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Ice_can wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Casual space marine 40k died with the IG codex.

Stop playing marines and join the xeno's IG arn't have as scary with a viable codex.

I play Tyranids.

Ice_can wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Casual space marine 40k died with the IG codex.

Stop playing marines and join the xeno's IG arn't have as scary with a viable codex.

Sure, send me the money and I will do that.

I like that GW is making money, companies do erratic stuff when they are in the red. I hope they will invest some of that money in to people for their design and testing teams. Also, although this I know from being told so, so it maybe wrong, GW in 80 seems to be rapid fire puting out books and armies. More stuff made, means more stuff bought, so it is natural that more money is earned. I just hope that in w40k year two, when they slow down with new armies, the sales will stay high, and not just suddenly drop. Because it would mean GW games sell, because of impulse buyers . This maybe good for the company, but not very good for people actually wanting to play the game.

That depends a bit on what they do to keep up the pace. The 40k pace specifically hasn't been as fast as it sometimes feels. Being able to balance it out with Sigmar releases, particularly with the second edition shaking off a lot of the baggage of the initial launch will help. The ability in the past year to plug the gaps with releases for Necromunda, Blood Bowl, and Shadespire has also kept the pace up without putting any pressure on 40k.

 Marmatag wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Casual space marine 40k died with the IG codex.

Stop playing marines and join the xeno's IG arn't have as scary with a viable codex.

I play Tyranids.

Then you really should have the tools to be able to play against IG.
I'm not going to say that the IG codex didn't get undercosted widely but the codex's that have followed seem a lot closer in power creep than the locked in marine statline/points cost codex's.

I remember in the dark days of 6th to mid 7th and before AoS when GW's financials weren't so flash. The nay sayers were quick to jump on them as evidence of a dying company and dead game.

The game is as playable as it has been for a long time (I've played since 3rd ed), and even if it isn't, there are now re-balancing mechanisms in place to nerf and buff things the community thinks are unbalanced. There has never been anything like this sort of feedback before. Hell there hasn't really even been a 'community' as such for the longest time either.

No its not perfect, no one has ever said that AFAIK. But its a massive leap forward even if you only consider the future potential of GW's changed attitude towards rules and balance. And GW are being suitably rewarded.

With 8th they made a great ruleset and a lot of new releases, stands to reason that they were rewarded for it. They invested a lot, risked a lot and won.

The only problem with the game is that the most played faction is among the weakest right now, so there is a general feel that the game is unbalanced, while this is the best state the game has ever been. Yes, SM are underpowered, but it turns out that there are dozens other faction which are on equal ground. In previous edition you could count on one hand the factions who could compete, and usually that was with a single list.

 Marmatag wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Casual space marine 40k died with the IG codex.

Stop playing marines and join the xeno's IG arn't have as scary with a viable codex.

I play Tyranids.

Obviously, there are going to be top and bottom tier armies (nobody is pretending 40k has perfect balance). But watch videos like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bmmwQkoD2s and try to say there isn't a diverse meta where even in the most competitive settings many armies cant do well. Especially if you aren't trying to win GTs every weekend you should be able to have fun close games with almost any book (GK excluded from this statement). Seems like many people are able to take all different types of armies to top spots.

It's also nice that IF your army is lower tier, the way detachments work make it a lot easier to move towards something stronger if you're so inclined without needing to completely abandoning your preferred army.

As a Dakka discussion grows longer, the probability of a "Space Marines are garbage" discussion approaches 1.

meleti wrote:
As a Dakka discussion grows longer, the probability of a "Space Marines are garbage" discussion approaches 1.

Guillimen's Law?

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Is 8th edition a financial success? Yes. It is.

Does that mean it’s above scrutiny and criticism? No.

Financial success does not equal good. It never has and never will. Justin bieber is one of the most successful artists in the world, he also produces fething terrible music, fight me.

I want GW to do well, I really do. I love 40k and I want it to be around for as long as I am. But success is a process, by ignoring gaping flaws in a game and ignoring blatant mistakes and oversights by a design team who gets payed to do this for a living, you are contributing to mediocrity.

Is 8th the worst game ever? No. (AoS is). But it’s by far from the best, and I think there is lots of room for improvement. Financial statements will not convince me otherwise.

There’s also the fact that there is more to the upswing in profits than simply dropping a new edition. They also removed their old CEO and replaced him with someone who seems to be more in touch with reality. They released several new armies and releases for armies, brought back speciality games, licensed their IP out to various video game franchises, re entered the competitive gaming scene, started doing market research, and created an online presence. These are not insignificant changes that also contributed positively to their financial situation.

So please, put down the koolaid.

Dakka in a nutshell. Totally ignore the evidence otherwise, and then trash on a game system they probably do not play. Honestly I have more fun playing AoS then 40k. The shooting phase for some armies in 40k is just......uggh.

Dakka in a nutshell. Totally ignore the evidence otherwise, and then trash on a game system they probably do not play. Honestly I have more fun playing AoS then 40k. The shooting phase for some armies in 40k is just......uggh

What evidence did I ignore exactly?

Great, you enjoy AoS. My niece enjoys Treehouse TV. Should I campaign the Golden Globe Awards to have Bob the Builder nominated for best Drama?

And yeah, I have played AoS unfortunately. I think I might have to smash my skull in with a hammer a few times to be brain dead enough to enjoy that flaming garbage.

Don't go yelling about how pop music is the greatest just because you're too tone deaf to understand jazz.

Higher prices mean less units need moved to show profit, correct?


If so, I can explain the success...

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Dakka in a nutshell. Totally ignore the evidence otherwise, and then trash on a game system they probably do not play. Honestly I have more fun playing AoS then 40k. The shooting phase for some armies in 40k is just......uggh

What evidence did I ignore exactly?

Great, you enjoy AoS. My niece enjoys Treehouse TV. Should I campaign the Golden Globe Awards to have Bob the Builder nominated for best Drama?

And yeah, I have played AoS unfortunately. I think I might have to smash my skull in with a hammer a few times to be brain dead enough to enjoy that flaming garbage.

Don't go yelling about how pop music is the greatest just because you're too tone deaf to understand jazz.

And get off my lawn!

 Just Tony wrote:
Higher prices mean less units need moved to show profit, correct?


If so, I can explain the success...

not unless GW trippled their prices in the last year

The absolute STATE of this thread.

It's almost like some of you are resentful that GW is doing well. Hell the start of the thread was coming close to people yelling "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE REEEEEEEEEE"

Good to see them rewarded for putting out a good product and engaging with their player base! I'm having fun wargaming again thanks to 40K 8th. Its not perfect, but that's OK. Perfect is the enemy of good enough. I'd rather play an imperfect game than admire a perfect game.

Heck, I even looked at AoS this evening at the FLGS...Does that make me a bad wargamer?

 Sim-Life wrote:
The absolute STATE of this thread.

It's almost like some of you are resentful that GW is doing well. Hell the start of the thread was coming close to people yelling "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE REEEEEEEEEE"

I am "resentful" that bad writing and ripping off customers is being rewarded.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
The absolute STATE of this thread.

It's almost like some of you are resentful that GW is doing well. Hell the start of the thread was coming close to people yelling "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE REEEEEEEEEE"

I am "resentful" that bad writing and ripping off customers is being rewarded.

In three tournaments I have had precisely one instance where my opponent and I scratched our heads and called the TO for a ruling. That's not bad at all. In dozens of FLGS pickup games I can't recall a rules dispute.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
The absolute STATE of this thread.

It's almost like some of you are resentful that GW is doing well. Hell the start of the thread was coming close to people yelling "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE REEEEEEEEEE"

I am "resentful" that bad writing and ripping off customers is being rewarded.

Psst...come close. No closer.
Those things are subjective.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
The absolute STATE of this thread.

It's almost like some of you are resentful that GW is doing well. Hell the start of the thread was coming close to people yelling "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE REEEEEEEEEE"

I am "resentful" that bad writing and ripping off customers is being rewarded.

Then don't buy their stuff?

Vote with your dollars. If GW was producing things that nobody wanted, they wouldn't sell, and they wouldn't have financial success. Prior to 8th, GW's fanbase was not so great that they would be able to call 8th a financial success if they didn't bring in new people. The fact that they have been bringing in new people shows that new people are saying 'Y'know, this is expensive, but it looks like enough fun that I'll give it a shot anyway', and while some of those new people figure that 'no, this isn't for me', there are enough that are going 'hey, I like this thing, I'll buy more of it.'

That's how they're measuring their success. The community efforts have really put a halt on a lot of the grognarding that 40k is rife with as well. By providing people with news and community articles, a lot of the vitriol (as we see in this thread) is kept... well, here, in this forum, where it festers, as above.

Does that mean 8th is above scrutiny? No. It's not a perfect ruleset. GW will never make a perfect ruleset. Does that mean it's not FUN? No. Coherency of rules does not equal fun, though clarity does help. Should we encourage GW to make better rules? Yes, we should. Does that mean they will? Well, if all the grognarding remains in this forum and nobody sends the GW FAQ e-mail a buzz about what's broken, then nothing will ever get fixed and we'll all continue to complain in this realm where GW doesn't care and doesn't see what we complain about.

Even if we do all tell GW all the things that are wrong and broken, it's likely that it will take time for that all to filter through into the Big FAQs and future Chapter Approved, and even THEN, there will be people that are unhappy because x unit is broken and y unit is 'unplayable' due to whatever changes.

And at the end of the day, if you really aren't having fun with the game... why are you here? Move on to any of a million other hobbies that are A. cheaper B. easier to get into C. easier to learn D. more fun for you E. have more positive people in them F. aren't monopolized by a company you don't like - Pick your route.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Higher prices mean less units need moved to show profit, correct?


If so, I can explain the success...

not unless GW trippled their prices in the last year

Did I say anywhere in my post (conveniently included inside yours) that they sold some abysmally low number of units? No, but I can tell you from first hand experience that there was not the interest in 8th that a runaway sellout would back up. I'm saying that having higher prices with lower cost involved shows more profit than when prices were lower, so any increase will show a profit increase of some time that is different than actual units sold.

 Sim-Life wrote:
The absolute STATE of this thread.

It's almost like some of you are resentful that GW is doing well. Hell the start of the thread was coming close to people yelling "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE REEEEEEEEEE"

Complaining about GW for some is the hobby. Complaining can rewire your brain so it's easier to be negative and in a perverse way enjoyable.

And that's not counting the posters are using Dakka to feed their depression with all the negative energy.

drbored wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
The absolute STATE of this thread.

It's almost like some of you are resentful that GW is doing well. Hell the start of the thread was coming close to people yelling "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE REEEEEEEEEE"

I am "resentful" that bad writing and ripping off customers is being rewarded.

Then don't buy their stuff?

Vote with your dollars. If GW was producing things that nobody wanted, they wouldn't sell, and they wouldn't have financial success. Prior to 8th, GW's fanbase was not so great that they would be able to call 8th a financial success if they didn't bring in new people. The fact that they have been bringing in new people shows that new people are saying 'Y'know, this is expensive, but it looks like enough fun that I'll give it a shot anyway', and while some of those new people figure that 'no, this isn't for me', there are enough that are going 'hey, I like this thing, I'll buy more of it.'

That's how they're measuring their success. The community efforts have really put a halt on a lot of the grognarding that 40k is rife with as well. By providing people with news and community articles, a lot of the vitriol (as we see in this thread) is kept... well, here, in this forum, where it festers, as above.

Does that mean 8th is above scrutiny? No. It's not a perfect ruleset. GW will never make a perfect ruleset. Does that mean it's not FUN? No. Coherency of rules does not equal fun, though clarity does help. Should we encourage GW to make better rules? Yes, we should. Does that mean they will? Well, if all the grognarding remains in this forum and nobody sends the GW FAQ e-mail a buzz about what's broken, then nothing will ever get fixed and we'll all continue to complain in this realm where GW doesn't care and doesn't see what we complain about.

Even if we do all tell GW all the things that are wrong and broken, it's likely that it will take time for that all to filter through into the Big FAQs and future Chapter Approved, and even THEN, there will be people that are unhappy because x unit is broken and y unit is 'unplayable' due to whatever changes.

And at the end of the day, if you really aren't having fun with the game... why are you here? Move on to any of a million other hobbies that are A. cheaper B. easier to get into C. easier to learn D. more fun for you E. have more positive people in them F. aren't monopolized by a company you don't like - Pick your route.

To pull a bit of hyperbole but this sounds a bit like a "love it or leave it and don't let the door hit you on the way out" statement. People like 40k ALOT, GW makes some great models, 40k has fantastic fluff (up until recently but not the point), and many people have enjoyed to various degrees the gameplay of the game for the past few years. 8th really changed up the gameplay which for a decent number of people the changes reduced the fun of the game for them. Many of these people have hundreds or thousands of dollars and untold number of hours building, painting, and other time/money investments into the hobby and now due to the actions of GW their investment of time and money has been soured due to changes in the hobby. What's worse is when there are valid critiques and observations about the game and those opinions get met with a choir of (warning hyperbole) "8th is the best game ever, 7th is literally satan and ate babies".

My little bit to all of this is that at the end of the day 8th is not very fun for me to play so I try to play 7th whenever possible. Win or lose 8th feels boring and bland while 7th feels a lot more tactical which is what gives me enjoyment. I would love 8th to improve although I would prefer them to make a 9th and build a slightly more robust rule set to give some tactical depth and mechanic variety to the game. At the very least GW could do something about terrain being terrible instead of the ideal terrain being either blocks of styrofoam or 1ft by 1ft slabs of area terrain with everything else needing to act like a statue to be relevant (hyperbole: glad that pile of scrap metal and tires is inspiring that guardsman to have better leadership).

If I'm salty about anything it's that GW has been bad about their rules writing and it went on a sharp downward spiral half way through 7th with the whole "decurion style detachments" era of codexes where power went from creeping to full blown nuclear arms race. 8th shows up with all the indexes and it basically guts everything down to barebones stat lines and very simple mechanics and suddenly people at like GW is god's gift to game design when instead it's just that GW made their crew of rules writers take the pants of their heads and make some very bland rules.

Regardless, as to what GW is doing as a company, getting Kirby out of the top decision making position was probably the greatest decision they have ever made as now they have leadership who actually wants to try and engage their consumers and attempt to market to both their existing customers as well as try and bring in new blood. I think the massive success GW is having has less to do with 8th "being a great game" and more so GW actually putting their gold mine of a IP into proper use, getting people excited about the hobby, and reducing barrier to entry for new players (getting new players an even cheaper first hit before going for the wallets). 8th (and AoS) is an easy game to get into which is much better for new players or players who enjoy a more relaxed and less complex game. I think GW's success now shows that all the excuses about currency exchanges due to a strong pound hurting profits was just poor excuses by Kirby to not admit that his vision for GW was stagnation (Kirby ran GW like the high lords of terra ran the IoM).

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Good to see them rewarded for putting out a good product and engaging with their player base! I'm having fun wargaming again thanks to 40K 8th. Its not perfect, but that's OK. Perfect is the enemy of good enough. I'd rather play an imperfect game than admire a perfect game.

Heck, I even looked at AoS this evening at the FLGS...Does that make me a bad wargamer?

1st Edition AoS was trash. The fact WHFB was thrown in a fire to release what amounted to scarcely a wargame, and had more akin to bashing two action figures together, was offensive in many ways.

Edition 1.5 however was moving in the right direction - and from the Wood Elves onwards (Flame dwarfs have grown on me, but they were ugly and expensive on release) the models have tended to be attractive.
I don't see why I shouldn't at least think about giving 2nd Edition a go given they have done a lot of the things I wanted them to do.

Commercial success=/=Good game.

Monopoly is one of the most commercially successful board games. Is it good, compared to something like Pandemic? Hell no.

Someone tell me the GK codex is good writing.

Don't forget, 7th edition was under Kirby's rule, there was pretty much zero social interaction from GW back then.

It's the same, when GW states that AOS is more popular than WHF was. SURE. But if they ever gave WHF the love they give to AOS now...

Tyel wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Good to see them rewarded for putting out a good product and engaging with their player base! I'm having fun wargaming again thanks to 40K 8th. Its not perfect, but that's OK. Perfect is the enemy of good enough. I'd rather play an imperfect game than admire a perfect game.

Heck, I even looked at AoS this evening at the FLGS...Does that make me a bad wargamer?

1st Edition AoS was trash. The fact WHFB was thrown in a fire to release what amounted to scarcely a wargame, and had more akin to bashing two action figures together, was offensive in many ways.

Edition 1.5 however was moving in the right direction - and from the Wood Elves onwards (Flame dwarfs have grown on me, but they were ugly and expensive on release) the models have tended to be attractive.
I don't see why I shouldn't at least think about giving 2nd Edition a go given they have done a lot of the things I wanted them to do.

What happened to WHFB still hurts as i loved the game. Cant argue that something needed to change though as it was clearly not popular enough to continue on. I'm glad AOS seems to be headed in the right direction though and some of the minis they are putting out are amazing. I would love if they released a AOS mass battle for those of us that will never rebase 300 night goblins

 Marmatag wrote:
Casual 40k died with the IG codex.

Apparently my group are all undead, then. Ironic, since you're the one with the Nagash avatar.