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 Just Tony wrote:
So your argument against can be distilled to the "Pence's Grand Imperial Army of Christ taking people to the FEMA... er, I mean LGBTQ+ Death Camps" conspiracy theory? Good to know

No, it can be distilled to his awful policies on the subject. The fact that he doesn't advocate "LGBT death camps" does not mean that he has good positions, it just means he isn't the right-wing straw man presented instead of the actual left-wing position.

Pence and Mother raised funds for 'troubled teen' camps, a sketchy-as-hell industry in general and not great in his particular choice of programs.

Because nothing says 'death camp conspiracy' like boosting for an industry that can legally abduct your child to make them Pray the Gay Away.

Thankfully we have two whole other branches of government that can stop that if it indeed heads that way. Given how I actually live in Indiana, saw how the whole fiasco with Memories Pizza went down, AND know what the intent of the bill is and EVERYTHING that it covers (Including tons of non-Christian issues)I don't think we're talking anywhere NEAR kidnapping and Pray the Gay Away. However, if he attains the Presidency and goes off the rails enough to even ATTEMPT it, it'd be an instantaneous impeachment at the very least, so I will double down that his fiscal record is more than enough to support him on.

Sure.

Any sort of discrepancy from the office of the Preaident would be reined in by Congress. They'll jump right on legalized child abductions, too.

I buy that.

So you're saying Congress and through litigation the SCOTUS would NOT step in for a human rights violation like that? Where the hell is the disconnect here?

 Just Tony wrote:
So you're saying Congress and through litigation the SCOTUS would NOT step in for a human rights violation like that? Where the hell is the disconnect here?

They already haven't, or have you missed the current child prison debacle somehow?

How many children are we still holding hostage?

What makes you think Congress would stand up to Pence any more than they stand up to Trump?

 Just Tony wrote:
So you're saying Congress and through litigation the SCOTUS would NOT step in for a human rights violation like that? Where the hell is the disconnect here?

I mean, given the fact that quite a few republicans support those human rights violations and call it "rights of the parents", no, I don't have any confidence that they would step in. And court cases take a long time to resolve.

Not to mention that Trump is packing the federal court system at all levels with right-wingers..

 Just Tony wrote:
Thankfully we have two whole other branches of government that can stop that if it indeed heads that way. Given how I actually live in Indiana, saw how the whole fiasco with Memories Pizza went down, AND know what the intent of the bill is and EVERYTHING that it covers (Including tons of non-Christian issues)I don't think we're talking anywhere NEAR kidnapping and Pray the Gay Away. However, if he attains the Presidency and goes off the rails enough to even ATTEMPT it, it'd be an instantaneous impeachment at the very least, so I will double down that his fiscal record is more than enough to support him on.

I never said he would start sending people to camps, mearly that he has supported (albeit indirectly) gay conversation therapy and has been steadfastly anti lgbtq. And he won't do gak about the actual causes of our deficit because that would mean daring to touch SS, bloated military budgets, waste in government contracts ect. Which no Republican will ever touch. He'll just gut social services and cut taxes for the wealthy and then call it a day.

 Just Tony wrote:
Thankfully we have two whole other branches of government that can stop that if it indeed heads that way.

That is indeed how the system is originally set up.
It was certainly presented as such during the previous administration.

Now? Not so much.

Anybody in Congress daring to question Emperor Trump are labelled traitors and back stabbers in the right-wing media like Fox, and judges are routinely accused of being partisan and biased (especially if they are, or have been appointed by, a Democrat).

Wolfblade wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
So you're saying Congress and through litigation the SCOTUS would NOT step in for a human rights violation like that? Where the hell is the disconnect here?

They already haven't, or have you missed the current child prison debacle somehow?

Spinner wrote:How many children are we still holding hostage?

What makes you think Congress would stand up to Pence any more than they stand up to Trump?

Ohhhhhhhhhhh, the border separation thing. I thought you were still on the conversion camp thing. Honest mistake. See, I guess taken into custody means kidnapping or being held hostage to some. That's where I lost you guys/girls/zvee. I'll get my vocab right as far as this thread goes, but leave it to common sense when I discuss it in the real world.

Peregrine wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
So you're saying Congress and through litigation the SCOTUS would NOT step in for a human rights violation like that? Where the hell is the disconnect here?

I mean, given the fact that quite a few republicans support those human rights violations and call it "rights of the parents", no, I don't have any confidence that they would step in. And court cases take a long time to resolve.

It'd happen like this:

PENCE: Hey, we're gonna take the gays away and pray them straight!
ACLU: The hell you say!
CONGRESS: There's no way in hell we'll authorize that.

It doesn't even make it to the "kidnapping" portion of it. For argument's sake, lets say it does, a suspension of activities pending investigation mandate from ANY judge would be enough to stop it.

Kilkrazy wrote:Not to mention that Trump is packing the federal court system at all levels with right-wingers..

Packing them, despite the massive number of liberal judges appointed by Obama who've been striking down any and every thing that they feel is a hotbed lib issue? Try harder, seriously.

Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Thankfully we have two whole other branches of government that can stop that if it indeed heads that way. Given how I actually live in Indiana, saw how the whole fiasco with Memories Pizza went down, AND know what the intent of the bill is and EVERYTHING that it covers (Including tons of non-Christian issues)I don't think we're talking anywhere NEAR kidnapping and Pray the Gay Away. However, if he attains the Presidency and goes off the rails enough to even ATTEMPT it, it'd be an instantaneous impeachment at the very least, so I will double down that his fiscal record is more than enough to support him on.

I never said he would start sending people to camps, mearly that he has supported (albeit indirectly) gay conversation therapy and has been steadfastly anti lgbtq. And he won't do gak about the actual causes of our deficit because that would mean daring to touch SS, bloated military budgets, waste in government contracts ect. Which no Republican will ever touch. He'll just gut social services and cut taxes for the wealthy and then call it a day.

I think you don't give him enough credit, and once again having seen his fiscal work in action in my state, I'm inclined to think that barring some absolute stupidity from Congress, he'd make some headway with the deficit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Thankfully we have two whole other branches of government that can stop that if it indeed heads that way.

That is indeed how the system is originally set up.
It was certainly presented as such during the previous administration.

Now? Not so much.

Anybody in Congress daring to question Emperor Trump are labelled traitors and back stabbers in the right-wing media like Fox, and judges are routinely accused of being partisan and biased (especially if they are, or have been appointed by, a Democrat).

Is this how you seriously see things in the US currently? Literally the entirety of the legislature is waiting on the first piece of hard evidence to cast him aside, and NOBODY wanted him as the candidate.


Also, thinking that 1/10th of the US media has that much clout is damn near laughable. ESPECIALLY if you think it'll dictate policy.

 skyth wrote:
It's interesting that she was murdered because she told a man to leave her alone while she was jogging. Of course, certain people latch on to the immigrant thing rather than the man committing violence against a woman for saying no.

THIS
especially once you learn that he was illegal by virtue of overstaying a visa, a wall wouldnt have done anything.

edit: turns out I was incorrect, he wasnt in country with an overstayed visa. I do still maintain that the wrong details are being focused on due to potential political advantage.

Literally EVERY news outlet, INCLUDING leftie rag Huffington Post, is reporting that this guy was in the country on false documents, not that he overstayed a visa. Where are you finding contradictory reporting?



Also, all the news sites that had this story when she was simply missing front paged constantly have pushed this sucker to the lower depths ever since the culprit was revealed. Kind of weird, huh?

So I saw something that I need clarified; did Verizon really throttle the fire brigade’s data during that wildfire? Because I’m struggling to understand why they thought that would be acceptable and how they expected to get away with it.

Yes, they did. It was allegedly a 'customer service mistake'.

 skyth wrote:
Yes, they did. It was allegedly a 'customer service mistake'.

“Throne Of Lies” springs to mind.

Never attribute to conspiracy what could be attributed to incompetence.

The likely explanation is that Verizon have a computer which decides to throttle your internet, a human never looks at it, and no-one ever thought of the possible problems.

Imagine the positive PR if Verizon could have announced they were providing additional free bandwidth to the emergency services to assist public safety in the current crisis.

 Just Tony wrote:
So you're saying Congress and through litigation the SCOTUS would NOT step in for a human rights violation like that? Where the hell is the disconnect here?

Putting three branches of government against each other so that they all keep watch on each other stops working when the three branches become friends instead.

So the current issue for the thread is that the Democrats will control Congress with enough of a majority to impeach Trump over the crimes discovered and prosecuted by the Mueller investigation but that there won’t be enough opposition in Congress to stop President Pence from using Federal agencies to mass kidnap LGBTQ children and take them to private sector gay conversion camps?
Wow, this thread gets incredibly crazy sometimes.

Prestor Jon wrote:
So the current issue for the thread is that the Democrats will control Congress with enough of a majority to impeach Trump over the crimes discovered and prosecuted by the Mueller investigation but that there won’t be enough opposition in Congress to stop President Pence from using Federal agencies to mass kidnap LGBTQ children and take them to private sector gay conversion camps?
Wow, this thread gets incredibly crazy sometimes.

Nah, that's the strawman, most of us just assume Pence will only last if republicans decide to sacrifice Trump while maintaining relative control. He's white house hide and seek champion with how well he keeps his head down, but he's hardly clear of much of this, he was brought in by a now campaign crime felon.

Of course if he was put into power, I have little doubt he'd happily strip what ever protections LGBT and non-religious folks he can get a hold of and do his level best to restore conversion therapy camps in the us in the name of religious freedom.

That said, you do know what you're phrasing as insane is a bit of an industry these days right? Enough that people were upset when states outlawed the practice?

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:
So the current issue for the thread is that the Democrats will control Congress with enough of a majority to impeach Trump over the crimes discovered and prosecuted by the Mueller investigation but that there won’t be enough opposition in Congress to stop President Pence from using Federal agencies to mass kidnap LGBTQ children and take them to private sector gay conversion camps?
Wow, this thread gets incredibly crazy sometimes.

Nah, that's the strawman, most of us just assume Pence will only last if republicans decide to sacrifice Trump while maintaining relative control. He's white house hide and seek champion with how well he keeps his head down, but he's hardly clear of much of this, he was brought in by a now campaign crime felon.

Of course if he was put into power, I have little doubt he'd happily strip what ever protections LGBT and non-religious folks he can get a hold of and do his level best to restore conversion therapy camps in the us in the name of religious freedom.

That said, you do know what you're phrasing as insane is a bit of an industry these days right? Enough that people were upset when states outlawed the practice?

No, I’m pretty confident that there isn’t a single state or federal agency that kidnapped LGBTQ kids and took them to gay conversion camps.
Conversion camps have existed for years, it’s difficult for me to understand how parents get so desperate that they use them but people will believe all kinds of stuff. My wife likes to watch that Affliction show on Netflix and it’s a real eye opener to see just how many fake medical science bs artists are out there ready to take shockingly large amounts of money from people for utterly inane “treatments.”
A fool and his money are soon parted.

 Just Tony wrote:


Ohhhhhhhhhhh, the border separation thing. I thought you were still on the conversion camp thing. Honest mistake. See, I guess taken into custody means kidnapping or being held hostage to some. That's where I lost you guys/girls/zvee. I'll get my vocab right as far as this thread goes, but leave it to common sense when I discuss it in the real world.

I'm struggling to think of a more common-sense, real-world definition than kidnapping for 'we're taking your child under false pretenses, shipping them across the country, and then destroy records saying 'that was your kid' while we go on TV and make smirking allusions to how we wouldn't 'have' to do this if we built a stupid, useless monument to our own ego and xenophobia'.

Let me know if you think you can find a better way to describe it.

With regards to Pence, 'troubled teen' camps, and conversion therapy - no, I'm not going down the route of 'FEMA death camps in half a year they're gonna round us up'. That wasn't a good look for the right from 2008-2016, I don't see any reason to continue it. Pence would take the kinder, gentler right-wing US fundamentalist conservative approach and make it easier for companies he had ties to do handle the whole approach. I'd like to say that the sort of abuse that takes place in the troubled teen industry is shocking, but honestly, it's about exactly what you'd expect. Most have extremely limited qualifications for their counselors, and yes, they can legally 'abduct' a child if their parents sign them up; here's a FAQ from one of the services they use to 'transport teens' using nice gentle reassuring corporate-speak to tell you that you shouldn't tell your kid where they're going and that, if necessary, their staff is trained in 'temporary restraint'.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Never attribute to conspiracy what could be attributed to incompetence.

The likely explanation is that Verizon have a computer which decides to throttle your internet, a human never looks at it, and no-one ever thought of the possible problems.

Imagine the positive PR if Verizon could have announced they were providing additional free bandwidth to the emergency services to assist public safety in the current crisis.

Actually the firefighters got un-throttled by accepting a huge increase in what they were paying a couple hours later...

That's outrageous!

How on Earth can it be justified?

The fire brigade won't have any money left to pay their increased rates of water bill.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That's outrageous!

How on Earth can it be justified?

The fire brigade won't have any money left to pay their increased rates of water bill.

Because capitalism. Money is more important than lives.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Not to mention that Trump is packing the federal court system at all levels with right-wingers..

Election has consequences... said by some rando.

 whembly wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Not to mention that Trump is packing the federal court system at all levels with right-wingers..

Election has consequences... said by some rando.

Which means voters have also responsibilities ?

So, Duncan Hunter used to be my rep when I lived in CA, at least for a while. The dude has had allegations of spending issues for years, removed his wife as campaign manager over it IIRC 5 years ago, never stopped paying her though, brought her back on again later, and now after being hit with a laundry list of charges over multiple years for things like thousands spent on videogames and campaign trips funding personal family Italian vacations, his defense is "my wife handled the money"

You're going to jail dude, and throwing your wife under the bus isn't going to save you.

It's interesting to note that, in the space of a few days, the first two congressmen to endorse Trump, Trump's personal lawyer, and Trump's campaign chairman have been indicted, pleaded out on, or been convicted of, felony charges.

#draintheswamp indeed

And yet...there are still people who truly believe these are THE BEST PEOPLE and would vote for them all again in a heartbeat without a second thought.

 Vaktathi wrote:
So, Duncan Hunter used to be my rep when I lived in CA, at least for a while. The dude has had allegations of spending issues for years, removed his wife as campaign manager over it IIRC 5 years ago, never stopped paying her though, brought her back on again later, and now after being hit with a laundry list of charges over multiple years for things like thousands spent on videogames and campaign trips funding personal family Italian vacations, his defense is "my wife handled the money"

You're going to jail dude, and throwing your wife under the bus isn't going to save you.

It's interesting to note that, in the space of a few days, the first two congressmen to endorse Trump, Trump's personal lawyer, and Trump's campaign chairman have been indicted, pleaded out on, or been convicted of, felony charges.

#draintheswamp indeed

And yet...there are still people who truly believe these are THE BEST PEOPLE and would vote for them all again in a heartbeat without a second thought.

I did see a statistic recently saying that a significantly higher percentage of Trump's campaign staff are criminals, compared to immigrants...