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 BaconCatBug wrote:
"Blitz move" is not the same as "move". You can't just ignore half a rule because you dislike the result.

yeah that's not how the rules work

It's a move. Same as a normal move, is a move.
Show how I can't advance, when the rules show I can. You need something written here, not your usual straw man argument this time round.

I'm normally closer to Bacon but I gotta agree with the chorus here. Advancing is not tied to a specific kind of movement but rather the unit being selected to move in the movement phase from the RAW quoted in this thread.

RAW absolutely - you can advance.

I’m with bacon cat and Johnny hell and them. It replaces the normal movement options. Again it comes down to intent of the rule. What does it represent, it’s the solitaire making a fast burst of extra movement, hence the increase to move stat and attacks. So the benefit is the M+2D6, trying to argue that he can add another D6 in spite of it saying instead of a normal move is trying to twist an extra advantage. If that was the intention, as said above it would say M+3D6 or say you could advance. It doesn’t. U are already better off. Be happy with a potential 20” move.

Isn't advancing just extending your normal move with D6, and then later suffer limitations to what you can do.

When you declare it seems irrelevant

I'm with the [blitz+advance=yes] side. All the following are what I consider moves: normal move, blitz, charge, pile in, consolidate, heroic intervention. But only blitz and normal move out of those happens in your movement phase and therefore qualify for advance.
As a sidenote I would not consider deployment stuff moves, like da jump or disembark for example.

No. Rules-wise, Advance is not an "extension" to your normal move, but an alternative to your normal move which extends your movement characteristic by D6" in return for some limitations. But it's an entirely different thing from "normal move".

Which is the "RAW"* version I would see against Blitz and Advance.

Normally, you have two options in the movement phase when you select a unit:

1. - Move (this includes moving up to your move characteristic)
2. - Advance (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + D6")

Blitz replaces No. 1 (assuming that is the "normal move", though of course it's not called that in the BRB), thus in a turn the Solitaire blitzes, he has the following options

1. Blitz (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + 2D6)
2. Advance (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + D6")


Now, of course, another question would be if the Solitaire could Blitz, opt for the Advance move instead of the Blitz move, and still benefit from the extra attacks. But that's another discussion, I suppose.


* as always, "RAW" is usually used incorrectly here, because a strictly textual interpretation of 40K rules ignoring the intention/golden rule is always a violation of true RAW.

If the blitz rule doesnt restrict you from advancing then yes, you can advance.

 p5freak wrote:
If the blitz rule doesnt restrict you from advancing then yes, you can advance.

The Blitz rule does not restrict you from advancing, but Advance is defined as "Move Characteristic + D6", while Blitz is defined as "Move Characteristic + 2D6"

If you opt for the Advance, you move less than when you opt for the Blitz move you unlocked with the Blitz ability.

If, in theory, you could do BOTH Advance and Blitz, a Solitaire would actually move 24 + 3D6 inches (Advance being 12+D6 and Blitz being 12+2D6).


Or, in other words, a normal Space Marine cannot move AND advance either. A Space Marine can move OR advance. The former is his Movement stat, the latter is his Movement stat +D6.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
No. Rules-wise, Advance is not an "extension" to your normal move, but an alternative to your normal move which extends your movement characteristic by D6" in return for some limitations. But it's an entirely different thing from "normal move".

Which is the "RAW"* version I would see against Blitz and Advance.

Normally, you have two options in the movement phase when you select a unit:

1. - Move (this includes moving up to your move characteristic)
2. - Advance (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + D6")

Blitz replaces No. 1 (assuming that is the "normal move", though of course it's not called that in the BRB), thus in a turn the Solitaire blitzes, he has the following options

1. Blitz (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + 2D6)
2. Advance (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + D6")


Now, of course, another question would be if the Solitaire could Blitz, opt for the Advance move instead of the Blitz move, and still benefit from the extra attacks. But that's another discussion, I suppose.


* as always, "RAW" is usually used incorrectly here, because a strictly textual interpretation of 40K rules ignoring the intention/golden rule is always a violation of true RAW.

I believe this is correct.

You can "move" or you can "advance" or you can do nothing during your movement phase (excluding stratagems etc).

If Blitz replaces the "move" aspect, you must pick between "advance" and "Blitz" if you decide to use the ability. When you advance you are not moving normally.

Therefore you cannot Blitz and Advance.

To be honest we should have figured this to be correct, when Johnny and BCB agree on something it's pretty likely to be correct RAW.

I'd say this is also RAI - the extra D6" is the benefit of Blitzing, it is designed to be a better version of the advance move, not something to be used with it.

"Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the solitaire, you can make a blitz move with it. If you do so add 2D6" to the move characteristic for this turn....."

It doesnt say anything about replacing the normal move with a blitz move. You simply add 2D6" to the 12" move characteristic. When you choose to advance you add 1D6" to 12" + 2D6".

 p5freak wrote:
"Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the solitaire, you can make a blitz move with it. If you do so add 2D6" to the move characteristic for this turn....."

It doesnt say anything about replacing the normal move with a blitz move. You simply add 2D6" to the 12" move characteristic. When you choose to advance you add 1D6" to 12" + 2D6".

This is wrong for a number of reasons, the first, is that it's just wrong as shown thus;

Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the solitaire

If you do something instead of something else, in this case it can be seen to replace the other action, albeit temporarily (once per battle).

By your argument the Solitaire can then move it's movement characteristic twice, add 2D6" to that move characteristic then add another D6" to the first characteristic. 24" + 3D6" movement? I'd love it to be true, but alas, balance.

E - I think Sunny has spelled it out pretty clear. I'm not sure how you can still argue otherwise? His breakdown of the actions we can take in the movement phase and why that limits the blitz + advance are pretty clear.

No, that's not what was said.
Instead of making a normal move. A normal move is your move characteristic

Nothing states you cannot then advance , which adds to your move. Note, not "normal" move, just "move

How you're getting that you're able to move" again is beyond me. It's a pure leap unsupported in rules or logic

Move plus 2d6 plus d6 if you want to advance is entirely within the rules.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

By your argument the Solitaire can then move it's movement characteristic twice, add 2D6" to that move characteristic then add another D6" to the first characteristic. 24" + 3D6" movement? I'd love it to be true, but alas, balance.

No. His move characteristic becomes 12" + 2D6". From just 12" to 12" + 2D6". On top of that you add 1D6" for advancing, because advancing adds 1D6" to the move characteristic.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
"Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the solitaire, you can make a blitz move with it. If you do so add 2D6" to the move characteristic for this turn....."

It doesnt say anything about replacing the normal move with a blitz move. You simply add 2D6" to the 12" move characteristic. When you choose to advance you add 1D6" to 12" + 2D6".

This is wrong for a number of reasons, the first, is that it's just wrong as shown thus;

Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the solitaire

If you do something instead of something else, in this case it can be seen to replace the other action, albeit temporarily (once per battle).

This is where you're going wrong. Advancing doesn't replace anything, it supplements your move. The only requirement we have to be able to Advance is selecting a unit in the movement phase, as quoted earlier in this thread. We select the Solitaire to move, therefore we can Advance. It really is that simple.

The three stooges of you above are wrong.

You can do one of 3 things normally in the movement phase, let's call them actions for ease.

1. Move normally aka your movement characteristic
2. Advance (must be declared before you move the model I believe according to BRB).
3. Do nothing.

If you do one you cannot do the other - they are mutually exclusive. I cannot move and advance. I cannot move and also not move.

When you elect to use Blitz you do so, as written, instead of your movement action. Blitz doesn't just change your movement profile, it IS your movement action (as stated).

As we know from earlier - I cannot use my move action and also use my advance action on the same unit. They are mutually exclusive. Hence I cannot blitz and advance.

And how do you Advance? You select a unit to move and declare it's Advancing. This concept of a "normal" move (your point 1 above) doesn't exist in the rules in the way you're trying to invoke it. The only thing that matters is we have selected a unit to move.

Slipspace wrote:
And how do you Advance? You select a unit to move and declare it's Advancing. This concept of a "normal" move (your point 1 above) doesn't exist in the rules in the way you're trying to invoke it. The only thing that matters is we have selected a unit to move.

The concept of a normal move is explained in the same section of the rulebook as the advance rule.

Moving
A model can be moved in any direction,
to a distance, in inches, equal to or
less than the Move characteristic on its
datasheet.

So you can select a unit to resolve the move rule above, but before you change it's position by following the move rule, you can instead use the advance rule to move D6 + movement statistic. the Blitz move is an additional rule that you use instead of using the move rule (and thus, instead of using the advance rule) that means you move 2d6 + movement characteristic.

There's probably a lot of 7th mentality lingering in people's heads, where Advancing was a distinct action that happened in another phase. (running in shooting phase)

Slipspace wrote:
And how do you Advance? You select a unit to move and declare it's Advancing. This concept of a "normal" move (your point 1 above) doesn't exist in the rules in the way you're trying to invoke it. The only thing that matters is we have selected a unit to move.

You declare a unit is advancing, yes. You don't select it to 'move' because that is a different thing.

If you are advancing you are not doing the same thing as if you were moving. This is absolutely in the rules.

You have proven the point.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
And how do you Advance? You select a unit to move and declare it's Advancing. This concept of a "normal" move (your point 1 above) doesn't exist in the rules in the way you're trying to invoke it. The only thing that matters is we have selected a unit to move.

You declare a unit is advancing, yes. You don't select it to 'move' because that is a different thing.

If you are advancing you are not doing the same thing as if you were moving. This is absolutely in the rules.

You have proven the point.

Claiming the "other side" proves your own point by their argument, never really helped anyone s online discussion, did it? Let's refrain from that.

torblind wrote:
Claiming the "other side" proves your own point by their argument, never really helped anyone s online discussion, did it? Let's refrain from that.

Claiming someone is doing something that needs refraining, when they're actually trying to show through logical explanation the sensible outcome of a discussion has never really helped anyone's online discussion has it? Let's refrain from that. Stop strawmanning. I'm showing him through his own understanding of the rules how the Solitaire cannot Blitz and Advance. It's exactly what YMDC is for, is it not?

E - Advancing is still very much a distinct and separate action from "moving". Note all the limitations imposed on the model if it chooses to advance instead of simply move.

Advancing means you move, correct?
Instead of that usual move, you can follow the blitz rules for how you Move
They are not mutually exclusive

It's very tricky to 3xplain such an obvious concept. So far all you've done is create non existent rules such as "normal move" being a defined in rules obj3ct, that cannot support your position.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
And how do you Advance? You select a unit to move and declare it's Advancing. This concept of a "normal" move (your point 1 above) doesn't exist in the rules in the way you're trying to invoke it. The only thing that matters is we have selected a unit to move.

You declare a unit is advancing, yes. You don't select it to 'move' because that is a different thing.

If you are advancing you are not doing the same thing as if you were moving. This is absolutely in the rules.

You have proven the point.

Right, I think I see the point you're making. However, if we treat the basic movement rules as a "normal move" and a Blitz as "not a normal move", which by your argument would preclude Advancing, we also end up not using any of the rules under "Moving" in the rules for a unit that uses Blitz, which leaves us not able to resolve the action at all because that section includes vital information about how we actually resolve a model's movement. The difference in opinion between the two sides seems to stem from the difference between a unit being selected to Move and a unit being selected to move.

The point in your second sentence is incorrect. The rules for Advancing absolutely require you to pick a unit you have selected to move - it states "When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase...". A Blitzing unit is moving (if it weren't we couldn't actually resolve the action since the rules that govern that are in the section titled "Moving") in the Movement phase so we can Advance with it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Advancing means you move, correct?
Instead of that usual move, you can follow the blitz rules for how you Move
They are not mutually exclusive

It's very tricky to 3xplain such an obvious concept. So far all you've done is create non existent rules such as "normal move" being a defined in rules obj3ct, that cannot support your position.

It's clearly a rules object because it's referenced in the Blitz rule itself. The Blitz rule doesn't state "Just change the movement characteristic to 12" + 2D6 lol", it specifically states you do this instead of the normal move action.

Yes, you physically move the model when you advance.

But this does not mean that you "move" the model as defined by the rules.

The rules clearly, like crystal clearly, define a difference between "Moving" and "Advancing". They have to, because otherwise we'd have people moving up to their movement characteristic, then moving again and adding D6" because they claim it is within the boundaries of the rules.

I've yet to see anyone explain in detail how you can justify both moving and advancing with the same model in the same movement phase. If you move you move. That is that. If you advance you advance. Advance must be declared before you move the model. If you Blitz you are opting to use the Blitz instead of the move. You cannot do both.

You're welcome to take it up with GW, but this would be my ruling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:
Right, I think I see the point you're making. However, if we treat the basic movement rules as a "normal move" and a Blitz as "not a normal move", which by your argument would preclude Advancing, we also end up not using any of the rules under "Moving" in the rules for a unit that uses Blitz, which leaves us not able to resolve the action at all because that section includes vital information about how we actually resolve a model's movement. The difference in opinion between the two sides seems to stem from the difference between a unit being selected to Move and a unit being selected to move.

Why do you believe we can't resolve the action? You resolve the action as defined except the movement characteristic is changed.

Slipspace wrote:
The point in your second sentence is incorrect. The rules for Advancing absolutely require you to pick a unit you have selected to move - it states "When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase...". A Blitzing unit is moving (if it weren't we couldn't actually resolve the action since the rules that govern that are in the section titled "Moving") in the Movement phase so we can Advance with it.

I think we both know it means "move" and not "move". Lol. What I mean is the rule is read thus; "When you pick a unit to physically move in the Movement phase you can instead opt to...."

Quote the full rule, for reference. It should become clear.

Of cours you "move" when you advance. If you are truly stating otherwise, then I can end up within 1" without declaring a charge - because I'm prohibited from doing so only while I am making a Move, and you are claiming, incredibly, that this is not a Move

A Normal Move dies not exist as a defined OBJECT. "normal move" , lacking capitalisation, means this is not a singular object, but a compound of words used in normal language until you hit a defined rule - such as move. The rules for Movement do not define a "Normal Move", this is not defined anywhere , so it dies not exist.

The rules for moving models allow you to declare an advance, which is defined as including a Move. This is undeniable, using actual rules

As it includes a standard, or "normal", Move, I am able to "instead of" taking that normal Move, use the Blitz rules.

This is all unarguable using rules as given.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Of cours you "move" when you advance. If you are truly stating otherwise, then I can end up within 1" without declaring a charge - because I'm prohibited from doing so only while I am making a Move, and you are claiming, incredibly, that this is not a Move

A Normal Move dies not exist as a defined OBJECT. "normal move" , lacking capitalisation, means this is not a singular object, but a compound of words used in normal language until you hit a defined rule - such as move. The rules for Movement do not define a "Normal Move", this is not defined anywhere , so it dies not exist.

The rules for moving models allow you to declare an advance, which is defined as including a Move. This is undeniable, using actual rules

As it includes a standard, or "normal", Move, I am able to "instead of" taking that normal Move, use the Blitz rules.

This is all unarguable using rules as given.

Well there's your problem - an Advance is not defined as including a Move. When you Advance you move the model up to the model's movement characteristic and you follow any associated rules, that is all. If you take a "normal move' you are not 'Advancing' because 'Advancing' is something very different with it's own criteria, restrictions and rules. You declare an advance before you move any models. You do not move models then decide to Advance. You do ONE OR THE OTHER (this is key).

So no, you're not able to advance and Blitz. Blitz changes my Move action. It does not change my Advance action.

This is going to get nowhere. Contact GW. To me, it's clear.

I do not have the rules for Solitaire, but what I found on another thread is this: "Blitz: Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the Solitaire, you can make a Blitz move with it. If you do so, add 2D6" to the model's Move characterisitic for this turn. In addition, the model's Attacks characteristic is increased to 10 for the rest of the turn. This ability may not be used if the model has been selected as the target of the Twilight Pathways psychic power in the previous Psychic phase."

"Instead of making a normal move with Solitaire, you can make a Blitz move... add 2D6" to the model's Move characteristic."

Now, "normal move" is not a term. It's not bold and it doesn't have a unique definition for Warhammer 40k's rules. "Normal move" is just referring to moving without using Blitz.

The rules for Advance says: "When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all models in the unit for that Movement phase. A unit that Advances can’t shoot or charge later that turn."

So, what Solitaire can do is use its Blitz rule to add 2D6" to its Move characteristic. You then take this new number, the new Move characteristic that it has for this single turn, and you use it for your Advance. You've picked that model to move in the movement phase, you declare that it will Advance. You roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristic of that model.

 Kharneth wrote:
Now, "normal move" is not a term. It's not bold and it doesn't have a unique definition for Warhammer 40k's rules. "Normal move" is just referring to moving without using Blitz.

Makes no difference given the context of the rules whether the term is bold, in caps or not. A "normal move" action must exist because it is the way we move our models. Making an "Advance" is the "unusual move" action. Both are actions we can take in the movement phase.

Look at it another way - if you elect to Blitz you have (by definition) elected to move. You cannot elect to move and advance, you do one or the other. You literally cannot move then go, I'm going to now advance. You must state you're doing it (advance) before you move. If you say you're advancing with your Solitaire, you cannot then Blitz (because Blitz is a variation of the "normal move"). Once you have elected to Blitz you have forgone your ability to advance.

Has anyone passed this on to GW for clarification? I don't think we're going to solve this on here.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
Now, "normal move" is not a term. It's not bold and it doesn't have a unique definition for Warhammer 40k's rules. "Normal move" is just referring to moving without using Blitz.

Makes no difference given the context of the rules whether the term is bold, in caps or not. A "normal move" action must exist because it is the way we move our models. Making an "Advance" is the "unusual move" action. Both are actions we can take in the movement phase.

Look at it another way - if you elect to Blitz you have (by definition) elected to move. You cannot elect to move and advance, you do one or the other. You literally cannot move then go, I'm going to now advance. You must state you're doing it (advance) before you move. If you say you're advancing with your Solitaire, you cannot then Blitz (because Blitz is a variation of the "normal move"). Once you have elected to Blitz you have forgone your ability to advance.

Has anyone passed this on to GW for clarification? I don't think we're going to solve this on here.

Yes, you can. The ONLY way to Advance is to move. Read your rulebook.

Advancing is a supplement to your movement, not a replacement. I quoted the rules for Advance above or you can look in the rules, which are free online.