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IMO, +1 on one or two CC stats is worth 0 points.

Here is why: In comparison to 7th edition, melee got much worse mathematically. No more +1 attack per model after charging, power weapons didn't get significantly better, power fists got worse, because if you were a bit lucky, a space marine champ with a fist could kill a tank, while in 8th, the fist can deal 6 damage, which is half of a tanks wounds. Some heavy infantry or bikes got two or even three wounds.

All in all, melee lost a lot of cadence, shooting gained a lot, and melee got a lot worse against tanks and multi wound models as well.

 Billagio wrote:
80% of my boyz never get to swing. I think they should be 4 ppm now. Does that sound ok? Great!

That's a much larger percentage decrease than my proposal. You'd go to 5 ppm, but that's assuming boyz are overcosted to begin with. I personally can't believe anyone legitimately thinks marines are worth 13 ppm. You're losing points so fast as soon as any AP enters the picture, and only swing once in CC. It's laughable. They're paying 45% more than a sister for nowhere near 45% more survivability from T4.

Ah, but Ork boys have a proportionally larger amount of CC stats (3+ WS, 2A, reroll charge on a 6ppm model) and exceptionally poor shooting so I would argue that they need a bigger points drop

 Billagio wrote:
Ah, but Ork boys have a proportionally larger amount of CC stats (3+ WS, 2A, reroll charge on a 6ppm model) and exceptionally poor shooting so I would argue that they need a bigger points drop

Maybe. I'd playtest it. At the same time, I'd argue that there are far more weapons that remove marine points far more efficiently than Ork points. Not paying for armor you don't get to use is the way to go in 8th.

Dissy cannons are auto-win vs marines. Does that hold for orks? A heavy bolter is a dissy cannon to you.

Everything is auto-win vs orks currently :(

Orks are strong with a 3 hr time limit.

Not so much in a FLGS game.

I love that a DP can't challenge out my PF Sarge, now. That rocks.

I hate that the PF isn't much of a threat anymore.

 Billagio wrote:
Everything is auto-win vs orks currently :(

Flatly untrue in tournament land, Orks have been doing overall better than a few codex armies... and outside ITC have some major tournament wins.

I would love for GW to go to the extreme and make all weapon costs for every unit. A tactical sargeant should pay max 4 points for a power fist.

He'd still cost 17 ppm, which is too much sadly.

kombatwombat wrote:
Well this thread has certainly gone down the rabbit hole.

Let me try this a little differently. Say we did go yup, everybody is now Primaris, +1 Wound and Attack for all Astartes of any kind, -1 AP on all their standard chainswords/combat knives/Bolt pistols/bolters/Stormbolters, no more restrictions on Primaris getting in transports, your basic 2W/2A AP-1 Bolter Tactical Marine costs 16 or 17 points. I’ve now got every buff I’ve been campaigning for. And it looks... kinda like 1-2pt cheaper Primaris Marines.

So I ask you this: does the prospect of having to face an all-Primaris, slightly cheaper army frighten you? Is that an army you wouldn’t want to face because it’s too powerful? I’d be shocked if that were the case.

By comparison, let’s say we gave Ork Boyz an extra wound each and bumped them up a point or two. Does the prospect of facing a 2W Ork army frighten you? Because it scares the crap outta me.

How many different times are you going to word it before you stop and read for a second to absorb the fact that absolutely nobody is asking for a good unit like Boyz to be given buffs? On top of that, nobody on either side of the argument here is asking for costlier Marines even if they do get buffed.

If you feel like nobody is picking up what you're putting down no matter how many times you keep saying it, it's probably because it's not even the tiniest bit relevant to a single argument being made here. As far as I can tell all you are doing is debating some statement you said yourself that nobody else agreed with.

Trollbert wrote:
IMO, +1 on one or two CC stats is worth 0 points.

Here is why: In comparison to 7th edition, melee got much worse mathematically. No more +1 attack per model after charging, power weapons didn't get significantly better, power fists got worse, because if you were a bit lucky, a space marine champ with a fist could kill a tank, while in 8th, the fist can deal 6 damage, which is half of a tanks wounds. Some heavy infantry or bikes got two or even three wounds.

All in all, melee lost a lot of cadence, shooting gained a lot, and melee got a lot worse against tanks and multi wound models as well.

But marines can shoot to full effect AND charge in a a single turn now, unlike in 7th. Instead of one or the other, they get to do both. Very important.

Martel732 wrote:
He'd still cost 17 ppm, which is too much sadly.

Assuming 11p tacticals, it would be 15p vs 25p that costs now. Much more in line with his actual value.

Martel732 wrote:I'm not imaging 80% of my marines never getting to swing.

Well, true, but what're the phrases that people often use?

"Your experience doesn't matter; the plural of anecdote isn't evidence; a poor craftsmen blames his tools; the problem is the player not the game; ..."

I can think of a few more.

 Galas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
He'd still cost 17 ppm, which is too much sadly.

Assuming 11p tacticals, it would be 15p vs 25p that costs now. Much more in line with his actual value.

If we include 11 ppm, then that's probably the best we can do.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Trollbert wrote:
IMO, +1 on one or two CC stats is worth 0 points.

Here is why: In comparison to 7th edition, melee got much worse mathematically. No more +1 attack per model after charging, power weapons didn't get significantly better, power fists got worse, because if you were a bit lucky, a space marine champ with a fist could kill a tank, while in 8th, the fist can deal 6 damage, which is half of a tanks wounds. Some heavy infantry or bikes got two or even three wounds.

All in all, melee lost a lot of cadence, shooting gained a lot, and melee got a lot worse against tanks and multi wound models as well.

But marines can shoot to full effect AND charge in a a single turn now, unlike in 7th. Instead of one or the other, they get to do both. Very important.

If your marines have a bolt pistol and a chain sword, they made 3 attacks in 7th (1 base, 1 for pistol and melee weapon and 1 for the charge). In 8th edition, they make 2 attacks and 1 shot.

I wish it were important. But it really isn't.

Trollbert wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Trollbert wrote:
IMO, +1 on one or two CC stats is worth 0 points.

Here is why: In comparison to 7th edition, melee got much worse mathematically. No more +1 attack per model after charging, power weapons didn't get significantly better, power fists got worse, because if you were a bit lucky, a space marine champ with a fist could kill a tank, while in 8th, the fist can deal 6 damage, which is half of a tanks wounds. Some heavy infantry or bikes got two or even three wounds.

All in all, melee lost a lot of cadence, shooting gained a lot, and melee got a lot worse against tanks and multi wound models as well.

But marines can shoot to full effect AND charge in a a single turn now, unlike in 7th. Instead of one or the other, they get to do both. Very important.

If your marines have a bolt pistol and a chain sword, they made 3 attacks in 7th (1 base, 1 for pistol and melee weapon and 1 for the charge). In 8th edition, they make 2 attacks and 1 shot.

And a Tactical Marine can fire at one target with bolters, another target with Plasma, another target with Las, and charge two other targets and stop them from firing. In 7th you could attack one target only (with very few exceptions). Huge difference, and if you charged two targets you lost your bonus attack. In 8th your bolters don't have to shoot the tank they can't hurt. Your Lascannon doesn't have to shoot guardsmen. They don't have to charge the berzerkers they just shot at, and can charge the cultists instead, or whatever. The flexibility has increased tremendously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I wish it were important. But it really isn't.

Tell that to the smashed Tau faces from my last game.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Trollbert wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Trollbert wrote:
IMO, +1 on one or two CC stats is worth 0 points.

Here is why: In comparison to 7th edition, melee got much worse mathematically. No more +1 attack per model after charging, power weapons didn't get significantly better, power fists got worse, because if you were a bit lucky, a space marine champ with a fist could kill a tank, while in 8th, the fist can deal 6 damage, which is half of a tanks wounds. Some heavy infantry or bikes got two or even three wounds.

All in all, melee lost a lot of cadence, shooting gained a lot, and melee got a lot worse against tanks and multi wound models as well.

But marines can shoot to full effect AND charge in a a single turn now, unlike in 7th. Instead of one or the other, they get to do both. Very important.

If your marines have a bolt pistol and a chain sword, they made 3 attacks in 7th (1 base, 1 for pistol and melee weapon and 1 for the charge). In 8th edition, they make 2 attacks and 1 shot.

And a Tactical Marine can fire at one target with bolters, another target with Plasma, another target with Las, and charge two other targets and stop them from firing. In 7th you could attack one target only (with very few exceptions). Huge difference, and if you charged two targets you lost your bonus attack. In 8th your bolters don't have to shoot the tank they can't hurt. Your Lascannon doesn't have to shoot guardsmen. They don't have to charge the berzerkers they just shot at, and can charge the cultists instead, or whatever. The flexibility has increased tremendously.

That's true, but how does this affect how much melee stats are worth?
Apart from that, most infantry troop units didn't get more expensive, so every army profits from that.

Insectium7, not to downplay a game I didnt saw but how do you even charge Tau? I learned the bad way to not charge directly a Tau castle with 6 Custodes guardians vs 20 firewarrios, a fiireblade and 2 missilesides.
What a masacre... For me.

I learned the same way to not deepstrike 5 custodes guardians near a guilliman bloob of intercessors with stalkers.

Trollbert wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Trollbert wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Trollbert wrote:
IMO, +1 on one or two CC stats is worth 0 points.

Here is why: In comparison to 7th edition, melee got much worse mathematically. No more +1 attack per model after charging, power weapons didn't get significantly better, power fists got worse, because if you were a bit lucky, a space marine champ with a fist could kill a tank, while in 8th, the fist can deal 6 damage, which is half of a tanks wounds. Some heavy infantry or bikes got two or even three wounds.

All in all, melee lost a lot of cadence, shooting gained a lot, and melee got a lot worse against tanks and multi wound models as well.

But marines can shoot to full effect AND charge in a a single turn now, unlike in 7th. Instead of one or the other, they get to do both. Very important.

If your marines have a bolt pistol and a chain sword, they made 3 attacks in 7th (1 base, 1 for pistol and melee weapon and 1 for the charge). In 8th edition, they make 2 attacks and 1 shot.

And a Tactical Marine can fire at one target with bolters, another target with Plasma, another target with Las, and charge two other targets and stop them from firing. In 7th you could attack one target only (with very few exceptions). Huge difference, and if you charged two targets you lost your bonus attack. In 8th your bolters don't have to shoot the tank they can't hurt. Your Lascannon doesn't have to shoot guardsmen. They don't have to charge the berzerkers they just shot at, and can charge the cultists instead, or whatever. The flexibility has increased tremendously.

That's true, but how does this affect how much melee stats are worth?
Apart from that, most infantry troop units didn't get more expensive, so every army profits from that.

Marines subtly more than most actually, as their guys have the stats(ish) for both and have mixed gear. Orks and Nids had Assault Weapons anyways, and could therefore do both. Aspect Warriors tended to have only one type of weapon, so don't benefit as much from engaging in multirole actions (Howling Banshees can now pick a different shooting target with their pistols, yaaay...). Because marines are more generalist and often have mixed gear, it's a little boost worth mentioning.

Another interesting thing is that hitting in CC changed. Marines hit everything on a 3+ now. Prior to 8th it was a WS comparison and marines often hit on 4's and occasionally 5's. Anything that was formerly WS 4+ is now hit on 3s instead of 4s, for example. It's not the same as an extra attack for charging, but it's another interesting shift.

 Galas wrote:
Insectium7, not to downplay a game I didnt saw but how do you even charge Tau? I learned the bad way to not charge directly a Tau castle with 6 Custodes guardians vs 20 firewarrios, a fiireblade and 2 missilesides.
What a masacre... For me.

I learned the same way to not deepstrike 5 custodes guardians near a guilliman bloob of intercessors with stalkers.

Bodyblock with a Rhino. They can only Supporting Fire (or whatever it is called) once, even if the target dies - only the unit actually being charged is entitled to overwatch more than once.

 SHUPPET wrote:

On top of that, nobody on either side of the argument here is asking for costlier Marines even if they do get buffed.

*Slowly raises hand*

I don't think 11pt tac marines are the way to go. I think buffing the basic marine statline to 2W and 2A and giving them -1ap on their bolters is a much better way of buffing them. Contrary to the other fellow in here I do think that 11pt tac marines will turn them into a horde army, or at least hordier then marines were ever meant to be.

Unfortunately a 2W, 2A, marine with a bolt rifle is too good for 13 pts. Their cost will have to be raised to 16-18 points, which I am perfectly fine with BTW, because it makes marines seem more like "badass elite" army that they actually are in the fluff, which was my whole point about the fluff to begin with.

Scouts can stay at 1W and 1A and be chaff.

8th ed has turned everyone into horde, whether they should be or not. Elites just die. Cheaper is better. Embrace it.

Martel732 wrote:
8th ed has turned everyone into horde, whether they should be or not. Elites just die.

If "elite armies" were actually pointed appropriately that wouldn't be the case.

 Galas wrote:
Insectium7, not to downplay a game I didnt saw but how do you even charge Tau? I learned the bad way to not charge directly a Tau castle with 6 Custodes guardians vs 20 firewarrios, a fiireblade and 2 missilesides.
What a masacre... For me.

I learned the same way to not deepstrike 5 custodes guardians near a guilliman bloob of intercessors with stalkers.

My two cents. I'm going to play against my friend's tau next week with my small Blood Angels Force. My plan was to bring Captain Smash with the relic jump pack that rerolls charges and prevents overwatch. To cover the Sang Guard I was planning on bring Reivers with them on the drop (or just drop the Reivers in and have Guard use On wings of fire) to throw stun grenades that prevent overwatch as well.
While not foolproof and highly likely to be countered by good positioning of the castle, there's at least a way. If you don't play BA then I have no idea how to engage on them either.

 Mmmpi wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

The examples I gave have in game lore about why they work. Eldar are just that fast. I don't care if you disbelieve.

Lol, you don't get it do you? Let explain it to you slowly then. Anything organic moving at a speed fast enough to kill an entire tactical squad in less than a second, would TEAR ITSELF APART due to the G forces associated with accelerations and direction changing at that speed. Hell, anything mechanical moving at that speed would tear itself apart too. Even if the Eldar did have the ability to move that fast, if they tried to do it they would rip the flesh straight off their own bones due to inertia.

Now there's nothing I've read in the lore that leads me to believe the laws of physics don't apply to howling banshees. Maybe if they had a localized time field or something that made time pass normal for them, but much slower for everything else around them it might be doable but I have never heard of anything like that in the lore.

Lol, you don't get it do you? Let me explain it to you slowly then. I know how physics work. I've said as much. I don't fething care however, what my real world physics book says when talking about a fantasy world.

Not to throw gasoline on a fire, but wouldn't it make more sense to counter the "anything mechanical would tear itself apart at that speed" argument by pointing out that a truck moving 70 mph would kill ten dudes in under a second if they were lined up properly and a truck isn't in any way designed to do that?

Edit: For the record I'm also a Marine player who would be happy to see the other Codexes get a second look after mine, better internal balance for Tau/Guard/Nids/etc means more varied builds on the other side of the table and that makes the game more interesting for me.

The Newman wrote:
Not to throw gasoline on a fire, but wouldn't it make more sense to counter the "anything mechanical would tear itself apart at that speed" argument by pointing out that a truck moving 70 mph would kill ten dudes in under a second if they were lined up properly and a truck isn't in any way designed to do that?

We are talking about a sword, not a truck. And I highly doubt an entire squad of tactical marines would be stupid enough to stand in a straight line chest to back, obligingly so that they can get killed by a howling banshee running full speed at them. Stop being a smartass.

 Galas wrote:
Insectium7, not to downplay a game I didnt saw but how do you even charge Tau? I learned the bad way to not charge directly a Tau castle with 6 Custodes guardians vs 20 firewarrios, a fiireblade and 2 missilesides.
What a masacre... For me.

I learned the same way to not deepstrike 5 custodes guardians near a guilliman bloob of intercessors with stalkers.

Quick summary:

I've been messing with Rhinos recently, so I had four of them and a Pod. He deployed defensively in a corner, and I gambled with my fewer drops for +1 for first turn and deployed directly across from him. I won 1st, so I banzai'd (advanced) across the table in Rhinos turn 1 popping smoke. I built a wall of Rhinos maybe 9 inches out from his front line with more models behind the Rhinos in a crater or coming up the flank behind a building. He blew up a Rhino and a Devastators Squad, and damaged a second Rhino in his first round. Opening of the second turn I dismounted everybody else 9" forward and was basically on top of him. Plus the Pod loaded with Sternguard I had about 50 guys up there, with another 10 man squad closing in on the flank. Lots of shooting little guns at drones and big guns at the big stuff, rerolling to hit, re-rolling 1s to wound. Cleared all drones, killed the Broadsides, took two Riptides down to about half HP, charged all the Firewarriors, Pathfinders, Riptides I could see with everything I had, Rhinos too. Did a few more wounds to a Riptide, killed off some Fire Warriors.

It could have been a much closer game after that but he botched some targeting priority for his very important 2nd turn, but also just rolled kinda terribly (no marker lights available, pathfinders and some of those little characters who have marker lights had been charged, and my Rhinos blocked meaningful LOS from the others). A couple bad decisions and one of "those turns" was a bit too much. Conceded bottom of turn two.

w1zard wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

On top of that, nobody on either side of the argument here is asking for costlier Marines even if they do get buffed.

Unfortunately a 2W, 2A, marine with a bolt rifle is too good for 13 pts. Their cost will have to be raised to 16-18 points, which I am perfectly fine with BTW, because it makes marines seem more like "badass elite" army that they actually are in the fluff, which was my whole point about the fluff to begin with.

You literally just described a primaris intercessor which is largely considered ineffective.