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The video isn't a good example. The space marines are the main characters.

As I've been saying, and as many of you know, each army always does well in their own fluff (except IG and sometimes Tyranids).

Thanks for posting though Stormonu.

kombatwombat wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
"No, we'll take our buffs but NOBODY ELSE can get fixes" and a bunch of people either agreeing with it, and for all the arguing SM players are doing, not a single one speaking out against that.

Loath as I am to butt heads with you over this particular issue once again, do you really see a predominance of people saying ‘Marines should get a second pass BUT NOBODY ELSE’? Take out that one poster whose reputation precedes them, and it’s really just the OP. I agree with you that the OP saying that is wrong, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that most - or even many - Marine players have a similar opinion.

Your fatal misunderstanding here seems to be that you think I'm saying every Marine player does this. This is not the case, and it would make no sense, even less considering I play Marines myself. I'm simply saying that when these outlandish statements do happen, 90% of the time it's from Marine or Tau players, leaning heavily towards Marines. It's not a coincidence, and there's a lot of people agreeing with this, and I can be objective about this even as someone who shares miniatures with these people, as crazy as that sounds.


Acting like its just one guy on this specific point is disengenous. There's 3 posters in this thread alone outright co-signing it, and various other posters agreeing with them to different degrees, and not a single other SM player actually disagreeing with it other than myself. Yes, one of those 3 is Xenomancers, that doesn't make it not count - where's the Xenomancers for Tyranids? Or for Necrons, or Orks or anything? It's part of what I'm saying about more whining coming from SM players than anywhere else, and it keeps getting proven, over and over.

Another way of considering it is to look at the same complaint from different perspectives. For instance, the complaint

“Marines are underpowered and don’t play how one would expect. GW should take a second look at their Codex.’

elicits “If Marines get a second look, other Codexes should get another look too. It’s only fair.” Which is perfectly reasonable. None of the books are perfect, a second pass would help them all to varying degrees, and the Marine book is the oldest, most popular and one of the very worst, so it being first in line makes sense. But if you phrase the question as

“Marines are underpowered and don’t play how one would expect. GW should give them a 20% buff across the board so they can compete with the newer books.”

then the response “If Marines get a 20% buff, the other Codexes should too. It’s only fair.” is just...

That's not what's happening here. Are we asking for a 20% buff to Guilliman and Scouts? I thought we all agree that Marines have some competitive builds, just that we want more, by normalising the underpowered units. Why should it be a problem for other armies to also be able to use most the currently trash units in their dexes? The SM book has more entries than most so this is not going to hold them back in any way. Trying to lock down unit diversity for the sake of Marines being better than everyone for fluff accuracy or whatever stupid reason, just seems like terrible design to me, but maybe I'm not drinking the right kool-aid yet.

At what point do you start to admit that yes, there is a lot of ridiculous gak that gets propagated about the Marine books - because I feel like we're well and truly there.

 Mmmpi wrote:

The examples I gave have in game lore about why they work. Eldar are just that fast. I don't care if you disbelieve.

Lol, you don't get it do you? Let explain it to you slowly then. Anything organic moving at a speed fast enough to kill an entire tactical squad in less than a second, would TEAR ITSELF APART due to the G forces associated with accelerations and direction changing at that speed. Hell, anything mechanical moving at that speed would tear itself apart too. Even if the Eldar did have the ability to move that fast, if they tried to do it they would rip the flesh straight off their own bones due to inertia.

Now there's nothing I've read in the lore that leads me to believe the laws of physics don't apply to howling banshees. Maybe if they had a localized time field or something that made time pass normal for them, but much slower for everything else around them it might be doable but I have never heard of anything like that in the lore.

 Stormonu wrote:

Not the best, but from the sounds of the prose above, the Chaos marine didn't even have time to turn and regard his foe before the Warp Spider diced him, so at least the Aspect Warriors have very quick reactions - to appear, fire and with a slight tug eliminate a Marine before he can react.

Surprising a lone chaos marine is a LOT different then slicing up an entire tactical squad in less than a single second.

On topic. The other factions could use a pass too to buff up under-performing units, but the entire point of buffing space marines is because they are under-performing relative to most other factions. Buffing the other factions as well would defeat the purpose.

I think the overall point is, if marines need buffing to work in the game - fine, do it. Primaris got two wounds, if classic marines were switched over to use their statline, I wouldn't cry about it - though I would not prefer it (I'd rather the firepower creep be reigned in). Just get the points right.

But don't base it on the fluff. The various author's prose over 8 editions of 40K are too unreliable to make it the basis of any army's statistics.

w1zard wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

The examples I gave have in game lore about why they work. Eldar are just that fast. I don't care if you disbelieve.

Lol, you don't get it do you? Let explain it to you slowly then. Anything organic moving at a speed fast enough to kill an entire tactical squad in less than a second, would TEAR ITSELF APART due to the G forces associated with accelerations and direction changing at that speed. Hell, anything mechanical moving at that speed would tear itself apart too. Even if the Eldar did have the ability to move that fast, if they tried to do it they would rip the flesh straight off their own bones due to inertia.

Now there's nothing I've read in the lore that leads me to believe the laws of physics don't apply to howling banshees. Maybe if they had a localized time field or something that made time pass normal for them, but much slower for everything else around them it might be doable but I have never heard of anything like that in the lore.

Lol, you don't get it do you? Let me explain it to you slowly then. I know how physics work. I've said as much. I don't fething care however, what my real world physics book says when talking about a fantasy world (sci-fi, with a very few rare exceptions, is fantasy with pretend science.). The people who created the world this fluff exsits in says that eldar are that fast. So they're that fast. I say titans violate the square cube law. In the real world they do. In fiction, the writer can do or say what they want. GW says they don't. They gave a mumbo-jumbo reason for it. They didn't for their space elves. If GW writes want eldar to be fast enough to jump out of a WS moving at a 'leisurely' 200km per hour, kill two guys, and step back in, then GW is right. It's not the real world. GW decides where and when to apply physics.
Also, I remember what I read. It was a Warp Spider Exarch, who killed a combat squad of marines. One of the two chapter approved. Either 2000, or 2002. The SS/WS example is in that one as well. I can't give you a page number, because As I said before my books are on another Continent. I know for a fact that I've read other examples like in since, but I still don't remember the exact book.

Now, can we get back to talking about how to un-nerf a unit that never got nerfed?

How can people say that warhammer doesnt follow anime tropes when it is based in overpowered fluff.
Laws of physics dont apply if the rule of cool is more important. Not defending those Eldar examples because I havent read them. But I woulndt be surprised if they exist.

On topic wise, I still think we’ll see a 2nd wave of codices in the near future – however, I just hope it is done logically, and waits until after the Big FAQ2 has been tested a bit to ensure things are on the right track.

Once that is done and things settle down even more, I can fully expect Chapter Approved to start the initial changes, followed by the Codex wave. The big FAQs would then start to die down in terms of their overwhelming changes and would go back to being more general faq updates.

Releasing more Codices without taking FAQ2 into account will only piss off a lot of people.

As for the state of Marines – I agree with the argument that they need to be more “killy”. Bolt rounds are meant to rip through power armour, let alone lesser armour, yet currently they don’t even come close. Likewise, marines are meant to be able to be able to rip through squads of standard humans within seconds, yet they can’t do that either.

The fix for me initially is that the standard marine gets +1 attack, -2 ap (something would have to be adjusted for the Thousand Sons – and, let’s face it, nowhere ever is it recorded that a Guardsman has survived a direct hit from a bolter… I don’t think… could also change to -1 ap but I don’t think that would change much or “feel” any different.) and they would also be equipped with a free chainsword/combat blade that gives them an additional attack.

Like it or not, I think marines are in the right place “durability” wise in terms of t4, 3+ save, as they are meant to shrug off lasgun fire and 90% of shuriken fire, but, they still get wrecked by bolter, plasma and melta etc weaponry. The only issue currently, is that they are costed a little high for essentially being 1 attack, 1 shot models. Up their attack, their ap and basic weaponry and maybe, maybe a point down in cost, and go from there.

Of course, all standard bolt weaponry would change to match across all armies and some other weapons would also have to change – i.e Heavy bolters, but I think it’d go a fair way towards giving marines a chance would making them “unbeatable”.

I also agree that BobbyG’s re-roll wounds aura should drop to a re-roll 1’s, along with him getting a points reduction.

Y'know, a lot of these complaints about the Marine 'dex apply to more than just the Marine dex. For example:

Dex doesn't match Fluff.
The Marine fluff has them winning most of their engagements. They lose more often than they win.

The CWE fluff has them losing most of their engagements. They win more often than they lose.

Experience.
Terminators have hundreds of years of experience, and so should be WS/BS2.

Aspect Warriors have thousands of years of experience, and are still WS/BS2.

You could say, shorter lifespan makes it more impactful. But Crissis Suits are similarly veterans, but are BS*4*.

Form of their OP gak.
The claim keeps coming up that when SM have had good options - Bobby G/Razorbacks, Gladius, Skyhammer, Grav Bikers, DevCents, Obsec Spam, etc - that they're always stuff the SM player doesn't want to play.

That's a lot of variety, and most of them actually did spam PA Marines. Pure Guard does seem closer to what many Guard want to play. But other factions are normally much more cookie-cutter when they're top dog.

So, SM are actually in the bottom half again. It doesn't happen often, and I do hope it gets corrected. But these threads don't end when they are top dog. How many "Tacs are worst troops" or "SM is worst book" or "SM needs fix" threads do we see when Marines are top dog? How many do we see when Marines fielding Tacs are top dog? Just as many.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit:
I really like that DoWII intro video. It was before I got into 40k, but it was great to see.

Reflecting on it, though, makes it even greater. It shows the comparative strengths of Eldar and SM. Aspect Warriors are clearly able to go toe-to-toe with Space Marines.

You get to see so many units doing their "thing", and the only one who feels shortchanged is the Ranger (so I snipe the guy... in the chest? Why there?). The rest all feel iconic (not in order, from memory):
-SM Tacs do their Troop thing
-SM with a Heavy Bolter destroys a Ranger
-ASM drop in and hurt
-Dread, if it gets to CC, is a beast
-Banshees howl and charge
-Warp Spider is really fast and agile
-Captain overcomes Farseer up close
-Farseer was more concerned with greater events - and knows what's coming

A great look at comparative OPness.

Bharring wrote:
Y'know, a lot of these complaints about the Marine 'dex apply to more than just the Marine dex. For example:

Dex doesn't match Fluff.
The Marine fluff has them winning most of their engagements. They lose more often than they win.

The CWE fluff has them losing most of their engagements. They win more often than they lose.

Experience.
Terminators have hundreds of years of experience, and so should be WS/BS2.

Aspect Warriors have thousands of years of experience, and are still WS/BS2.

You could say, shorter lifespan makes it more impactful. But Crissis Suits are similarly veterans, but are BS*4*.

Form of their OP gak.
The claim keeps coming up that when SM have had good options - Bobby G/Razorbacks, Gladius, Skyhammer, Grav Bikers, DevCents, Obsec Spam, etc - that they're always stuff the SM player doesn't want to play.

That's a lot of variety, and most of them actually did spam PA Marines. Pure Guard does seem closer to what many Guard want to play. But other factions are normally much more cookie-cutter when they're top dog.

So, SM are actually in the bottom half again. It doesn't happen often, and I do hope it gets corrected. But these threads don't end when they are top dog. How many "Tacs are worst troops" or "SM is worst book" or "SM needs fix" threads do we see when Marines are top dog? How many do we see when Marines fielding Tacs are top dog? Just as many.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit:
I really like that DoWII intro video. It was before I got into 40k, but it was great to see.

Reflecting on it, though, makes it even greater. It shows the comparative strengths of Eldar and SM. Aspect Warriors are clearly able to go toe-to-toe with Space Marines.

You get to see so many units doing their "thing", and the only one who feels shortchanged is the Ranger (so I snipe the guy... in the chest? Why there?). The rest all feel iconic (not in order, from memory):
-SM Tacs do their Troop thing
-SM with a Heavy Bolter destroys a Ranger
-ASM drop in and hurt
-Dread, if it gets to CC, is a beast
-Banshees howl and charge
-Warp Spider is really fast and agile
-Captain overcomes Farseer up close
-Farseer was more concerned with greater events - and knows what's coming

A great look at comparative OPness.

You snipe in the chest because :
Bigger target
Triangle of death
Because statistically humans survive 10% of all headshots that are not Center mass and the head is comparativly a small and particulary durable body part.

Aspect warriors are also crap in 8th. Your point?

Marines do not perform like a 13 pp model. In fact, im having more and more games where they are nor significantly better than guardsmen. Seeing as how the firepower in the game is only going one direction, and that's up, that presents a quandry.

Not Online,
I didn't know that. I believed that bows, and later guns, typically aimed for the chest as being off by a little still hits. But I'm not expert on the subject.

However, this was Space Elf snipers targetting someone obviously in Power Armor. I assumed they'd shoot for a "weakpoint", and would assume center mass is the strongest part of the Marine, especially in his armor.

It's quite possible that all other areas are reinforced for this reason, so it's still the wisest target. But it's not like the Ranger doesn't know what a Marine or Power Armor is.

Bharring wrote:
Not Online,
I didn't know that. I believed that bows, and later guns, typically aimed for the chest as being off by a little still hits. But I'm not expert on the subject.

However, this was Space Elf snipers targetting someone obviously in Power Armor. I assumed they'd shoot for a "weakpoint", and would assume center mass is the strongest part of the Marine, especially in his armor.

It's quite possible that all other areas are reinforced for this reason, so it's still the wisest target. But it's not like the Ranger doesn't know what a Marine or Power Armor is.

The main body is the best armored part, but also the marines weakspot. Consider this: a marine has two hearts, ergo he will need two aortas connected toghether somewhere in his upper body. Now a splinter does most damage through speed so mainly whilest the splinters exits the targets body, where it rips appart vital parts. Additionally, the lower part of the abdomen of space marines armor torwards his armored legs is especcialy vulnerable since there the breast plate stops to provide movement abbility.
Secondly a marine has still just one spine, ergo if you destroy it via a hit you can seriously cripple his abilities to move.

BrianDavion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Space Marine whine threads always inevitably devolve into fluff debates, as when you pull away the veil, it's the core reason driving the demand for buffs. That's why some people in here are literally against other armies getting a fix to their crappy units after Space Marine's get theirs - only Space Marine's deserve this.

I mean, are you trying to argue that space marines (outside of a couple of viable builds) aren't underpowered right now? Because they kind of are. Space marine whining is just heard the most because they are the largest portion of the playerbase.

No, I'm saying that some people in this thread literally said that AFTER Space Marines are buffed and units are fixed, no OTHER ARMY should get the same treatment. Cause Space Marines.

other then Marines are there any other armies whose table top performance just doesn't feel like it matches the fluff?most space marine players who want revisions to marines I think WANT an army thats out numbered most of the time but manages toi by dint of "being awesome" make up for it. giving every army a buff defeats the point

I have to be mis-interpreting what you said. Are you saying that marines should be buffed because they should be able to overcome overwhelming odds, but other armies shouldnt get buffed if theyre too weak as well?

Martel732 wrote:
Aspect warriors are also crap in 8th. Your point?

Marines do not perform like a 13 pp model. In fact, im having more and more games where they are nor significantly better than guardsmen. Seeing as how the firepower in the game is only going one direction, and that's up, that presents a quandry.

That is my issue. If they performed to their points, I wouldn't care about their statline. Perhaps drop Primaris down to 13 ppm and regular Marines to like 9 ppm and call it good. Oh, and double the points of any multishot weapon that does set 2+ damage per shot.

So you're saying +1 S, T, BS, and LD are worth 0 points?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Aspect warriors are also crap in 8th. Your point?

Marines do not perform like a 13 pp model. In fact, im having more and more games where they are nor significantly better than guardsmen. Seeing as how the firepower in the game is only going one direction, and that's up, that presents a quandry.

That is my issue. If they performed to their points, I wouldn't care about their statline. Perhaps drop Primaris down to 13 ppm and regular Marines to like 9 ppm and call it good. Oh, and double the points of any multishot weapon that does set 2+ damage per shot.

so a lascannon should be 25pts and a twin lascannon should be 100pts?

I count my blessings every day that nobody on dakka is on GWs design team.

THIS BLANKET NERF WILL FIX EVERYTHING ITS SO SIMPLE WHY IS GW SO DUMB???

I just can't get behind the fluff = crunch.

To a point the theme/feel of the army should be represented but if everyone was "movie marines" Magnus would just psychic explode entire armies as soon as he showed up on the battle field. Cool in a book, not so much fun in a wargame...

As for why marine players don't speak up when other marine players are going off the deep end? That's a really good question. When I read those quoted post it does strike me as crazy that anyone would be against other armies achieving more reasonable interior balance.

But I think my idea of achieving internal balance is probably different than people that play those armies (hammer down the OP units instead of buffing the underperforming units) but this opinion will probably change if marines had units that were performing like those OP ones (imagine if we could spam guillimans...).

It's just hard for me to get behind making armies more internally balanced when they are already more externally powerful. It's like people asking for buffs to dark eldar. There's definitely units in that book that are underpowered but bringing those units up to the level of brokenness of the rest of that book just feels wrong (but rationally makes sense and could probably be proven mathematically.) There's something to be said for the idea that x units are above the power curve but are countered balanced by y units being underpowered. Problem is, with the currently FOC there's no reason to take those y units and you just end up fighting x's...

In a great world there would be tactical advantages to all units and their utility/power would be determined by the role they are playing in your army and how your strategy leverages their strengths and weaknesses. 40k just doesn't have that level of tactical granularity to support that across the hundreds of units combined with the relative shallow level of model interaction.

In the long run, I just don't have faith in GW to get it right. If marines end up getting buffed it will probably be too much and then we'll end up in some sort of arms race where other dexes will get left behind and then buffed and next thing we know those 20 wound str 40 tacticals are a real thing.

I'd rather GW nerf stuff all the way back down to the marine level but that won't happen because it doesn't help sell models and people don't react well to their models getting nerfed...

the_scotsman wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Aspect warriors are also crap in 8th. Your point?

Marines do not perform like a 13 pp model. In fact, im having more and more games where they are nor significantly better than guardsmen. Seeing as how the firepower in the game is only going one direction, and that's up, that presents a quandry.

That is my issue. If they performed to their points, I wouldn't care about their statline. Perhaps drop Primaris down to 13 ppm and regular Marines to like 9 ppm and call it good. Oh, and double the points of any multishot weapon that does set 2+ damage per shot.

so a lascannon should be 25pts and a twin lascannon should be 100pts?

I count my blessings every day that nobody on dakka is on GWs design team.

THIS BLANKET NERF WILL FIX EVERYTHING ITS SO SIMPLE WHY IS GW SO DUMB???

I mean it would help cause a DE player could probably only bring 1 ravage with disintegrator cannons

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Aspect warriors are also crap in 8th. Your point?

Marines do not perform like a 13 pp model. In fact, im having more and more games where they are nor significantly better than guardsmen. Seeing as how the firepower in the game is only going one direction, and that's up, that presents a quandry.

That is my issue. If they performed to their points, I wouldn't care about their statline. Perhaps drop Primaris down to 13 ppm and regular Marines to like 9 ppm and call it good. Oh, and double the points of any multishot weapon that does set 2+ damage per shot.

Oh, good. That suncannon loadout on my wraithknight will be 276 extra points now, instead of just the 138.

the_scotsman wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Aspect warriors are also crap in 8th. Your point?

Marines do not perform like a 13 pp model. In fact, im having more and more games where they are nor significantly better than guardsmen. Seeing as how the firepower in the game is only going one direction, and that's up, that presents a quandry.

That is my issue. If they performed to their points, I wouldn't care about their statline. Perhaps drop Primaris down to 13 ppm and regular Marines to like 9 ppm and call it good. Oh, and double the points of any multishot weapon that does set 2+ damage per shot.

so a lascannon should be 25pts and a twin lascannon should be 100pts?

I count my blessings every day that nobody on dakka is on GWs design team.

THIS BLANKET NERF WILL FIX EVERYTHING ITS SO SIMPLE WHY IS GW SO DUMB???

No...Lascannons don't do 2+ damage base. They have variable damage, which is...somewhat factored into it. Primarily, the weapons that need to be targeted are weapons like Disintigrator Cannons. Probably not double points like I said, but a lot of multi-damage weapons need to be redone. But mostly if Marines are priced appropriately, the weapon changes aren't as necessary. A 5 pt reduction on basically all Marine infantry would probably suffice. And really, GW gets more money for it, so it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

 Mmmpi wrote:
So you're saying +1 S, T, BS, and LD are worth 0 points?

}

WS, not BS. And in the majority of games, this is accurate. So make it 10 pts for the minority of games where those stats matter.

Martel732 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
So you're saying +1 S, T, BS, and LD are worth 0 points?

}

WS, not BS. And in the majority of games, this is accurate. So make it 10 pts for the minority of games where those stats matter.

Why don't these stats matter in the majority of games?

Martel732 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
So you're saying +1 S, T, BS, and LD are worth 0 points?

}

WS, not BS. And in the majority of games, this is accurate. So make it 10 pts for the minority of games where those stats matter.

Wait, you think going from T3 to T4 only matters in a "minority" of games? You must not face many S3-4 or S6-7 weapons...you know, like bolters, lasguns, shuriken catapults/cannons, admech infantry guns, plasma guns...

And that's not to say anything about the rest of those stats.

 fraser1191 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Aspect warriors are also crap in 8th. Your point?

Marines do not perform like a 13 pp model. In fact, im having more and more games where they are nor significantly better than guardsmen. Seeing as how the firepower in the game is only going one direction, and that's up, that presents a quandry.

That is my issue. If they performed to their points, I wouldn't care about their statline. Perhaps drop Primaris down to 13 ppm and regular Marines to like 9 ppm and call it good. Oh, and double the points of any multishot weapon that does set 2+ damage per shot.

so a lascannon should be 25pts and a twin lascannon should be 100pts?

I count my blessings every day that nobody on dakka is on GWs design team.

THIS BLANKET NERF WILL FIX EVERYTHING ITS SO SIMPLE WHY IS GW SO DUMB???

I mean it would help cause a DE player could probably only bring 1 ravage with disintegrator cannons

And marines would be in a much better spot if a space marine with grav cannon costed 67 points instead of the currently stupidly weak 41.

This is usually the time in the suggestion of the dumb, overly heavyhanded blanket nerf suggestion where OP comes back to clarify that everything in HIS army is perfectly balanced and he intended his suggestion to only be applied to everyone ELSES army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nurgle5 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
So you're saying +1 S, T, BS, and LD are worth 0 points?

}

WS, not BS. And in the majority of games, this is accurate. So make it 10 pts for the minority of games where those stats matter.

Why don't these stats matter in the majority of games?

because Honor Does Not Permit marine players to admit that marines could be fairly easily fixed by relatively minor balance changes like a shift from 13ppm to 11ppm and a few QOL adjustments to stratagem costs and traits applying to all models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Aspect warriors are also crap in 8th. Your point?

Marines do not perform like a 13 pp model. In fact, im having more and more games where they are nor significantly better than guardsmen. Seeing as how the firepower in the game is only going one direction, and that's up, that presents a quandry.

That is my issue. If they performed to their points, I wouldn't care about their statline. Perhaps drop Primaris down to 13 ppm and regular Marines to like 9 ppm and call it good. Oh, and double the points of any multishot weapon that does set 2+ damage per shot.

so a lascannon should be 25pts and a twin lascannon should be 100pts?

I count my blessings every day that nobody on dakka is on GWs design team.

THIS BLANKET NERF WILL FIX EVERYTHING ITS SO SIMPLE WHY IS GW SO DUMB???

No...Lascannons don't do 2+ damage base. They have variable damage, which is...somewhat factored into it. Primarily, the weapons that need to be targeted are weapons like Disintigrator Cannons. Probably not double points like I said, but a lot of multi-damage weapons need to be redone. But mostly if Marines are priced appropriately, the weapon changes aren't as necessary. A 5 pt reduction on basically all Marine infantry would probably suffice. And really, GW gets more money for it, so it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

8pt marines, 9pt sisters of battle.

Sounds good to me!

 nurgle5 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
So you're saying +1 S, T, BS, and LD are worth 0 points?

}

WS, not BS. And in the majority of games, this is accurate. So make it 10 pts for the minority of games where those stats matter.

Why don't these stats matter in the majority of games?

Because my squads are getting shot to death at range before they can use most of them.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Aspect warriors are also crap in 8th. Your point?

Marines do not perform like a 13 pp model. In fact, im having more and more games where they are nor significantly better than guardsmen. Seeing as how the firepower in the game is only going one direction, and that's up, that presents a quandry.

That is my issue. If they performed to their points, I wouldn't care about their statline. Perhaps drop Primaris down to 13 ppm and regular Marines to like 9 ppm and call it good. Oh, and double the points of any multishot weapon that does set 2+ damage per shot.

9 points for a tac marine huh? I guess I'll go buy a few more boxes then, cuz I'm gonna bring like 120 to a 2000 point game. . .

Ridiculous.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
So you're saying +1 S, T, BS, and LD are worth 0 points?

}

WS, not BS. And in the majority of games, this is accurate. So make it 10 pts for the minority of games where those stats matter.

Wait, you think going from T3 to T4 only matters in a "minority" of games? You must not face many S3-4 or S6-7 weapons...you know, like bolters, lasguns, shuriken catapults/cannons, admech infantry guns, plasma guns...

And that's not to say anything about the rest of those stats.

Yes, I do. The single pip wound shift for a subset of available weapons is not worth the increase from 9 to 13 ppm. A sister has a 77.8% chance to survive a boltgun hit. A marine has a 83.4% chance. That's not worth an extra 4 ppm. It just isn't. Also, acts of faith are more useful than most chapter tactics. The rest of the stats don't matter before the models are too fragile and don't live to use them.

BA even get +1 to wound when charging, but this tactic is almost useless as nothing lives long enough to assault. DoA is absolutely hamstrung by the FAQ and Agents of Vect.

Martel732 wrote:
Because my squads are getting shot to death at range before they can use most of them.

If we're basing this on personal experience the players at my FLGS seem to be getting plenty use out of those stats, hell the extra Toughness comes in handy even when they are being shot to death at range

Maybe you should use some LoS blocking terrain.

Martel732 wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
So you're saying +1 S, T, BS, and LD are worth 0 points?

}

WS, not BS. And in the majority of games, this is accurate. So make it 10 pts for the minority of games where those stats matter.

Wait, you think going from T3 to T4 only matters in a "minority" of games? You must not face many S3-4 or S6-7 weapons...you know, like bolters, lasguns, shuriken catapults/cannons, admech infantry guns, plasma guns...

And that's not to say anything about the rest of those stats.

Yes, I do. The single pip wound shift for a subset of available weapons is not worth the increase from 9 to 13 ppm. A sister has a 77.8% chance to survive a boltgun hit. A marine has a 83.4% chance. That's not worth an extra 4 ppm. It just isn't. Also, acts of faith are more useful than most chapter tactics. The rest of the stats don't matter before the models are too fragile and don't live to use them.

BA even get +1 to wound when charging, but this tactic is almost useless as nothing lives long enough to assault. DoA is absolutely hamstrung by the FAQ and Agents of Vect.

So should Khorne Bezerkers also cost 10ppm, because the only stat they get over a sister of battle that matters is one point of toughness? Since acts of faith are so much better than legion tactics, and they won't ever get to use any of those melee stats..

Not enough. See the above math.

We use LoS blocking terrain. They only need one shot. And IG ignores LoS blockers. Drukhari move around them. LoS blockers are very overrated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
So you're saying +1 S, T, BS, and LD are worth 0 points?

}

WS, not BS. And in the majority of games, this is accurate. So make it 10 pts for the minority of games where those stats matter.

Wait, you think going from T3 to T4 only matters in a "minority" of games? You must not face many S3-4 or S6-7 weapons...you know, like bolters, lasguns, shuriken catapults/cannons, admech infantry guns, plasma guns...

And that's not to say anything about the rest of those stats.

Yes, I do. The single pip wound shift for a subset of available weapons is not worth the increase from 9 to 13 ppm. A sister has a 77.8% chance to survive a boltgun hit. A marine has a 83.4% chance. That's not worth an extra 4 ppm. It just isn't. Also, acts of faith are more useful than most chapter tactics. The rest of the stats don't matter before the models are too fragile and don't live to use them.

BA even get +1 to wound when charging, but this tactic is almost useless as nothing lives long enough to assault. DoA is absolutely hamstrung by the FAQ and Agents of Vect.

So should Khorne Bezerkers also cost 10ppm, because the only stat they get over a sister of battle that matters is one point of toughness? Since acts of faith are so much better than legion tactics, and they won't ever get to use any of those melee stats..

Maybe. It would have to be playtested. Once people figured out how to game against AL shenanigans, berserkers disappeared for me.