Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi,

Quick question:

If a chaos space marine player uses the Flakk Missile Stratagem and Endless Cacophony stratagem - do you get the benefit of the flakk missile stratagem when they fire again?

The reason I ask is, in the Space Marine FAQ it says the following:

Q: How do the Flakk Missile and Hellfire Shells Stratagems
interact with an Armorium Cherub? Are you able to ‘reload’ the
weapon and fire again with the benefit of the Stratagem?
A: Yes

Yes it would work.

The Stratagems both use the phrase 'this phase' when saying how long the effect takes place for. Endless Cacophony happens in the same phase as the main shooting, so it would still affect it.

 Bryan01 wrote:
Hi,

Quick question:

If a chaos space marine player uses the Flakk Missile Stratagem and Endless Cacophony stratagem - do you get the benefit of the flakk missile stratagem when they fire again?

The reason I ask is, in the Space Marine FAQ it says the following:

Q: How do the Flakk Missile and Hellfire Shells Stratagems
interact with an Armorium Cherub? Are you able to ‘reload’ the
weapon and fire again with the benefit of the Stratagem?
A: Yes

Yes, for the same reason the SM get to do it with a Cherub.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Bryan01 wrote:
Hi,

Quick question:

If a chaos space marine player uses the Flakk Missile Stratagem and Endless Cacophony stratagem - do you get the benefit of the flakk missile stratagem when they fire again?

The reason I ask is, in the Space Marine FAQ it says the following:

Q: How do the Flakk Missile and Hellfire Shells Stratagems
interact with an Armorium Cherub? Are you able to ‘reload’ the
weapon and fire again with the benefit of the Stratagem?
A: Yes

Yes, for the same reason the SM get to do it with a Cherub.

How do we know the SM FAQ is not a special snowflake ruling?

 Happyjew wrote:
How do we know the SM FAQ is not a special snowflake ruling?

Because it doesn't ignore the RaW. Thus, by definition, it is clarificatory.

Cheers everyone.

Well, the Armorium Cher is a bit different than the EC stratagem. It happens immediately after the unit has fired, and EC is at the end of the shooting phase. Is Flakk still active during the second round of shooting?

Armorium Cherub is a wargear rule that says "Once per game, after a model in the unit has fired, an Armored Cherub can reload that models weapons".

Flakk says "Use this stratagem just before a friendly Heretic Astartes Infantry model attacks a unit that can fly with a Missile Launcher."


And EC is" Use this stratagem at the end of the shooting phase".

Armorium Cherub and Endless Cacophony are NOT similar and the SM ruling does not show precedence.

It is a Timing issue at best. Save the Missile shooting for last, Flakk, Then EC.

You can't activate Flakk a second time per Matched Play rules, and you would have to activate Flakk a second time after EC.

If Strategems stay active indefinitely, then I would only have to pay for Fire Frenzy once, to continue to double shoot a Brute turn after turn.

That wasn't my point though. Flakk says 'you only make a single hit roll with this weapon this phase'. It sets a scope of this phase for its effect, not this shot. So it still applies for the rest of the phase.

There are two possible interpretations that still mean it doesn't work though:

1) end of phase isn't in the phase. I think that's a silly position, but some people argue it here.

2) a super strict reading might mean that the weapon can't shoot a second time at all when you use Endless Cacophony. Because the strat says you only make a single hit roll this phase, and you've already made a hit roll so you don't get any more, flakk or otherwise.

With regard to End of the Phase, historically it has indeed been written as part of the Phase, after everything else happens in the Phase, but before going onto the next Phase.

Don't know if that's in the new rulebook or not.

What once was part of the phase is irrelevant.There is no definition when a phase has ended, or when it hasnt started yet. We dont know if at the start of....phase or at the end of.....phase is within a phase, or not. There are two examples in the BRB on pg. 215 telling us which situations are outside of a phase.

 p5freak wrote:
What once was part of the phase is irrelevant.There is no definition when a phase has ended, or when it hasnt started yet. We dont know if at the start of....phase or at the end of.....phase is within a phase, or not. There are two examples in the BRB on pg. 215 telling us which situations are outside of a phase.

Without getting in to that debate again, if you do happen to treat the end of phase as not in phase then clearly you don't get Flakk. If it is still in phase then you do get Flakk unless my issue number 2) above is actually RAW. Which I'm not totally sure about, hoping someone else can weigh in on that one.

OK, the second part of the Stratagem applies to the whole phase, but the first part says to use the Stratagem before firing.

What if we fire our ML first, Flakk, go to other unit shooting, then EC the shooting again.

Are we recycling the Stratagem.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
OK, the second part of the Stratagem applies to the whole phase, but the first part says to use the Stratagem before firing.

What if we fire our ML first, Flakk, go to other unit shooting, then EC the shooting again.

Are we recycling the Stratagem.

You only need to use it the first time you fire. It then lasts the rest of the phase.