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Most of stratagems are bad. I think after the rest of armys gets his own codex there will be nothing.

Once they are all out, SM will get a reloaded for make them TOP again. But not now. Maybe just a Little points change but no more.

I could absolutely see a Codex: Space Marines 2.0 in 8th. They are such a major faction that them being in the trash can is just laughable. Point adjustments could 'fix' the competitive problem, but they need a redesign. Making tactical marines 10 points won't really fix the codex the way we want it to be fixed. We want to see marines be strong and live up to their Emperor's finest moniker.
They need a completely new set of stratagems, re-designed chapter tactics, have said chapter tactics work on vehicles, make the standard marine not be less cost efficient than Catachan guardsmen in melee, there needs to be something done about Primaris 2 wound syndrome, make drop pods allow turn 1 deep strike outside your own deployment, give transports something worth carrying, etc etc.

We can make it competitive via point drops sure, but that is lazy and uninspired. I think it is fair to say most people want marines to feel like MARINES and not go back to the spammy hoard army it was in a 7th gladius.

They can't live up because the disintegrator cannon exists. Cheaper is the only out I can see. Unless you want 3 wound marines out there.

 Marmatag wrote:
SM/CSM need a few updates that are no-brainers, that I hope we can all agree on.

1. Chapter tactics only affect infantry and walkers. Everyone else gets the full benefit of their tactics. Why are these two specifically limited?

2. I would also revise chapter tactics / army buffs, and this isn't specific to SM. -1 to hit is too strong. Army wide rerolls is too strong. It just so happens that some of the SM tactics are really, really bad.

3. Something flavorful in regards to stratagems. Right now they have fairly weak stratagems. The best ones are flak missile and hellfire shells, which are good, but the rest leave a lot to be desired. Especially with the rule of 3 impacting predators and vindicators, making those stratagems very difficult to use.

1-nothing actually wrong with this, not every army has to adhere to the same rules. and SM are notorius as a whole for neglecting their armored forces (in comparison to other factions) if favor of the "glory of the man in power armor". you just need to balance around that fact.

2-also wrong. nothing wrong with the -1 to hit tactics per say. though I'd restrict it to 18" or even 24" away to make it easier to fight against. that said, SM does have a few weak tactics. (and a few really good ones. RG just overshadows the not-at-all-bad UM or IH, and Sallys are honestly freakishly powerful too)

3-Well, many armies suffer from that issue.
3-

I'd expect a Codex: Primaris before any sort of generic SM codex. Print a codex specifically for them, add/extend a few new units, then just go on to primarily support it. It's the way GW is going, with just the standard powered armored boys getting phased out in the next 2 editions or so.

That being said, the SM codex is fine. Not great, not top-tier, but fine. It's okay to let something like Drukhari have the spotlight once in a while.

I don't think there should be spotlights in the first place. And competitive Drukhari would have been nice, not what we got.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
SM/CSM need a few updates that are no-brainers, that I hope we can all agree on.

1. Chapter tactics only affect infantry and walkers. Everyone else gets the full benefit of their tactics. Why are these two specifically limited?

2. I would also revise chapter tactics / army buffs, and this isn't specific to SM. -1 to hit is too strong. Army wide rerolls is too strong. It just so happens that some of the SM tactics are really, really bad.

3. Something flavorful in regards to stratagems. Right now they have fairly weak stratagems. The best ones are flak missile and hellfire shells, which are good, but the rest leave a lot to be desired. Especially with the rule of 3 impacting predators and vindicators, making those stratagems very difficult to use.

1-nothing actually wrong with this, not every army has to adhere to the same rules. and SM are notorius as a whole for neglecting their armored forces (in comparison to other factions) if favor of the "glory of the man in power armor". you just need to balance around that fact.

2-also wrong. nothing wrong with the -1 to hit tactics per say. though I'd restrict it to 18" or even 24" away to make it easier to fight against. that said, SM does have a few weak tactics. (and a few really good ones. RG just overshadows the not-at-all-bad UM or IH, and Sallys are honestly freakishly powerful too)

3-Well, many armies suffer from that issue.
3-

1- everything is wrong with this - every other army has traits affecting their entire army. Your marine hate is showing.
2 - everything is wrong with the -1 to hit trait - it has been for-front of practically every meta list for a reason. It is overpowered and completely invalidates some armies.
3 - some armies don't have great stratagems - TZ is not one of them. Buffing invo saves on units - reroll psychic tests auras - deep strike stratagems available to the whole codex of daemons. Daemons issue is they don't have guns. You have to have guns to win in this game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I'd expect a Codex: Primaris before any sort of generic SM codex. Print a codex specifically for them, add/extend a few new units, then just go on to primarily support it. It's the way GW is going, with just the standard powered armored boys getting phased out in the next 2 editions or so.

That being said, the SM codex is fine. Not great, not top-tier, but fine. It's okay to let something like Drukhari have the spotlight once in a while.

They are litterally dumpster fire. What codex is space marines better than? Other than greyknights?

The Forgeworld guys at Origins did mention that management at GW is displeased with the lack of primaris in tournaments.

Martel732 wrote:
The Forgeworld guys at Origins did mention that management at GW is displeased with the lack of primaris in tournaments.

Hmmm.... I wonder why there is a lack pf Primaris in tournaments.... It's almost like the rules GW gave them are sub-par. It is almost as if rules sell models.

I told them that, actually. Told them I own many primaris models that sit on the shelf. They can't be used at all after Drukari dropped. They didn't disagree with me, but couldn't openly agree.

Martel732 wrote:
I told them that, actually. Told them I own many primaris models that sit on the shelf. They can't be used at all after Drukari dropped. They didn't disagree with me, but couldn't openly agree.

I disagree that they can't be used. I've had some fun games with my Primaris Deathwatch force at my FLGS. I do however entirely agree that their place in a tournament is very limited. They, like codex space marines, can be used in and are entirely capable in more casual type games. The problem is getting that game set up. I set up games with my friends before hand frequently and trying to establish to the other what we consider competitive and non-competitive is a nightmare. It is a sad state for the army when to even attempt to have balanced game you have to be very specific about what kind of game you want to have. I can't walk into a game blind with my Space Marines or more guard or my dark eldar due to the wildly different power levels of so many armies and builds.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
SM/CSM need a few updates that are no-brainers, that I hope we can all agree on.

1. Chapter tactics only affect infantry and walkers. Everyone else gets the full benefit of their tactics. Why are these two specifically limited?

2. I would also revise chapter tactics / army buffs, and this isn't specific to SM. -1 to hit is too strong. Army wide rerolls is too strong. It just so happens that some of the SM tactics are really, really bad.

3. Something flavorful in regards to stratagems. Right now they have fairly weak stratagems. The best ones are flak missile and hellfire shells, which are good, but the rest leave a lot to be desired. Especially with the rule of 3 impacting predators and vindicators, making those stratagems very difficult to use.

1-nothing actually wrong with this, not every army has to adhere to the same rules. and SM are notorius as a whole for neglecting their armored forces (in comparison to other factions) if favor of the "glory of the man in power armor". you just need to balance around that fact.

2-also wrong. nothing wrong with the -1 to hit tactics per say. though I'd restrict it to 18" or even 24" away to make it easier to fight against. that said, SM does have a few weak tactics. (and a few really good ones. RG just overshadows the not-at-all-bad UM or IH, and Sallys are honestly freakishly powerful too)

3-Well, many armies suffer from that issue.
3-

1- everything is wrong with this - every other army has traits affecting their entire army. Your marine hate is showing.
2 - everything is wrong with the -1 to hit trait - it has been for-front of practically every meta list for a reason. It is overpowered and completely invalidates some armies.
3 - some armies don't have great stratagems - TZ is not one of them. Buffing invo saves on units - reroll psychic tests auras - deep strike stratagems available to the whole codex of daemons. Daemons issue is they don't have guns. You have to have guns to win in this game.

1-What marine hate? I play thousand sons mostly, even more of my stuff don't even have tactics! (i don't even get it on all walkers and all infantry.) having tactics only effect some of the units is not an issue if the army is properly balanced around that fact so that the units not effected are still useful despite not having tactics and the units with tactics are balanced with the tactics.

2-again, nothing wrong with it as a concept. the EXECUTION was bad, because 12" is just too close before its negated and as such too hard to counter, but had it been longer range (18" or maybe 24"), it wouldn't be an issue, ESPECIALLY on marines that only effect their infantry/bikes (though on eldar it might still be an issue, and admech if admech as a whole was better)

3-never said TZ suffers from bad stratagems (though we also have a fair few who are facepalm worthy), I just said others suffer from it too. also, that's not even saying the SM stratagems aren't bad, so no idea why you are arguing with me on this.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I told them that, actually. Told them I own many primaris models that sit on the shelf. They can't be used at all after Drukari dropped. They didn't disagree with me, but couldn't openly agree.

I disagree that they can't be used. I've had some fun games with my Primaris Deathwatch force at my FLGS. I do however entirely agree that their place in a tournament is very limited. They, like codex space marines, can be used in and are entirely capable in more casual type games. The problem is getting that game set up. I set up games with my friends before hand frequently and trying to establish to the other what we consider competitive and non-competitive is a nightmare. It is a sad state for the army when to even attempt to have balanced game you have to be very specific about what kind of game you want to have. I can't walk into a game blind with my Space Marines or more guard or my dark eldar due to the wildly different power levels of so many armies and builds.

All my games are blind. No quarter. No mercy. No discussion.

Martel732 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I told them that, actually. Told them I own many primaris models that sit on the shelf. They can't be used at all after Drukari dropped. They didn't disagree with me, but couldn't openly agree.

I disagree that they can't be used. I've had some fun games with my Primaris Deathwatch force at my FLGS. I do however entirely agree that their place in a tournament is very limited. They, like codex space marines, can be used in and are entirely capable in more casual type games. The problem is getting that game set up. I set up games with my friends before hand frequently and trying to establish to the other what we consider competitive and non-competitive is a nightmare. It is a sad state for the army when to even attempt to have balanced game you have to be very specific about what kind of game you want to have. I can't walk into a game blind with my Space Marines or more guard or my dark eldar due to the wildly different power levels of so many armies and builds.

All my games are blind. No quarter. No mercy. No discussion.

Well there is your problem. If you want games with weaker forces you are required to communicate. It sucks that we have to do that kind of thing, but it is the law of the land as it were. I feel for ya man, I do.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
SM/CSM need a few updates that are no-brainers, that I hope we can all agree on.

1. Chapter tactics only affect infantry and walkers. Everyone else gets the full benefit of their tactics. Why are these two specifically limited?

2. I would also revise chapter tactics / army buffs, and this isn't specific to SM. -1 to hit is too strong. Army wide rerolls is too strong. It just so happens that some of the SM tactics are really, really bad.

3. Something flavorful in regards to stratagems. Right now they have fairly weak stratagems. The best ones are flak missile and hellfire shells, which are good, but the rest leave a lot to be desired. Especially with the rule of 3 impacting predators and vindicators, making those stratagems very difficult to use.

1-nothing actually wrong with this, not every army has to adhere to the same rules. and SM are notorius as a whole for neglecting their armored forces (in comparison to other factions) if favor of the "glory of the man in power armor". you just need to balance around that fact.

2-also wrong. nothing wrong with the -1 to hit tactics per say. though I'd restrict it to 18" or even 24" away to make it easier to fight against. that said, SM does have a few weak tactics. (and a few really good ones. RG just overshadows the not-at-all-bad UM or IH, and Sallys are honestly freakishly powerful too)

3-Well, many armies suffer from that issue.
3-

1- everything is wrong with this - every other army has traits affecting their entire army. Your marine hate is showing.
2 - everything is wrong with the -1 to hit trait - it has been for-front of practically every meta list for a reason. It is overpowered and completely invalidates some armies.
3 - some armies don't have great stratagems - TZ is not one of them. Buffing invo saves on units - reroll psychic tests auras - deep strike stratagems available to the whole codex of daemons. Daemons issue is they don't have guns. You have to have guns to win in this game.

1-What marine hate? I play thousand sons mostly, even more of my stuff don't even have tactics! (i don't even get it on all walkers and all infantry.) having tactics only effect some of the units is not an issue if the army is properly balanced around that fact so that the units not effected are still useful despite not having tactics and the units with tactics are balanced with the tactics.

2-again, nothing wrong with it as a concept. the EXECUTION was bad, because 12" is just too close before its negated and as such too hard to counter, but had it been longer range (18" or maybe 24"), it wouldn't be an issue, ESPECIALLY on marines that only effect their infantry/bikes (though on eldar it might still be an issue, and admech if admech as a whole was better)

3-never said TZ suffers from bad stratagems (though we also have a fair few who are facepalm worthy), I just said others suffer from it too. also, that's not even saying the SM stratagems aren't bad, so no idea why you are arguing with me on this.

Thought you were playing TZ daemons. TS suffer from the same crap codex marines does - it just has a few good units in it where space marines basically has 0 good units. Even Guilliman is a bust. Better buffing an army of IK than his ultra marines.

"Law of the land"? I've never played in 40K group where the "have's" didn't stomp the "have nots" into the turf every chance they got.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I told them that, actually. Told them I own many primaris models that sit on the shelf. They can't be used at all after Drukari dropped. They didn't disagree with me, but couldn't openly agree.

I disagree that they can't be used. I've had some fun games with my Primaris Deathwatch force at my FLGS. I do however entirely agree that their place in a tournament is very limited. They, like codex space marines, can be used in and are entirely capable in more casual type games. The problem is getting that game set up. I set up games with my friends before hand frequently and trying to establish to the other what we consider competitive and non-competitive is a nightmare. It is a sad state for the army when to even attempt to have balanced game you have to be very specific about what kind of game you want to have. I can't walk into a game blind with my Space Marines or more guard or my dark eldar due to the wildly different power levels of so many armies and builds.

All my games are blind. No quarter. No mercy. No discussion.

Well there is your problem. If you want games with weaker forces you are required to communicate. It sucks that we have to do that kind of thing, but it is the law of the land as it were. I feel for ya man, I do.

Realistically - this is the truth. You are playing with a handicap - if your opponents refuse to knowledge this - find new opponents.

They'll never acknowledge it, as it diminishes their arm-chair generalship. Remember, BA were "fine" in 7th.

I think its likely a 7/10 chance we get a new SM dex after the last announced dex drops for Sisters of Battle.

They need points adjustment, fixed chapter tactics, new set of strategems, and just a general increase in lethality to keep up.

New round of codexes is inevitable. Question is just when and what in what order

I'm told the venerable dread and leviathan dread are good, so everything's great in marine land.

Martel732 wrote:
They'll never acknowledge it, as it diminishes their arm-chair generalship. Remember, BA were "fine" in 7th.

Well, BA were actually fine in 7th. compared to MOST things.
Its just a handful of things were absurdly OP and overshadowed all else.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They'll never acknowledge it, as it diminishes their arm-chair generalship. Remember, BA were "fine" in 7th.

Well, BA were actually fine in 7th. compared to MOST things.
Its just a handful of things were absurdly OP and overshadowed all else.

No one I played against used anything else. Handful becomes 80% as people adapt. I wasn't willing to spend the money and repaint. Am still largely unwilling to. Pay to win is bull$%%^&.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They'll never acknowledge it, as it diminishes their arm-chair generalship. Remember, BA were "fine" in 7th.

Well, BA were actually fine in 7th. compared to MOST things.
Its just a handful of things were absurdly OP and overshadowed all else.

IDK about that. As I recall BA were considered Codex marines -3 for the longest time. I still laugh at how unbelievably long it took their scouts to go from WS/BS3 to WS/BS4.

BA "Gladius" was a joke, too. But you get the idea.

Martel732 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I told them that, actually. Told them I own many primaris models that sit on the shelf. They can't be used at all after Drukari dropped. They didn't disagree with me, but couldn't openly agree.

I disagree that they can't be used. I've had some fun games with my Primaris Deathwatch force at my FLGS. I do however entirely agree that their place in a tournament is very limited. They, like codex space marines, can be used in and are entirely capable in more casual type games. The problem is getting that game set up. I set up games with my friends before hand frequently and trying to establish to the other what we consider competitive and non-competitive is a nightmare. It is a sad state for the army when to even attempt to have balanced game you have to be very specific about what kind of game you want to have. I can't walk into a game blind with my Space Marines or more guard or my dark eldar due to the wildly different power levels of so many armies and builds.

All my games are blind. No quarter. No mercy. No discussion.

Didn't the grand formation bonus give you a bonus you already had from the core demi-company or something?

I don't even fething know anymore. I'm trying to forget.

Primaris was a horrible idea. They would have been so much better off just making new-wave primarchs, from the geneseed of the fallen ones.

Then, adjust the buffs of all of these guys so it's not as strong but just requires that the model be alive and on the table. Then you don't have marines clustering together in easy-to-attack target blobs, but still getting some benefit from their super HQs, and not being as bland as "let's get MOAR RRERROLLSS"

I really get the impression that GW doesn't understand the relationship between the rules and the game.

All I can say is 15 pt disintegrator cannons. And GW expects marines to do anything.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I told them that, actually. Told them I own many primaris models that sit on the shelf. They can't be used at all after Drukari dropped. They didn't disagree with me, but couldn't openly agree.

I disagree that they can't be used. I've had some fun games with my Primaris Deathwatch force at my FLGS. I do however entirely agree that their place in a tournament is very limited. They, like codex space marines, can be used in and are entirely capable in more casual type games. The problem is getting that game set up. I set up games with my friends before hand frequently and trying to establish to the other what we consider competitive and non-competitive is a nightmare. It is a sad state for the army when to even attempt to have balanced game you have to be very specific about what kind of game you want to have. I can't walk into a game blind with my Space Marines or more guard or my dark eldar due to the wildly different power levels of so many armies and builds.

All my games are blind. No quarter. No mercy. No discussion.

Didn't the grand formation bonus give you a bonus you already had from the core demi-company or something?

Yeah. It literally had 0 thought put into it. I maintain Death Company from 7th were usable but otherwise it was for all intents and purposes Space Marines -1



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They'll never acknowledge it, as it diminishes their arm-chair generalship. Remember, BA were "fine" in 7th.

Well, BA were actually fine in 7th. compared to MOST things.
Its just a handful of things were absurdly OP and overshadowed all else.

They were easily one of the worst pre-Decurions, so I'm not sure what you're smoking. Even Grey Knights were better off.