and an aux Gren Launcher (for 30" grenades).


As for the Relics, AFAIK RGs Relics don't count as they are his Wargear, (correct me if I am wrong.).
So, you can give the Raven's Fury to the Chappy, and spend the CP to drop the Armour Indomitus on the Primaris Libby.

To add some context to my list:

I agree with the other posters that getting into melee with his army is a mistake (which is why I dropped all of your melee units from my list).

You need:

A. massed fire to deal with his pox walkers (aggressors, inceptors and razor backs). The amount of shots you are putting out with this fire-base works against pretty much anything when backed by full re-rolls (thanks Rowboat).

B. Good ap + multi-damage fire to deal with his plague marines/termies (grav, plasma)

C. High str, low ap, multi-damage to deal with morty + princes (pred auto cannon)

D. Screens to keep deepstrike away from you (scouts) and to provide cheap chaff to distract, sit on objectives and tie-up anything that doesn't stay in his blob.

Crusaders > tacs because of the extra weapon you can squeeze in the crusader squads (special, heavy + sarge vs heavy+sarge) so you get 2 plasma per crusader squad vs 1 per tac (at min sized)

Any points you spend on melee are better spent shooting. Your aggressors put out way more s4 ap 0 shots than you can get from dual chainsword VVs.

If you don't have the razors run the stormhawks/talons/raven for the dakka (dual ACs + HBs) it's just harder to keep them near big Bobby G.

Thanks, everyone.
I'll try to follow your advice as much as possible and - which is just as important - I now know what to buy next.
I don't own a jump-pack chaplain and only 10 scouts, so that's on the list.

I've tried Crusaders in the past and they never really worked for me, but I can see why some of you disagree.
I think Devastators are only slightly more expensive and get a massive boost in damage, but they aren't troops and I'm already short on those.
Will see what I can do.


Edit:
I only own a single razorback, but I do have a Stormraven, so I'll put those in and the VV will have to go.
The RG relic should count, because I play a nameless captain with it, not Shrike.
But since Girlyman is in the list, I got some CP to spare anyway and the Armour Indomitus is worth it.

I could change the las-cannons on my flyers to heavy bolters, since they'll hunt infantry anyway and get some points freed up for a Pred.
My friend loves shooting my vehicles and dreads first, but DG only has so much dakka, he can't kill it all.
And if I kill his screening units he's vulnerable.

Some guard might be a nice addition too.
Always liked them anyway.

the "RG" in my post was for R. Girlyman. not Raven Guard.

 blackmage wrote:

maybe he should play instead with less point where Dg cant take anything it needs, btw 3x is not a beta rule. is already an official rule

No, its not.

It’s just their suggestion for matched play games , not a hard requirement for every game ever.

A lot of people will be using it, but it’s not carved in stone that you have to use it.

 p5freak wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

maybe he should play instead with less point where Dg cant take anything it needs, btw 3x is not a beta rule. is already an official rule

No, its not.

yes it is... read better the big FAQ, the only beta rules are battle brothers ,psychic focus, targeting caracters and tactical reserves, read under interim balance review where organised event sheet is....

read the rulebook FAQ and you find same sheet, so yes is not a beta. then you can keep play as if were, but you cant play any tournament anymore playing 4 hive tyrants for example.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ascalam wrote:
It’s just their suggestion for matched play games , not a hard requirement for every game ever.

A lot of people will be using it, but it’s not carved in stone that you have to use it.

try attend a serious tournament playing 4x of something, that rule IS NOT A BETA....it's official check rule book FAQ, no one will ever more let you play more than 3x, unless you play at home with friends or narrative.

 blackmage wrote:

yes it is... read better the big FAQ, the only beta rules are battle brothers ,psychic focus, targeting caracters and tactical reserves, read under interim balance review where organised event sheet is....

Its not a regular official rule you have to follow. Its only a suggestion. Use it, or not, your choice. If you play a tournament the TO can rule whatever he wants. He can include it, or not.

 p5freak wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

yes it is... read better the big FAQ, the only beta rules are battle brothers ,psychic focus, targeting caracters and tactical reserves, read under interim balance review where organised event sheet is....

Its not a regular official rule you have to follow. Its only a suggestion. Use it, or not, your choice. If you play a tournament the TO can rule whatever he wants. He can include it, or not.

good luck find a single tournament all around the world not using it, and i talk about serious tournaments. No one want play again with things like flyrant spam or 12-15 oblys and so on, now the game looks like found some kind of balance, ty but i stay stick to 3x.
TO can also decide you can play 5 detachment at 2000? did you find someone let you did it?

Well, that worked.

I kicked out the Vanguards and the Dreads, changed the hebos on the Devastators to gravs and added some Intercessors.
We played Hammer and Anvil / Fire and Fury and I tabled him on turn 4.
He played two princes, instead of Mortarion and two Plagueburst Crawlers and Guilliman killed all four of those.
I never really used grav-weapons all that much, today they murdered his terminators.
That one dev squad probably killed 4-5 times their points.

Thanks again for your advice!

 blackmage wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

maybe he should play instead with less point where Dg cant take anything it needs, btw 3x is not a beta rule. is already an official rule

No, its not.

yes it is... read better the big FAQ, the only beta rules are battle brothers ,psychic focus, targeting caracters and tactical reserves, read under interim balance review where organised event sheet is....

read the rulebook FAQ and you find same sheet, so yes is not a beta. then you can keep play as if were, but you cant play any tournament anymore playing 4 hive tyrants for example.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ascalam wrote:
It’s just their suggestion for matched play games , not a hard requirement for every game ever.

A lot of people will be using it, but it’s not carved in stone that you have to use it.

try attend a serious tournament playing 4x of something, that rule IS NOT A BETA....it's official check rule book FAQ, no one will ever more let you play more than 3x, unless you play at home with friends or narrative.

Perhaps read it more thoroughly? It literally says ‘we suggest’ in the rulebook FAQ that you posted an image of, which I have also read, and that the TO can feel free to modify it if they wish look right under the area you highlighted.

I’d not be at all surprised if most tournaments and game stores adopt it, but there is nothing requiring them to do so if they don’t want to. It is also clearly intended for organized play (tournaments) not every game anywhere, ever. Not all games are tournaments, dude. Most likely aren’t.

Personally I like the rule, but a suggestion from the GW rules team for use in Matched Play tournaments is just that, a suggestion. Not a rule or a dictate from on high. It is, as I said before, ‘not carved in stone that you HAVE to use it for every game, ever’

It also says that at the 2001-3000pt range the number of detachments and units-per-dataslate is 4 per army.

The OP states they have been playing 3k games, so.....

Plus that whole thing is for organized play, it says so RIGHT ON THE PAGE. So it has no relevance for games against buddies. No point arguing about it.

Hrothgarmr wrote:
Well, that worked.

I kicked out the Vanguards and the Dreads, changed the hebos on the Devastators to gravs and added some Intercessors.
We played Hammer and Anvil / Fire and Fury and I tabled him on turn 4.
He played two princes, instead of Mortarion and two Plagueburst Crawlers and Guilliman killed all four of those.
I never really used grav-weapons all that much, today they murdered his terminators.
That one dev squad probably killed 4-5 times their points.

Thanks again for your advice!

That's great news! Congrats! Welcome to heavy weapons saturration

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Plus that whole thing is for organized play, it says so RIGHT ON THE PAGE. So it has no relevance for games against buddies. No point arguing about it.

Yeah except most groups use that so not following leads you easily out of opponents. As it is i have higher chance of finding no premeasuring opponent than one that ignores that "suggestion"

I remember losing hard countless times to my friends 4th edition Tyranids, and then one day an amazing win due to a super magically lucky Lord of Change killing three of his monstrous creatures due some rules or upgrades I can't remember.

Definitely worth it to keep trying for that one victory!

Anecdotes aside, one way to do some hurt to big stuff with Space Marines is a Deredeo, or 3, with plasma cannonades......and make them Dark Angels, with Azrael around for the 4++ aura, and use that Stratagem to give +1 damage to the plasma. Those will do flat 4 damage per wound, I think the range is 36" but could be mistaken about that.

Suicide Null Zone is a good recommendation. It's not just soup if wins a whole meal for the Emprah!

Congrats on the win