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Made in us
Wing Commander





The Burble

 =Angel= wrote:
A point of order- it's not a superheavy killer.
It's a tank Hunter. You field one for the same reason you take a lascannon dev squad- you want tanks to die, at long range, reliably.

The fact that it's supposed to do this in one shot rather than 4 means that the one shot should be capable of 12 damage- enough to one shot a Russ or xeno equivalent. That's why I'd argue for 2d6- reliably damaging ( lowering a point of bs) Russ equivalents with a chance for 12 damage.

What you don't want is for it to become a mini shadows word.


I said a 'heavy armor killer' not a super-heavy killer. Rules for it need to be tailored to the role of cracking heavy armor specifically. So high wound value, low armor save units, which, while including super-heavies, is not limited to them. It also includes russes, land raiders, predators, rock grinders, battlewagons, and a multitude of other, more common vehicles. I specify heavy armor killing because a multitude of other guard units already address the light and medium armor issues. Which leaves scions, melts vets, and vanqs (or heavy weps platoons with lascannons, although they are really anti-everything) as heavy-armor killer. I don't want it to be a mini-shadowsword, as you say, and none of the rule suggestions I made would elevate it to anything like a shadowsword, so I don't know where you are digging up that idea.

And your one-shot idea isn't taking into account command points. When you can add in rerolls (especially in a faction like guard, where they are abundant), the one-shot instakill becomes extremely difficult to balance and removes much of the agency of the other player, making your suggestion less viable in matched play. Conversely, if the vanquisher did solid, reliable damage (Consistently chunking off 5 wounds a turn from heavy armor, for example) and had a rider effect like making everything very likely explode if you take its last wound, then the other player still has agency (don't put things around a wounded tank, or anything that can explode and is currently less than 6 wounds) and you maintain the vanqs fluff role as a tank killer, because guard players will almost always take the killshot with vanquishers to proc the enhanced likelihood of explosions, per my original suggestion.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Phoenix wrote:Well I don't think the battle company would do much to bolster the ranks of my eldar army so no.

Nonsense. The Battle Company box is perfect for filling out your ranks of aspect warriors with a large contingent from the Screaming Baldies shrine.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
Against T7 3+...

Russes
7 Battlecannon shots, 1 Lascannon shot
Hits: 7/2 and 1/2
Wounds: 7/3 and 1/3
Unsaved: 14/9 and 5/18
Damage: 28/9 and 35/36
Total: 3.11 and .97, for 4.08 total

Predators
4 Lascannon shots
Hits: 8/3
Wounds: 16/9
Unsaved: 40/27
Damage: 140/27
Total: 5.18

So the Predator is about 25% better, but also costs about 15% more and is less durable, and can't receive orders or get Chapter Tactics. Running the Russ math again assuming they've got various buffs...

Russes (Rerolling 1s To Hit)
7 Battlecannon shots, 1 Lascannon shot
Hits: 49/12 and 7/12
Wounds: 49/18 and 7/18
Unsaved: 49/27 and 35/108
Damage: 98/27 and 245/216
Total: 3.63 and 1.13, for 4.76, making the Predator not even 10% better, and all that takes is a tank order or being Cadian and not moving.

Russes (Rerolling Number Of Shots On One Die)
7.75 (31/4) Battlecannon shots, 1 Lascannon shot
Hits: 31/8 and 1/2
Wounds: 31/12 and 1/3
Unsaved: 31/18 and 5/18
Damage: 31/9 and 35/36
Total: 3.44 and .97, for 4.41 total, making the Predator about 17% better. Russ is pretty much as good per point at doing wounds, and is more durable.

Russes (Rerolling 1s To Hit And Number Of Shots On One Die)
7.75 (31/4) Battlecannon Shots, 1 Lascannon Shot
Hits: 217/48 and 7/12
Wounds: 217/72 and 7/18
Unsaved: 217/108 and 35/108
Damage: 217/54 and 245/216
Total: 4.02 and 1.13, for 5.15 total, making the Predator not even a whole percent better. (It rounds up to 1% better, barely.) At being more expensive, and less durable.

Ah, I made an arithmetic error in my previous calculation. You are correct on the average damage output of a quad-las predator being 5.18 per shooting phase.

However, I don't think orders is a fair thing to take into account because that requires a 200+ point tank commander and at that point you are comparing apples to oranges.

You have a point on regimental doctrines, but doesn't the quad-las predator get to fire an extra lascannon shot at full ballistic skill due to power of the machine spirit? Something the Russ definitely cannot do. Forgive me if I am wrong on this but I seem to remember something about that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/02 19:55:55


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The long and the short version of my argument as to why a LRBC is just too effective against armour specifically T7 3+Sv.

As the following vehicals are all different costs and number of wounds I'll start at the easiest to kill and work to the hardest. The damage output isn't the main concern due to the different vehical costs and durability its the cost of Points per Wound.

For balance the weakest units should cost less points per wound inflicted as they stand the most chance of being bracketed or killed, tougher units should have a higher PPW as they should be more survivable.

Predator T7 11W
Quad las
Static 37ppw
Moving 49ppw
Auto + Las
Static 40ppw
Moving 52ppw
Las + Heavy Bolter
Static 49ppw
Moving 65ppw

Hammerhead T7 13W
Static 45ppw
Moving 59ppw

LRBT BC T8 12W
Las Cannon + Heavy Bolters
Static 39ppw
Moving 44ppw
Catachan
Static 36ppw
Moving 40ppw

A Catachan LR does more damage per point against T7 3+Sv than a quad las predator.

LRBT VC T8 12W
Las Cannon + Heavy Bolters
Static 47ppw
Moving 54ppw

Yes this is worse than a quad las predator but +1T and +1W
Also the quad las predator against GEU and MEU is 86ppw and 103ppw static and even wose if it has to move GEU 114ppw and MEU 137ppw

The Vanquisher can still manage 61ppw against GEU and 88ppw against MEU static and shows far less drop in efficiency for that T1 move with 80ppw GRU and 112ppw MEU. Still nothing compaired to the Battle cannons static performance of 33ppw and 50ppw.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

w1zard wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Against T7 3+...

Russes
7 Battlecannon shots, 1 Lascannon shot
Hits: 7/2 and 1/2
Wounds: 7/3 and 1/3
Unsaved: 14/9 and 5/18
Damage: 28/9 and 35/36
Total: 3.11 and .97, for 4.08 total

Predators
4 Lascannon shots
Hits: 8/3
Wounds: 16/9
Unsaved: 40/27
Damage: 140/27
Total: 5.18

So the Predator is about 25% better, but also costs about 15% more and is less durable, and can't receive orders or get Chapter Tactics. Running the Russ math again assuming they've got various buffs...

Russes (Rerolling 1s To Hit)
7 Battlecannon shots, 1 Lascannon shot
Hits: 49/12 and 7/12
Wounds: 49/18 and 7/18
Unsaved: 49/27 and 35/108
Damage: 98/27 and 245/216
Total: 3.63 and 1.13, for 4.76, making the Predator not even 10% better, and all that takes is a tank order or being Cadian and not moving.

Russes (Rerolling Number Of Shots On One Die)
7.75 (31/4) Battlecannon shots, 1 Lascannon shot
Hits: 31/8 and 1/2
Wounds: 31/12 and 1/3
Unsaved: 31/18 and 5/18
Damage: 31/9 and 35/36
Total: 3.44 and .97, for 4.41 total, making the Predator about 17% better. Russ is pretty much as good per point at doing wounds, and is more durable.

Russes (Rerolling 1s To Hit And Number Of Shots On One Die)
7.75 (31/4) Battlecannon Shots, 1 Lascannon Shot
Hits: 217/48 and 7/12
Wounds: 217/72 and 7/18
Unsaved: 217/108 and 35/108
Damage: 217/54 and 245/216
Total: 4.02 and 1.13, for 5.15 total, making the Predator not even a whole percent better. (It rounds up to 1% better, barely.) At being more expensive, and less durable.

Ah, I made an arithmetic error in my previous calculation. You are correct on the average damage output of a quad-las predator being 5.18 per shooting phase.

However, I don't think orders is a fair thing to take into account because that requires a 200+ point tank commander and at that point you are comparing apples to oranges.

You have a point on regimental doctrines, but doesn't the quad-las predator get to fire an extra lascannon shot at full ballistic skill due to power of the machine spirit? Something the Russ definitely cannot do. Forgive me if I am wrong on this but I seem to remember something about that.


That's why I did math not factoring in orders. Only the last one REQUIRES orders-the rest are just regiment tactics. So a Cadian Russ is, point for point, better than a Predator.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Nope predators don't have power of the machine spirit, only landradiers get that.
Also all PotMS does is allow you to move and fire heavy without the -1 to hit penalty
No extra shooting for matine vehicals.
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:

That's why I did math not factoring in orders. Only the last one REQUIRES orders-the rest are just regiment tactics. So a Cadian Russ is, point for point, better than a Predator.

How? A cadian russ getting re-rolls on 1s AND rerolls of shots requires: orders, and the russ to remain completely still. That is not a fair comparison.

A cadian russ is 10% less efficient then a predator at killing T7 3+, and that requires the LRBT to not move at all otherwise it is even worse. 26 points and 1 less toughness on the predator side seems like a fair tradeoff.

Ice_can wrote:
Nope predators don't have power of the machine spirit, only landradiers get that.
Also all PotMS does is allow you to move and fire heavy without the -1 to hit penalty
No extra shooting for matine vehicals.

My bad, I am not a marine player.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 08:25:56


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

w1zard wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:

That's why I did math not factoring in orders. Only the last one REQUIRES orders-the rest are just regiment tactics. So a Cadian Russ is, point for point, better than a Predator.

How? A cadian russ getting re-rolls on 1s AND rerolls of shots requires: orders, and the russ to remain completely still. That is not a fair comparison.

A cadian russ is 10% less efficient then a predator at killing T7 3+, and that requires the LRBT to not move at all otherwise it is even worse. 26 points and 1 less toughness on the predator side seems like a fair tradeoff.


A Cadian Russ, who has the range needed to shoot anything without moving, costs 34.45 Points Per Wound dealt.

A Predator costs 36.68 Points Per Wound Dealt.

The Cadian Russ, without any orders, is more efficient than the Predator AND more durable.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:

A Cadian Russ, who has the range needed to shoot anything without moving...

So is a predator...

 JNAProductions wrote:

...costs 34.45 Points Per Wound dealt.

A Predator costs 36.68 Points Per Wound Dealt.

This is within the limits of statistical negligibility.

Now, you can make an argument that because they are neck in neck with damage output per point, and the russ has +1 toughness and a wider array of targets that it isn't quite fair and I would agree with you.

Space marine vehicles really should get chapter traits. Outside of the really stupid issue of LRBTs getting regimental doctrines and space marine vehicles not getting chapter traits, I'd say the two are pretty well balanced against each other.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/03 18:11:33


 
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

Yes, I know a Predator is too. But it's more important for the Cadian Russ to not be moving, for reroll 1s.

And okay-so it's basically the same in terms of offensive output, while being moire durable.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




w1zard wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:

A Cadian Russ, who has the range needed to shoot anything without moving...

So is a predator...

 JNAProductions wrote:

...costs 34.45 Points Per Wound dealt.

A Predator costs 36.68 Points Per Wound Dealt.

This is within the limits of statistical negligibility.

Now, you can make an argument that because they are neck in neck with damage output per point, and the russ has +1 toughness and a wider array of targets that it isn't quite fair and I would agree with you.

Space marine vehicles really should get chapter traits. Outside of the really stupid issue of LRBTs getting regimental doctrines and space marine vehicles not getting chapter traits, I'd say the two are pretty well balanced against each other.


The thing your missing 2 main issue
Is it a specialist or generalist tank?
1 How good is it at killing a tank
2 How good is it at killing infantry

How do you make a vanquisher better than a LRBT with BC against tanks without being OP when the LRBT is better than an anti armour specialist against tanks.

Please see the below examples for a T7 3+Sv

Predator T7 11W 
Quad las 
Static 37ppw 
Moving 49ppw

LRBT BC T8 12W 
Las Cannon + Heavy Bolters  
Catachan 
Static 36ppw 
Moving 40ppw

Look at what happens when both tanks move, as you should be trying to set up a predator atleast out of LOS turn 1 or it will get shot to bits.
A Lemman Russ does better damage per point turn 1

Now lets say your in a tournament and you list is fixed and you meet an army with no vehicals so you have to shoot at infantry

GEQ

Predator
Static 85.5ppw
Moving 114 ppw

LRBT
Static 36ppw
Moving 42ppw

MEQ 1W

Predator
Static 103ppw
Moving 137ppw

LRBT
Static 62ppw
Moving 73.36ppw

Is a LRBT with BC a generalis or specialist as it performs against both infantry and armour the answer is generalist.

Should a tougher generalist tank with an extra wound cost less PPW than a specialist anti tank tank?

For balance the answer is obviously not currently a catachan LRBT with BC is just too good. The problem is not that a LR with Vanquisher sucks its actually fairly well balanced compaired to other tanks its that the LRBT with BC is just too good for its points.
   
Made in us
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A vanquisher is not balanced at all. Do the math with the vanquisher (which is a dedicated anti-tank) against a quad-las predator and you will see that it is extremely underpowered. Against T7 3+

Quad Las Predator - See math in above posts ~5.18 damage per shooting phase

Vanquisher - 2 shots -> 1 hit -> (2/3) wounds -> (10/18) unsaved wounds -> ~(90/36) damage + (Lascannon) 1 shot -> (1/2) hits -> (1/3) wounds -> (5/18) unsaved wounds -> (35/36) damage = ~3.47 damage per shooting phase

A LRBT with BC may have an edge when compared to a quad-las predator, but that is more because the predator doesn't get a chapter tactic for some stupid reason and the LRBT does. It's not because the LRBT is overpowered.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/04 04:56:19


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




w1zard wrote:
A vanquisher is not balanced at all. Do the math with the vanquisher (which is a dedicated anti-tank) against a quad-las predator and you will see that it is extremely underpowered. Against T7 3+

Quad Las Predator - See math in above posts ~5.18 damage per shooting phase

Vanquisher - 2 shots -> 1 hit -> (2/3) wounds -> (10/18) unsaved wounds -> ~(90/36) damage + (Lascannon) 1 shot -> (1/2) hits -> (1/3) wounds -> (5/18) unsaved wounds -> (35/36) damage = ~3.47 damage per shooting phase

A LRBT with BC may have an edge when compared to a quad-las predator, but that is more because the predator doesn't get a chapter tactic for some stupid reason and the LRBT does. It's not because the LRBT is overpowered.

Which is true. Give them Ignore Cover or something and you're gold.
That said, one of the reasons of imbalance is because Guard got this right: tanks are benefitting from essentially different Chapter Tactics, and Eldar/Dark Eldar/Necrons/Marine variants should have been done the same way. I don't know what I would give Ultramarine vehicles instead of Fly Lite, but it would be something at least...

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which is true. Give them Ignore Cover or something and you're gold.

That is still not enough, you would need damage increases. 3d3 damage + re-roll failed wounds vs MCs and vehicles would be a good starting point for viability. 3d3 damage sounds like a lot, but it is only 1.5 damage higher on average then 2d6 pick the highest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/04 06:09:15


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




w1zard wrote:
A vanquisher is not balanced at all. Do the math with the vanquisher (which is a dedicated anti-tank) against a quad-las predator and you will see that it is extremely underpowered. Against T7 3+

Quad Las Predator - See math in above posts ~5.18 damage per shooting phase

Vanquisher - 2 shots -> 1 hit -> (2/3) wounds -> (10/18) unsaved wounds -> ~(90/36) damage + (Lascannon) 1 shot -> (1/2) hits -> (1/3) wounds -> (5/18) unsaved wounds -> (35/36) damage = ~3.47 damage per shooting phase

A LRBT with BC may have an edge when compared to a quad-las predator, but that is more because the predator doesn't get a chapter tactic for some stupid reason and the LRBT does. It's not because the LRBT is overpowered.

Your not being fair in your comparison for a number of reasons.
1 You are not including any sponsons on the LR but going with a totally dedicated predator with sponsons.

2 That vanquisher is T8 not T7 and 12W to 11W. T8 is important as it effects a lot basic infantry need 6's to wound OC plasma need 4's not 3's durability has to have a points cost so to do the same damage as a predator on a more durable platform a LRVanquisher would have to be over 200 points which it isn't.

3 Your also looking at raw damage from a static tank.
static is the most favourable comparison for the LRVanquisher as the predator's damage output drops significantly when it moves as it becomes 4 BS4 lascannons LR turret weapons arn't.

4 Your ignoring the difference in threat range between them.
The predator's 48 inch range doesn't cover all the board
The Vanquisher can cover most of a board from a central position.
I grant you terrain will effect your ability to use that exrra range but you will pat a points cost for that range.
   
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Ice_can wrote:
1 You are not including any sponsons on the LR but going with a totally dedicated predator with sponsons.

The only anti-tank sponsons that a LRBT can take are multimeltas, and those only work within 24 inches. Nobody takes them because they are hilariously overpriced for what they do.

Ice_can wrote:
2 That vanquisher is T8 not T7 and 12W to 11W. T8 is important as it effects a lot basic infantry need 6's to wound OC plasma need 4's not 3's durability has to have a points cost so to do the same damage as a predator on a more durable platform a LRVanquisher would have to be over 200 points which it isn't.

Sure but that extra survivability isn't worth the massively gimped damage output the vanquisher has in relation to the quad-las predator. Even accounting for the points difference.

Ice_can wrote:
3 Your also looking at raw damage from a static tank.
static is the most favourable comparison for the LRVanquisher as the predator's damage output drops significantly when it moves as it becomes 4 BS4 lascannons LR turret weapons arn't.

I am assuming both the quad-las predator and vanquisher are static, true. But the vanquisher is only allowed to move under 6" otherwise it loses half of it's damage output. Also, if the vanquisher moves it's lascannon gets a -1 as well which reduces the damage output anyway. I'll redo the math at the bottom if you would like.

Ice_can wrote:
4 Your ignoring the difference in threat range between them.
The predator's 48 inch range doesn't cover all the board
The Vanquisher can cover most of a board from a central position.

This is being disengenuous. 48" is plenty, and I don't think I've ever had to shoot outside of 48" in any game of 40k I've ever played. A quad-las predator on the center of a 6'x4' board can hit anything on the board too.

Math for moving quad-las predator and moving (under 6" ) vanquisher hitting T7 3+... keep in mind this scenario disadvantages the predator in pretty much every way vs the vanquisher and is vs a target profile that the predator gains no advantage against but that the vanquisher and LRBT are purposely built to target:

Predator:
4 shots -> 2 hits -> (4/3) wounds -> (20/18) unsaved wounds -> (140/36) damage = ~3.89 damage per shooting phase

Vanquisher:
2 shots -> 1 hit -> (2/3) wounds -> (10/18) unsaved wounds -> (90/36) damage + (lascannon) 1 shot -> (1/3) hit -> (2/9) wounds -> (10/54) unsaved wounds -> (70/108) damage = ~3.14 damage per shooting phase

The predator STILL outperforms the vanquisher by 23% even when every possible contrived advantage is given to the vanquisher and every possible disadvantage is given to the predator.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/04 07:34:59


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




1 split fire is given for free in 8th edition. Not taking those sponsons is a bad idea, also while they may only be heavy bolters they will chip away extra wounds here and there. It also means your not totally screwed when you meet mass guardsmen, green tide orks.
It's not as good as a Punisher but it will still be contributing.
A quad las predator against infantry is just hot garbage.

2 Your focusing on raw damage against a tank. That's not a compatible metric given the difference in cost, difference in survivability and mobility.
You also have to look at how if fairs against non optimal targets aswell.
Thats why I was using Points per wound. It's a much clearer comparison.

3 The Vanquisher should either be valhallan or tallern, a Valhallan vanquisher is going to be able to force an enemy to focus each down one at a time, while tallern vanquishers can move without taking to hit penalty for hull and sponsons. At which point it should match a moving predator.
(I'll grant this might be less obvious but both make the Vanquisher more worth its points, the issue is usually deciding the best mix and match of regiments for your 3 detachments.

4 I never said the range thing was fair I'm pointing out that you can and should expect to be paying an opportunity cost for that additional range.

Also the usability of that additional range really depends on if your playing GW true LOS 40k or ITC first floor blocks LOS 40K. As in GW land you probably can use that additional range way more, if your playing ITC terrain (personally I thing its better as it atleast brings some movement back into the game) I agree your probably paying points for a stats advantage that will be rarely seen on the table top.

I would say though what I don't understand is why GW capped the AP round at S8 for a vanquisher it should be S9 as a dedicated armour piercing round.

You could maybe argue that the cost of a vanquisher is a tad high, if you drop its points by 5 or 10 I would imagine it would be close while still having a considerable advantage against infantry.

But the biggest issue is still that a Battle cannon russ is way undercosted.
   
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w1zard wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which is true. Give them Ignore Cover or something and you're gold.

That is still not enough, you would need damage increases. 3d3 damage + re-roll failed wounds vs MCs and vehicles would be a good starting point for viability. 3d3 damage sounds like a lot, but it is only 1.5 damage higher on average then 2d6 pick the highest.

I was more referring to the Predator...

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ice_can wrote:
1 split fire is given for free in 8th edition. Not taking those sponsons is a bad idea, also while they may only be heavy bolters they will chip away extra wounds here and there. It also means your not totally screwed when you meet mass guardsmen, green tide orks.
It's not as good as a Punisher but it will still be contributing.
A quad las predator against infantry is just hot garbage.

I was trying to compare a vanquisher vs a quad-las predator against vehicles, but sure, we can slap on heavy bolter sponsons onto a vanquisher and reduce it's points efficiency against vehicles even further.

Ice_can wrote:

2 Your focusing on raw damage against a tank. That's not a compatible metric given the difference in cost, difference in survivability and mobility.
You also have to look at how if fairs against non optimal targets aswell.
Thats why I was using Points per wound. It's a much clearer comparison.

The vanquisher fares just as poorly against non-optimal targets as a predator does and loses damage output if it moves at all (except if it is tallarn). Sure we can do the math on points per damage in shooting phase:

Against T7 3+:

quad-las predator (not moving) - 36.68 points per damage
vanquisher (not moving) - 47.26 points per damage

quad-las predator (moving up to max movement) - 48.84 points per damage
vanquisher (moving max 6" ) - 52.23 points per damage

Once again, the predator still performs better then the vanquisher, even under a scenario that goes out of its way to do everything it can to disadvantage the predator and advantage the vanquisher. A vanquisher also doesn't have the generalist target capability like the BC does. Sure the vanquisher is slightly more durable than the predator, and can move (under 6" ) without losing as much damage output as the predator loses while moving, but it really isn't worth the total decreased damage output.

I don't take into account regimental traits. The space marine codex not having chapter tactics on vehicles is a stupid issue that I feel sorry for the space marine players having to deal with, but that is on the internal balance of their codex, and has nothing to do with the balance of the IG codex.

Ice_can wrote:
You could maybe argue that the cost of a vanquisher is a tad high, if you drop its points by 5 or 10 I would imagine it would be close while still having a considerable advantage against infantry.

We don't want the cost of the vanquisher lowered, we just want it to be better.

Ice_can wrote:
But the biggest issue is still that a Battle cannon russ is way undercosted.

If anything I'd argue that the quad-las predator is overcosted slightly and needs chapter tactics to come into balance with the LRBT with BC.

The LRBT with BC is not overpowered, you don't see any IG tank lists doing well at tournaments for a reason.

If the LRBT with BC is overpowered then every vehicle in the IG is overpowered, because manticores, basilisks etc all have better points per damage then LRBT with BC AND can ignore LOS on top of it.

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2018/07/04 22:24:18


 
   
 
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