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deltaKshatriya wrote: Been reading for a while, haven't contributed, but I had to make this statement.
Dom't worry, you will be back next week making tge exact same statement, as we have done this at least two times before on Obama 'doing' it.
I tried. I figure there must be a breaking point somewhere, hence why I haven't given up yet.
True, the issue is that it usually breaks the thread first sadly.
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
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Illegally crossing the border isn't the same as being cought speeding too.
Yeah, the recommended sentence is a lot lighter. Let me ask you, whemb, do you know why the average boarder jumper is given time served? Because typically they've already served MORE than the maximum sentence while awaiting trial.
Interesting op ed by former FBI director William Webster:
deltaKshatriya wrote: Been reading for a while, haven't contributed, but I had to make this statement.
Dom't worry, you will be back next week making tge exact same statement, as we have done this at least two times before on Obama 'doing' it.
I tried. I figure there must be a breaking point somewhere, hence why I haven't given up yet.
You'd be wrong. Or rather, we'd get the thread locked before we reached that point. Polite arguments don't work well with the problem posters. They always either just vanish and let it blow over so they can post the same crap again later while pret3nding it hasn't already be refuted, use whataboutism to deflect, or both (I.e. the false "but Bush and Obama did it!"/ "both parties are equally bad"/"But her emails!" Even when those have been proven false)
DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
We have traffic laws for a reason, too. I'm far less comfortable with the people doing fifty in a thirty-five mile an hour zone than a family fleeing gang violence or domestic abuse becoming my new neighbor.
Why not take the speeder's kids away? Surely they're putting them in danger if they're in the car. If your goal is to deter lawbreakers, regardless of the cruelty or appropriateness of the punishment, then why not take the children of anyone who breaks the speed limit, put them on a plane, and then lose any records you have of them and make them pay for a DNA test and airfare to maybe get them back months later?
Why is this 'reasoning' only being applied to people crossing the border, not speeding or shoplifting or public intoxication?
Because we don't treat all misdemeanor nor all felony the same.
The goal of laws is to deter them from breaking them yes?
One way to deter people thinking of crossing the border is that you'll get separated from your family until adjudication happens.
The only way to deter people from making that trip is to be crueler than the circumstances they are fleeing.
This is unacceptable.
Where were you when this happened under Obama? Bush?
Also, one way to deter speeding is to take your kids. Again. Why are we not doing that, besides 'different laws are treated differently', which is a total non-answer?
So, you think we should punish misdemeaners the same way? o.O
This is a Trump-era policy, for which they had to dismantle a highly-successful program designed to keep track of people who had crossed the border, and that is still not an answer. What reasoning do you have for making 'we take your kids away' as a deterrent for one misdemeanor and not another, if the only goal is to 'deter' the crime?
Spinner wrote: This is a Trump-era policy, for which they had to dismantle a highly-successful program designed to keep track of people who had crossed the border, and that is still not an answer. What reasoning do you have for making 'we take your kids away' as a deterrent for one misdemeanor and not another, if the only goal is to 'deter' the crime?
The centipede has pushed 'illegal panic' and not 'speeding related deaths' as the thing to be scared of. "NASCAR good, browns bad"
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
Asked in an interview with Fox News anchor Tucker Carlson why the U.S. should send troops to defend a small country such as Montenegro if it were attacked, Trump replied: “I understand what you’re saying, I’ve asked the same question. Montenegro is a tiny country with very strong people. They are very aggressive people, they may get aggressive, and congratulations, you’re in World War III. But that’s the way it was set up.
Spoiler:
it's almost uncanny really.
.. are we sure the entire Presidency thus far isn't an elaborate prank by Baron Cohen and/or Andy Kaufman ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 18:13:01
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Asked in an interview with Fox News anchor Tucker Carlson why the U.S. should send troops to defend a small country such as Montenegro if it were attacked, Trump replied: “I understand what you’re saying, I’ve asked the same question. Montenegro is a tiny country with very strong people. They are very aggressive people, they may get aggressive, and congratulations, you’re in World War III. But that’s the way it was set up.
This perfectly sums up what Trump understands about NATO. Whoever is in charge of being Dora the Explorer in the White House better get some cue cards made to visually explain what defensive means.
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
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Maybe he is just following the leader? Putin was pretty pissed Montenegro joined NATO, got to score them browny points!
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
2000 pts Imperial Fists
6000 pts Disciples of Fate
3500 pts Peridia Prime
2500 pts Prophets of Fate
Lizardmen 3000 points Tlaxcoatl Temple-City
Tomb Kings 1500 points Sekhra (RIP)
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
You are assuming that certain people are able and willing to change their minds, when it turns out that what they have been fed by the centipede, is at best misleading and at worst false.
I felt it my duty to try at least once. I can see that the person in question has a history in this forum.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have seen this claim being propagated by people who identify as liberals as well, so I figured a post is worthwhile at least.
The main difference is the Trump admin was taking children away from parents who are being prosecuted criminally for offenses that often were once considered civil violations.
I'm not saying Obama/Bush instituted the same zero tolerance policy as Trump administration did.... did I? I'm not conflating the two. Trump's policy is distinctly different. The zero-tolerance policy put the adults in jail for crossing the borders. The side-effect of that is the the kids had to be separated, because it's insane to ALSO put those kids in jail too.
What I should be clearer is that under Bush/Obama... when illegal immigrants break the laws (other than the crossing itself... ie, assault/rape/whatever) during the crossing/apprehension, they do separate the kids as the law states that they can't be held in the same detention center. It does happen. Just like citizens committing certain crimes may have their kids taken away from them.
What Bush/obama admin did was to mitigate that was to expand the detention of immigrant families by adding more facilities that can house the families (ie, not the jail) where they could wait for their administrative cases to be processed.
Even then, immigrant advocates slammed both administrations for locking up families and obviously for poor conditions in the detention facilities.
Fast forward to now, the word had gotten out before Trump became president that anyone who tried to cross the border with a minor would almost certainly be “given immunity from prosecution.” We've had major spikes in minor illegal immigrants,thinking that they're the "ticket" for staying... so, how do you deter that?
Furthermore, by policy, I'm "okay" with separating the families when caught illegally crossing the border. In practice, that means that the government ought to reunite the children with sponsors within the U.S. or relatives/close family friends. If officials can’t find a place, then the children need to be placed into temporary foster care or held in facilities until their cases is adjudicated. I'm not happy about the poor state of these facilies and I do WANT that to be addressed. If that's not feasible, then by all means drop the policy and try something else.
Also, I'm open to criticism that the Trump admin didn't think this through or provided more resources to handle the consequences of their zero-tolerance policy...
Hell, I'm open to the idea that all of this is a bad idea or even the continuation of the Bush/Obama policies are good/bad... but, all this hang wringing over "Trump is kidnapping babies!" or "you hate abortion but are okay with this? HYPOCRITE!" makes my brain hurt.
Hey whembly, don't feel you have to go out an explain yourself to most of these guys. I see all the snarky and name calling that's gone on here while the Mods just sit back and watch (feels REALLY familiar). Peeps are going to have their opinions regardless of your arguments because they hate Trump and will never change their mind. I would just blow most of them off.
You are assuming that certain people are able and willing to change their minds, when it turns out that what they have been fed by the centipede, is at best misleading and at worst false.
I felt it my duty to try at least once. I can see that the person in question has a history in this forum.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have seen this claim being propagated by people who identify as liberals as well, so I figured a post is worthwhile at least.
The main difference is the Trump admin was taking children away from parents who are being prosecuted criminally for offenses that often were once considered civil violations.
I'm not saying Obama/Bush instituted the same zero tolerance policy as Trump administration did.... did I? I'm not conflating the two. Trump's policy is distinctly different. The zero-tolerance policy put the adults in jail for crossing the borders. The side-effect of that is the the kids had to be separated, because it's insane to ALSO put those kids in jail too.
You most certainly were trying to. You were trying to equate any separation of children under Bush or Obama as the same thing as what trump did. classic whataboutism! Just because you didn't explicitly say it doesn't mean that wasn't your goal.
What I should be clearer is that under Bush/Obama... when illegal immigrants break the laws (other than the crossing itself... ie, assault/rape/whatever) during the crossing/apprehension, they do separate the kids as the law states that they can't be held in the same detention center. It does happen. Just like citizens committing certain crimes may have their kids taken away from them.
And that's the huge difference. The current administration is locking people up and separating the kids as soon as they can. They're also not keeping any track of it which makes it even worse.
Fast forward to now, the word had gotten out before Trump became president that anyone who tried to cross the border with a minor would almost certainly be “given immunity from prosecution.” We've had major spikes in minor illegal immigrants,thinking that they're the "ticket" for staying... so, how do you deter that?
Maybe in a more humane way? More staff/places for them to apply legally? No wait, you're right, the only solution is kidnapping the kids and using them as political hostages.
Furthermore, by policy, I'm "okay" with separating the families when caught illegally crossing the border. In practice, that means that the government ought to reunite the children with sponsors within the U.S. or relatives/close family friends. If officials can’t find a place, then the children need to be placed into temporary foster care or held in facilities until their cases is adjudicated.
And yet, that's not what's happening, and you know it. This isn't whem's dream land. This is reality. Wishing something was done better does not make what is currently happening ok.
I'm not happy about the poor state of these facilies and I do WANT that to be addressed. If that's not feasible, then by all means drop the policy and try something else.
And there's the token criticism. Everything else you've posted is all about how it's ok, and it's not trump's fault they're doing this horrid thing, the immigrants deserve it after all.
Also, I'm open to criticism that the Trump admin didn't think this through or provided more resources to handle the consequences of their zero-tolerance policy...
Hell, I'm open to the idea that all of this is a bad idea or even the continuation of the Bush/Obama policies are good/bad...
How good of you to be open to the idea that maybe this policy was a bad idea. How... non-critical of you of this current administration.
but, all this hang wringing over "Trump is kidnapping babies!" or "you hate abortion but are okay with this? HYPOCRITE!" makes my brain hurt.
Except you argue against abortion, but don't seem to place any value on the resulting offspring's life, comfort, or happiness, and trump's administration is kidnapping kids with no way of reuniting them. And If your brain hurts, maybe stop trying to justify your hypocrisy and it'll stop.
KTG17 wrote: Hey whembly, don't feel you have to go out an explain yourself to most of these guys. I see all the snarky and name calling that's gone on here while the Mods just sit back and watch (feels REALLY familiar). Peeps are going to have their opinions regardless of your arguments because they hate Trump and will never change their mind. I would just blow most of them off.
Or, his positions are just ludicrous and trump is actually doing bad things, which makes people hate trump and those who shill for trump.
Along with his constant whataboutism/deflection.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 18:30:22
DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
whembly wrote: I'm not happy about the poor state of these facilies and I do WANT that to be addressed. If that's not feasible, then by all means drop the policy and try something else.
How long are we supposed to wait to do this?
To me, this was a "Plan this before starting policy" level consideration. But I'm not here to kidnap children and use them as leverage against people unlike our current administration.
Hey, maybe we need a ban on this administrations policies for three months so we can "Figure things out".
This wasn't a policy, it was an act of wanton cruelty. Without even discussing the whole violation of asylum seekers or our own citizens rights. This policy is indefensible, it's execution has been horrific beyond even the scope of the initial concept.
You should be a bit more than not happy. Because this is what's going to be used to batter down your positions for the next decade.
Or, his positions are just ludicrous and trump is actually doing bad things, which makes people hate trump and those who shill for trump.
Along with his constant whataboutism/deflection.
Yeah and all those noble and correct positions everyone else has makes them all better people because rather than going out to do anything about these issues, they are just banging on the keyboard everyday acting more superior when in fact they might as well be part of the problem for not doing more. I love it. Doesn't really matter what anyone says on here yet everyone shows up everyday to argue and act superior. Its a riot.
Too bad we all didn't figure out a way to resolve the immigration issue decades ago so it wasn't there for Trump to screw up. Oh wait can't say that, that means most of us would be taking a share in the blame.
"If you had re-painted the house like we asked you to, maybe we wouldn't have had to get Trump to burn it down!"
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
So, feel free to post evidence to the contrary... But since the zero-tolerance policy was announced, hasn't illegal immigration stayed basically the same? Meaning it didn't work?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
JNAProductions wrote: So, feel free to post evidence to the contrary... But since the zero-tolerance policy was announced, hasn't illegal immigration stayed basically the same? Meaning it didn't work?
Border-jumping is down and has been trending down for years. This awful, awful Trump policy hasn't had time to effect stats yet.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
The point of the Trump policy is to demonstrate hatred for brown-skinned people.
I am happy to say that it was so blatantly vile that most of the US public have rejected it.
As to why GOP members generally suck up what Trump hands down to them, a characteristic of the conservative mind is respect for authority, so support for the leader's message is kind of built into the party's psychology.
Kilkrazy wrote: The point of the Trump policy is to demonstrate hatred for brown-skinned people.
Prove it.
Well the central park 5, saying mexicans are infesting our country, calling african countries (predominately black) shitholes while in the same sentence calling norway (predominantly white) great
The main difference is the Trump admin was taking children away from parents who are being prosecuted criminally for offenses that often were once considered civil violations.
And from people who didn't break any laws at all Whemb. OVER A THOUSAND OF THEM IN TWO MONTHS.
Tell me of your good American Justice, Whemb, when innocent people can be imprisoned in droves and placed in camps without ever seeing a judge. I can think of other times that things like that have been done before, and good upright people stood around and justified it as being 'the law.'
Just remember, the Nazis made Jews illegal aliens too, before they gassed them. That was part of the plan, to make them 'uncitizens' before they really got going.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/18 19:44:21
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
The main difference is the Trump admin was taking children away from parents who are being prosecuted criminally for offenses that often were once considered civil violations.
And from people who didn't break any laws at all Whemb. OVER A THOUSAND OF THEM IN TWO MONTHS.
Tell me of your good American Justice, Whemb, when innocent people can be imprisoned in droves and placed in camps without ever seeing a judge. I can think of other times that things like that have been done before, and good upright people stood around and justified it as being 'the law.'
Can you provide citation that those who didn't break the laws got separated? I'm assuming those are the asylum cases.... right?
Just remember, the Nazis made Jews illegal aliens too, before they gassed them. That was part of the plan, to make them 'uncitizens' before they really got going.
I think Japanese Internment is probably a better analogy than German concentration camps, to be honest.
I’m pretty sure Roberts knew what he was doing when he overturned the constitutionality of these internment camps last month. The SCOTUS may be seeing the writing on the wall on this issue.
Is the administration separating asylum-seeking families who enter at ports of entry?
Yes, despite claims to the contrary. On June 17, DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen took to Twitter to defend family separation, saying, “For those seeking asylum at ports of entry, we have continued the policy from previous administrations and will only separate if the child is in danger, there is no custodial relationship between 'family' members, or if the adult has broken a law.”
In case Secretary Nielsen forgot, she’s currently a defendant in our class action lawsuit, where we represent families who entered at ports of entry to seek asylum and had their children taken away.
Ms. L, a Congolese mother who sought asylum at a port of entry, had her seven-year-old daughter taken away from her for four months. Immigration authorities made no meaningful attempt to verify their relationship during that time, only doing so after we filed our lawsuit.
Mirian G, a mother from Honduras, came to the U.S. with her young son on Feb. 20, 2018. She presented herself to immigration authorities and sought asylum, committing no crime. During her interview, Mirian provided immigration officers with several identification documents for her child which listed her as his mother. The next morning, Border Patrol agents took away her 18-month-old son with no explanation. She did not see him again for two months
People who present themselves at U.S. borders are allowed to claim asylum. The administration is taking a stronger stance on this, as part of President Trump's attempts to limit immigration to the USA.
Sessions has railed against the asylum system. He said the system is abused by immigrants and "dirty immigration lawyers."
In many cases, the government denies asylum claims and treats those cases as criminal. This leads to more children being separated from their families.
In a call with reporters Tuesday, Trump officials said human smugglers abuse U.S. law on asylum, as well as policies on how to handle families crossing the border together. They called on Congress to change the law to reduce illegal immigration and child smuggling.
"The children smuggling trade would be shut down if we could close these loopholes," Miller said. "We need to change the law so that families arriving illegally can be sent home swiftly."
The American Civil Liberties Union sued the administration in February on behalf of asylum seekers in California who had their children taken from them. A federal judge is likely to rule on that case in the coming weeks.
O.o
What, Whemb, shocked that the Pres is pulling a page from the man who's book sits on Trump's nightstand (literally according to his wife)? One of the arguments that hte nazis used to justify it was the same one you're making now Whem: they're illegal aliens, we can do to them whatever we want!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 20:08:55
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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