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 Formosa wrote:
It’s all done through the medium of marketing though, not a single reply they have made on Facebook is an honest and open one, they are all done through the lense of “you cannot say this, it will hurt our image” or “standard marketing response to query”

Every medium they have used to communicate with customers has one goal, sell more product, and they have done an amazing job at that, even going so far as to convince people that they have produced superior products or changed as a company...

I don't concur with that. The social media team do a sterling job of being on message, pushing product, and doing it in a enthusiastic fan way. Their responses to comments poke fun at in game targets or the posters themselves, but not in a mean exclusive way. Currently I would be happy using them as an example of how to deal with a dedicated but often slightly obsessed fanbase.

 Formosa wrote:
All I see is the success of marketing, marketing that GW has done for the first time in over 20 years, it’s no real surprise that you start making more money when you start advertising to a larger audience.

So well done GW, marketing is successful!

Or maybe, just maybe, the game is actually more fun and easier to pick up and play.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
All I see is the success of marketing, marketing that GW has done for the first time in over 20 years, it’s no real surprise that you start making more money when you start advertising to a larger audience.

So well done GW, marketing is successful!

Or maybe, just maybe, the game is actually more fun and easier to pick up and play.

I dunno man. There's all the evidence to the contrary which totally exists and I could cite if I wanted to but instead I don't have to because you're dumb or something...

bah. Facts don't matter anyways! Fake news!

 Formosa wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
All I see is the success of marketing, marketing that GW has done for the first time in over 20 years, it’s no real surprise that you start making more money when you start advertising to a larger audience.

So well done GW, marketing is successful!

It's more than just marketing though, although that is definitely a factor. It's a complete revolution in how they communicate and interact with their customers.

It’s all done through the medium of marketing though, not a single reply they have made on Facebook is an honest and open one, they are all done through the lense of “you cannot say this, it will hurt our image” or “standard marketing response to query”

Every medium they have used to communicate with customers has one goal, sell more product, and they have done an amazing job at that, even going so far as to convince people that they have produced superior products or changed as a company...

EVERY Company interacts with their customers with the goal of selling more product. But thing is a biiig part of "selling more product" consists of "increasing customer sastifaction" If you put out a new edition of 40k and it's the worst experiance oy everyone's life they're less apt to spend the money on the future, meanwhile if the game is "the mosted fun evah!" they're more likely to spend money. a good consumer/busniess relationship is symbiotic.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
All I see is the success of marketing, marketing that GW has done for the first time in over 20 years, it’s no real surprise that you start making more money when you start advertising to a larger audience.

So well done GW, marketing is successful!

It's more than just marketing though, although that is definitely a factor. It's a complete revolution in how they communicate and interact with their customers.

It’s all done through the medium of marketing though, not a single reply they have made on Facebook is an honest and open one, they are all done through the lense of “you cannot say this, it will hurt our image” or “standard marketing response to query”

Every medium they have used to communicate with customers has one goal, sell more product, and they have done an amazing job at that, even going so far as to convince people that they have produced superior products or changed as a company...

EVERY Company interacts with their customers with the goal of selling more product. But thing is a biiig part of "selling more product" consists of "increasing customer sastifaction" If you put out a new edition of 40k and it's the worst experiance oy everyone's life they're less apt to spend the money on the future, meanwhile if the game is "the mosted fun evah!" they're more likely to spend money. a good consumer/busniess relationship is symbiotic.

But you know that’s not true Brian, until fairly recently, GW had no interaction at all, it was all one way, they stated X and we had to put up with it or move on, many did both.

Now we have seen what happens when you market well, or at all for that matter, it means literally nothing how good a product is if you market it well, people will still buy it and it’s related products, look at the IPhone model, total crap as phones now but people still buy them in droves as it’s matketed so well.

So the phenomenonal FB team does a good job and gets the image to improve, they use other mediums to get the image to improve, people buy into it (rightly or wrongly) and come back to 8th or are new, nice, good job marketing team, because until they buy it and try it, they know nothing meaningful other than what the marketing has told them.

My personal opinion is that 8th is a beta test that needs a hell of a lot of work to be considered “good” I think GW is trying to change its tarnished image for the better but I remain skeptical that they will actually manage it, given past behaviours.

The index scam was very profitable.

Pancakey wrote:
The index scam was very profitable.

I'm sure the non-Marine players were happy to play games without having to wait 3-12 months.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
The index scam was very profitable.

I'm sure the non-Marine players were happy to play games without having to wait 3-12 months.

I am guessing you don’t play orcs?

Pancakey wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
The index scam was very profitable.

I'm sure the non-Marine players were happy to play games without having to wait 3-12 months.

I am guessing you don’t play orcs?

I dunno, I suspect getting 2nd at a major GW GT and then getting 1st at the next major GW GT was probably better than orks not being able to play at all...

 Sim-Life wrote:
So what's the excuse now? We're not REALLY enjoying the game, we've just been fooled by the guy with a flashy suit and slick hairstyle into THINKING we enjoy the game?

Yeah, it seems their marketing is not only making us buy crappy models we don't want, it's also tricking us into thinking this dumpster fire of an edition is actually not that bad. Oh wait....

phillv85 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
So what's the excuse now? We're not REALLY enjoying the game, we've just been fooled by the guy with a flashy suit and slick hairstyle into THINKING we enjoy the game?

Yeah, it seems their marketing is not only making us buy crappy models we don't want, it's also tricking us into thinking this dumpster fire of an edition is actually not that bad. Oh wait....

I mean, I only buy models, paint them, participate in campaign and tournaments, because of marketing. Without the flashy advertising I'd probably realize that 40k and AoS is the worst thing since [insert horrible thing].

If only the superior master wargames could advertise better I could play something decent.

 Eldarsif wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
So what's the excuse now? We're not REALLY enjoying the game, we've just been fooled by the guy with a flashy suit and slick hairstyle into THINKING we enjoy the game?

Yeah, it seems their marketing is not only making us buy crappy models we don't want, it's also tricking us into thinking this dumpster fire of an edition is actually not that bad. Oh wait....

I mean, I only buy models, paint them, participate in campaign and tournaments, because of marketing. Without the flashy advertising I'd probably realize that 40k and AoS is the worst thing since [insert horrible thing].

If only the superior master wargames could advertise better I could play something decent.

They need to convince themselves they have make the right choice. If they don't play the game because it sucks, then that means the game NEEDS to suck, theres no other possibility. So the only excuse for other people to actually enjoy the game and like it are:
-They are GW fanboys
-They don't know better
-They have been tricked by marketing
-They have the beaten-up wife syndrome, and very low standards.

Just pay attention and you'll see the same posters using those excuses over and over and over again. Theres only a couple of posters that even if they dislike the game, are reasonable about it, his flaws, and his virtues.

 Eldarsif wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
So what's the excuse now? We're not REALLY enjoying the game, we've just been fooled by the guy with a flashy suit and slick hairstyle into THINKING we enjoy the game?

Yeah, it seems their marketing is not only making us buy crappy models we don't want, it's also tricking us into thinking this dumpster fire of an edition is actually not that bad. Oh wait....

I mean, I only buy models, paint them, participate in campaign and tournaments, because of marketing. Without the flashy advertising I'd probably realize that 40k and AoS is the worst thing since [insert horrible thing].

If only the superior master wargames could advertise better I could play something decent.

Yep, they've truly got you there buddy, just burn it all.

 Formosa wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
All I see is the success of marketing, marketing that GW has done for the first time in over 20 years, it’s no real surprise that you start making more money when you start advertising to a larger audience.

So well done GW, marketing is successful!

It's more than just marketing though, although that is definitely a factor. It's a complete revolution in how they communicate and interact with their customers.

It’s all done through the medium of marketing though, not a single reply they have made on Facebook is an honest and open one, they are all done through the lense of “you cannot say this, it will hurt our image” or “standard marketing response to query”

Every medium they have used to communicate with customers has one goal, sell more product, and they have done an amazing job at that, even going so far as to convince people that they have produced superior products or changed as a company...

This. This is what bugs me when people claim that GW is engaging the customer base- every single thing written (can't say for speech because I don't watch their videos) is something along the lines of "this thing I'm talking about right now is the greatest and bestest ever!!!!!! Buy it!!!!!!" There isn't anything resembling actual, honest dialog (and yes, a few companies actually do that). There's very little info given other than "new product is coming out, it's the best most beautiful thing we've ever made, amazing and incredible, spend money."

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Pancakey wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
The index scam was very profitable.

I'm sure the non-Marine players were happy to play games without having to wait 3-12 months.

I am guessing you don’t play orcs?

I dunno, I suspect getting 2nd at a major GW GT and then getting 1st at the next major GW GT was probably better than orks not being able to play at all...

Your reply is an interesting insight into how healthy the competitive scene is.

Yep, they've truly got you there buddy, just burn it all.

Done. Now to play the best wargame of all: Star Trek Attack Wing.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
I think 8th only had to be 'good enough' to get the GW momentum wagon back up to speed, and their market saturation would do the rest

The general gist of my GW vs The Rest seemed to be people would rather get consistent games of 40k in than have to hunt down players for 'better' games, plus you can usually skip an edition or three and come back to 40k something not many systems bar MTG can boast

Pretty much exactly this.

I'd bet 90% or so of non-historical wargamers got into the hobby via Games Workshop products. Everybody has Warhammer 40,000 models. Wargaming is both a social hobby and one that requires a large financial investment, as well as personal time played building, painting and playing. This is ultimately the key to GW's success; why risk playing other games that may well die off completely in a few months to a year? People don't want to chance that when all they've known is GW and all their friends are playing GW products. It's just that AoS/7th Edition and GW's business model were so bad that for a good chunk of people they couldn't excuse it anymore. Those couple of years were by far the healthiest for the wargaming hobby as much needed diversity and newly kindled finances flowed into other games. Privateer Press absolutely shot themselves in the foot a few times, but the decline was inevitable when so many of it's new audience were always waiting for an excuse to flock back to GW. You can see this in how Infinity, Malifaux and even Guild Ball have shrunk considerably too.

GW began practising a basic social media presence. People remember their friends - because remember the majority still played GW products for the above reasons - and took what signs they could as an excuse to rejoin the majority of their clubs in playing 40k. Everybody else playing those other games had to buy into 8th if they wanted a community of more than two people, and so they were swallowed up as well. It's why even at their worst, GW could never really die.

 Sim-Life wrote:
So what's the excuse now? We're not REALLY enjoying the game, we've just been fooled by the guy with a flashy suit and slick hairstyle into THINKING we enjoy the game?

More that the guy in a flashy suit and slick hairstyle has fooled you into thinking GW has changed. They have, but only in small ways; a basic social media presence and bringing back discounted starter sets. Prices are still absurd across 90% of the range, the rules writing is as utterly atrocious as it was before, the fluff is dreadful without an easily assignable hate figure (Ward). The difference now is they present it with a smile rather than spitting in your face, making it easier to swallow and convince yourself it's any different. It's 'okay' to buy GW products now because their CEO doesn't have total contempt for you.

Pancakey wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Pancakey wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
The index scam was very profitable.

I'm sure the non-Marine players were happy to play games without having to wait 3-12 months.

I am guessing you don’t play orcs?

I dunno, I suspect getting 2nd at a major GW GT and then getting 1st at the next major GW GT was probably better than orks not being able to play at all...

Your reply is an interesting insight into how healthy the competitive scene is.

No, it's more how 40k players won't call someone out on slow play in public.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
All I see is the success of marketing, marketing that GW has done for the first time in over 20 years, it’s no real surprise that you start making more money when you start advertising to a larger audience.

So well done GW, marketing is successful!

Or maybe, just maybe, the game is actually more fun and easier to pick up and play.

Yes, it is.
But now its more like a board game where maneuvering plays no longer a vital role.

 Galas wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
So what's the excuse now? We're not REALLY enjoying the game, we've just been fooled by the guy with a flashy suit and slick hairstyle into THINKING we enjoy the game?

Yeah, it seems their marketing is not only making us buy crappy models we don't want, it's also tricking us into thinking this dumpster fire of an edition is actually not that bad. Oh wait....

I mean, I only buy models, paint them, participate in campaign and tournaments, because of marketing. Without the flashy advertising I'd probably realize that 40k and AoS is the worst thing since [insert horrible thing].

If only the superior master wargames could advertise better I could play something decent.

They need to convince themselves they have make the right choice. If they don't play the game because it sucks, then that means the game NEEDS to suck, theres no other possibility. So the only excuse for other people to actually enjoy the game and like it are:
-They are GW fanboys
-They don't know better
-They have been tricked by marketing
-They have the beaten-up wife syndrome, and very low standards.

Just pay attention and you'll see the same posters using those excuses over and over and over again. Theres only a couple of posters that even if they dislike the game, are reasonable about it, his flaws, and his virtues.

SEGA does what Nintendon't

 Sim-Life wrote:
So what's the excuse now? We're not REALLY enjoying the game, we've just been fooled by the guy with a flashy suit and slick hairstyle into THINKING we enjoy the game?

It's like Michael Bay movies. I don't enjoy them, no longer watch them and think they are awful garbage, yet they make huge profits.

40k is in no way the best wargame made in the history of wargames. It has many problems and many other systems consistently get better levels of player involvement and enjoyment. But it is the most successful in history, most common and best supported.

Sometimes you don't need to be the best to be the most successful. Indeed Microsoft used to have the unofficial motto of 'good enough'. 40k is good enough to show off your models, have a game with your mates and muck about.

 Formosa wrote:


But you know that’s not true Brian, until fairly recently, GW had no interaction at all, it was all one way, they stated X and we had to put up with it or move on, many did both.

GW had a forum for their games back up until a little while after the Black Crusade summer campaign where the Devs actually would interact with their player base from time to time. It was shutdown right after GW removed a nerf to Nid warriors that was panned by 40K players a large as unnecessary for them that GW put up in an FAQ. The interaction you enjoy now can always be taken away. Yes it would be a bad business decision, just like many people thought shutting down the forums was a bad business decision. It looks like the changes they made are working so far, but we won't be really sure until we see a longer term period of growth and continued interaction from GW. I still consider GWs involvement with their players to be less than it was, though.

I also think they used to have a letters section in WD, but I could be misremembering that from another magazine like Dragon.

Backfire wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
So what's the excuse now? We're not REALLY enjoying the game, we've just been fooled by the guy with a flashy suit and slick hairstyle into THINKING we enjoy the game?

It's like Michael Bay movies. I don't enjoy them, no longer watch them and think they are awful garbage, yet they make huge profits.

Yet presumably you don't go onto the Transformer movie forums and bitch ceaselessly about how awful they are. Curious.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
So what's the excuse now? We're not REALLY enjoying the game, we've just been fooled by the guy with a flashy suit and slick hairstyle into THINKING we enjoy the game?

It's like Michael Bay movies. I don't enjoy them, no longer watch them and think they are awful garbage, yet they make huge profits.

Yet presumably you don't go onto the Transformer movie forums and bitch ceaselessly about how awful they are. Curious.

It's worse than that. This is the equivalent of seeing all the transformer movies, buying all the products and spending hundreds of hours playing transformer games; just to go onto the transformers forums to cry about how the new transformers that actually got good viewer and critics reviews and made tons of money is worse than the last one that had dwindling sales and horrible reviews.

*gasp* How dare someone disagree with popular opinion!

Blastaar wrote:
*gasp* How dare someone disagree with popular opinion!

There's disagreeing then harping on about it at every opportunity to the point of denying facts a year after the event.

Then look at this thread:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/759180.page

Where the complainers are being deliberately hyperbolic and dishonest to someone coming back to the game and was just asking a simple question. The negativity is getting to the point where they're straight up trying to push people away from the community just so they can air a grievance that is at once incorrect and something we've all heard a million times before.

Yeah the hyperbole and salt in that thread was ridiculous.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Yeah the hyperbole and salt in that thread was ridiculous.

I don't see anything hyperbolic at all.

The list of books/documents is 100% accurate. To have every option for your army, including options that were removed from the codex, you need to buy every relevant index and codex and you need to get a copy of every FAQ document. Competitive play means having access to every option, even ones not generally considered to be the strongest ones, available in your toolbox and the simple truth is that GW removed some of those options from the codices because they don't currently sell a plastic kit for it. This is not hyperbole, it's a simple statement of fact.

The claim that plasma goes on everything is 100% accurate. Plasma is, by the indisputable math, the most effective special weapon and all other weapons are niche-role tools at best. It is not at all hyperbole to advise a new player to ignore their intuition from other editions (such as "melta is good at killing tanks") and put plasma on every model that can carry it.

The statement that soup is mandatory is 100% accurate. Competitive play requires the ability to bring soup lists, period, and that means buying every codex that you can soup together. You may wish to bring a mono-codex list for a specific event, but you can not consider yourself a competitive player if you reject a vast section of the very effective options that GW has provided. If you do not buy the rules and models to put soup lists in your toolbox you will be at a significant disadvantage in competitive play.

The claim that GW posts answers on social media is probably inaccurate, but only because social media posts are not official rules and therefore not relevant. They may be useful in choosing your own resolution to a rule issue, if you choose to value an unofficial opinion statement by a GW employee, but they are not mandatory reading.

So no, I don't see much hyperbole here. What I see is that certain pro-GW posters seem to consider objective truth about 8th edition to be "hyperbole" if it points out flaws in the game, perhaps because they are uncomfortable seeing that truth presented to them.

 Peregrine wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Yeah the hyperbole and salt in that thread was ridiculous.

I don't see anything hyperbolic at all.

The list of books/documents is 100% accurate. To have every option for your army, including options that were removed from the codex, you need to buy every relevant index and codex and you need to get a copy of every FAQ document. Competitive play means having access to every option, even ones not generally considered to be the strongest ones, available in your toolbox and the simple truth is that GW removed some of those options from the codices because they don't currently sell a plastic kit for it. This is not hyperbole, it's a simple statement of fact.

The claim that plasma goes on everything is 100% accurate. Plasma is, by the indisputable math, the most effective special weapon and all other weapons are niche-role tools at best. It is not at all hyperbole to advise a new player to ignore their intuition from other editions (such as "melta is good at killing tanks") and put plasma on every model that can carry it.

The statement that soup is mandatory is 100% accurate. Competitive play requires the ability to bring soup lists, period, and that means buying every codex that you can soup together. You may wish to bring a mono-codex list for a specific event, but you can not consider yourself a competitive player if you reject a vast section of the very effective options that GW has provided. If you do not buy the rules and models to put soup lists in your toolbox you will be at a significant disadvantage in competitive play.

The claim that GW posts answers on social media is probably inaccurate, but only because social media posts are not official rules and therefore not relevant. They may be useful in choosing your own resolution to a rule issue, if you choose to value an unofficial opinion statement by a GW employee, but they are not mandatory reading.

So no, I don't see much hyperbole here. What I see is that certain pro-GW posters seem to consider objective truth about 8th edition to be "hyperbole" if it points out flaws in the game, perhaps because they are uncomfortable seeing that truth presented to them.

Seconded.
It seems that we will see more and more GW trolls here. But they can be dismantled. Well done.