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There is an even stronger point towards his rapid rise to godhood. In the Abaddon book they literaly talk about part of the Eye of Terror they can't go because it basically has Emperor daemons attacking them. And this is a few centuries after the HH, before Abaddon becomes the new hotness.

 alextroy wrote:
Personally, think the Emperor is a sneaky SOB who is capable of making contingency plans in his machinations. Not Tzeetchian levels of plotting, but still much better than the average human or even chaos daemon.

His primary plan was the webway. There was no space in the webway plan for religion, that was too easily subverted by Chaos . He worked to stamp it out, and that included slapping down he Word Bearers.

His backup plan seems to have been godhood.He gave Logar the time needed to set the Cult of the Empreror in motion before trying to bring him into line with the Imperial Creed. Unfortunately, this all went awry when he lost fir Logar and the World Bearers, then Horus and the other traitor legions to Chaos. He won the Heresy, but a a cost probably higher than her foresaw.

Still he has either acheived or nearly achieved godhood. The power of the new Imperial Creed is undeniable with the power of the faith of the Sisters of Battle, Celestine and the Living Saints, long with the spectral Legions of the Damned all pointing towards the his ascention.

How do Sisters Acts of Faith actually work? I've never been clear on that. Is it the Emperor actually doing something to help?

pm713 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Personally, think the Emperor is a sneaky SOB who is capable of making contingency plans in his machinations. Not Tzeetchian levels of plotting, but still much better than the average human or even chaos daemon.

His primary plan was the webway. There was no space in the webway plan for religion, that was too easily subverted by Chaos . He worked to stamp it out, and that included slapping down he Word Bearers.

His backup plan seems to have been godhood.He gave Logar the time needed to set the Cult of the Empreror in motion before trying to bring him into line with the Imperial Creed. Unfortunately, this all went awry when he lost fir Logar and the World Bearers, then Horus and the other traitor legions to Chaos. He won the Heresy, but a a cost probably higher than her foresaw.

Still he has either acheived or nearly achieved godhood. The power of the new Imperial Creed is undeniable with the power of the faith of the Sisters of Battle, Celestine and the Living Saints, long with the spectral Legions of the Damned all pointing towards the his ascention.

How do Sisters Acts of Faith actually work? I've never been clear on that. Is it the Emperor actually doing something to help?

It’s the warp, given how we know the warp works it’s just thier faith reflecting back at them, they believe strongly enough that it creates a vortex in the warp which in turn empowers them, given time and enough belief then that vortex could achieve sentience just like the chaos gods did, will that new god be the emperor, no, not the emperor we know, not the man, but the belief behind the man, will it think it’s the emperor? Likely yes, but again it won’t be the emperor, just a mash of all the beliefs and concepts that the imperium believe about the emperor.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
There is an even stronger point towards his rapid rise to godhood. In the Abaddon book they literaly talk about part of the Eye of Terror they can't go because it basically has Emperor daemons attacking them. And this is a few centuries after the HH, before Abaddon becomes the new hotness.

What do you mean by "emperor" demons? This is the first I have ever heard of this.

 alextroy wrote:
Personally, think the Emperor is a sneaky SOB who is capable of making contingency plans in his machinations. Not Tzeetchian levels of plotting, but still much better than the average human or even chaos daemon.

His primary plan was the webway. There was no space in the webway plan for religion, that was too easily subverted by Chaos . He worked to stamp it out, and that included slapping down he Word Bearers.

His backup plan seems to have been godhood.He gave Logar the time needed to set the Cult of the Empreror in motion before trying to bring him into line with the Imperial Creed. Unfortunately, this all went awry when he lost fir Logar and the World Bearers, then Horus and the other traitor legions to Chaos. He won the Heresy, but a a cost probably higher than her foresaw.

Still he has either acheived or nearly achieved godhood. The power of the new Imperial Creed is undeniable with the power of the faith of the Sisters of Battle, Celestine and the Living Saints, long with the spectral Legions of the Damned all pointing towards the his ascention.

I think MLK secretly wanted legal discrimination by race, and segregationist efforts to thrive. He would be thrilled that his secret plans have come to fruition in the modern left.

The Emperor did not want to be worshipped. It's what he consistently said to everyone around. He stamped out faiths and replaced them with secular truths.

Speculation that he secretly wanted all the power of a warp god is an attempt to portray him as more of a monster than he is. It ignores the overarching narrative of his failure and the ironic draconian nightmare theocracy that the Imperium became. It ignores his stated intentions to turn the rule over to mankind once the crusade had achieved his aims and the webway was go.

It is a valid inuniverse speculation for chaos marines etc. It is not for readers- that ambiguity does not exist, for better or worse.

w1zard wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
There is an even stronger point towards his rapid rise to godhood. In the Abaddon book they literaly talk about part of the Eye of Terror they can't go because it basically has Emperor daemons attacking them. And this is a few centuries after the HH, before Abaddon becomes the new hotness.

What do you mean by "emperor" demons? This is the first I have ever heard of this.

Think he is talking about talon of horus?

Hopefully he is not talking about Master of Mankind.


As a side note Guilliman has seen the acts of faith and Legion of the Damned, he hasnt got a clue what they are and uses the theoretical/practical to reason if the Emperor is actually a god... he isnt, guilliman knows this, but he still goes through his tried and tested process.

 Formosa wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
There is an even stronger point towards his rapid rise to godhood. In the Abaddon book they literaly talk about part of the Eye of Terror they can't go because it basically has Emperor daemons attacking them. And this is a few centuries after the HH, before Abaddon becomes the new hotness.

What do you mean by "emperor" demons? This is the first I have ever heard of this.

Think he is talking about talon of horus?

Hopefully he is not talking about Master of Mankind.


As a side note Guilliman has seen the acts of faith and Legion of the Damned, he hasnt got a clue what they are and uses the theoretical/practical to reason if the Emperor is actually a god... he isnt, guilliman knows this, but he still goes through his tried and tested process.

Yeah Talon of Horus, they call it the Firetide in the book. Its where the Astronomicon hits the Eye of Terror. It doesn't happen by concious choice though. Its described as "psychic energy, crashing together in volatile torment." It continues "Most of the Radiant Worlds are uninhabitable, lost in the lethal crash of conflicting psychic energies. Armies of fire angels and flame-wrought projections wage war against everything in their path." They find a creature appeared on board their ship that is a manifestatation of the Astronomicon/Emperor as well.

Wow. I am actually genuinely curious... Would the emperor become a chaos god if he died? With the combined weight of all of the souls of every soldier who has ever died in his name pushing him to it I can see it. Would he have daemonic servants? What would be his portfolios? Would humanity become a chaos worshiping species at that point?

Or would the emperor rather have the necron's plan succeed have realspace separated from the warp permanently?

w1zard wrote:
Wow. I am actually genuinely curious... Would the emperor become a chaos god if he died? With the combined weight of all of the souls of every soldier who has ever died in his name pushing him to it I can see it. Would he have daemonic servants? What would be his portfolios? Would humanity become a chaos worshiping species at that point?

Or would the emperor rather have the necron's plan succeed have realspace separated from the warp permanently?

If he did transcend to a purely warp based being he wouldn't become a chaos god, rather he'd become a warp entity of Order for humanity, closer along the lines of Gork and Mork for the Orks, or Asuryan for the Eldar before he got nommed. He already has "daemonic servants" in some fashion, with Living Saints like Saint Celestine being effectively his equivalent of a daemon prince and the Legion of the Damned as his regular daemons.

I'm surprised no one here has made a concerted reference to the fact that GW has over time changed what the -character- of the Emperor should be to fit the needs of the setting they wish to portray.

We must remember that the whole concept of having an Emperor in 40K itself was a nod to Leo II Atreides from the Dune Series (specifically God Emperorf Dune).

As to the character of the Emperor, that has undergone so many permutations at this point in time.

The latest incarnation (and the resulting tweaks) seems to have been GW's attempt to ride the pop culture wave of New Atheism before the movement got squashed by Social Justice politics.
When that Juice wasn't selling anymore, we've moved back into the "mysterious plans" Emperor, which tends to be the default until another writing team has an idea of what to do with Old Emps.

Regarding the Specific Issue of the Cult Mechanicus

I'm a little surprised no on brought up the evidence afforded to us by Mechanicum from the HH series.

Without bluntly beating us over the head with it, i think the novel did a very good job on showing us that the Emperor is indeed the Omnissiah......if only because he may have actually inserted that belief into the early unformed theology of the Mechanicus.

Muse for the second over the fact that the Emperor's first arrival on Mars literally fulfills Prophecies about the Omnissiah written down centuries ago. The Gold Ship, his Bling Bling, the Rain Storm, the Healing of a Machine ( a power he may have lifted from the Void Dragon)......

Combine that with the strong implication that he stuck the Dragon of Mars (Shard of the Void Dragon) into Mars to begin with....and you kind of see how Emps mind works.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When people evaluate the Emperor's character, i often see people asking why he doesn't stick to his "professed beliefs."

Aside from the obvious reason (GW deciding to initiate a story), i think the reason we can draw so many contradictory images of the Emperor is because ultimately he's a pragmatist that desires maximum freedom in meeting his objectives.

In other words...... he's a Hypocrite....... like every other dictatorial leader the world has ever had....

GrapeApe wrote:

Combine that with the strong implication that he stuck the Dragon of Mars (Shard of the Void Dragon) into Mars to begin with....and you kind of see how Emps mind works.

Not a shard I think. The entire unified C'Tan. The void dragon was one of the lucky ones that escaped the necrontyr purges and is thus still a whole being IRC.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The HH books mess up this aspect terribly. The Chaos Gods try to convince the traitor Primarchs that the Emperor is a militant atheist so that in the end he can institute himself as the sole god. But if that's the case then why did he censor the WB for their worship of him? It makes no sense that he went that far and had Monarchia destroyed if they were just being too slow in his mind. He could have approached it in so many different ways if his end goal was to really become a god.

Except that antagonizes them thus putting them toward rebellion.

tneva82 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The HH books mess up this aspect terribly. The Chaos Gods try to convince the traitor Primarchs that the Emperor is a militant atheist so that in the end he can institute himself as the sole god. But if that's the case then why did he censor the WB for their worship of him? It makes no sense that he went that far and had Monarchia destroyed if they were just being too slow in his mind. He could have approached it in so many different ways if his end goal was to really become a god.

Except that antagonizes them thus putting them toward rebellion.

What exactly antagonized them? And them being the WB?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The HH books mess up this aspect terribly. The Chaos Gods try to convince the traitor Primarchs that the Emperor is a militant atheist so that in the end he can institute himself as the sole god. But if that's the case then why did he censor the WB for their worship of him? It makes no sense that he went that far and had Monarchia destroyed if they were just being too slow in his mind. He could have approached it in so many different ways if his end goal was to really become a god.

Except that antagonizes them thus putting them toward rebellion.

What exactly antagonized them? And them being the WB?

Having their biggest creation destroyed? I would imagine that pissed off WB quite a bit.

tneva82 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The HH books mess up this aspect terribly. The Chaos Gods try to convince the traitor Primarchs that the Emperor is a militant atheist so that in the end he can institute himself as the sole god. But if that's the case then why did he censor the WB for their worship of him? It makes no sense that he went that far and had Monarchia destroyed if they were just being too slow in his mind. He could have approached it in so many different ways if his end goal was to really become a god.

Except that antagonizes them thus putting them toward rebellion.

What exactly antagonized them? And them being the WB?

Having their biggest creation destroyed? I would imagine that pissed off WB quite a bit.

Yeah, which is why I don't think the Emperor really had a long term plan to become a god based on how he treated the WB and his treatment of them ending up in his own physical death. If he had just let Lorgar be Lorgar, half of the HH insanity would have been avoided. Which is why I think the Chaos Gods convincing Horus the Emperor is the bad guy is terribly written given the context of what Horus should know, if Lorgar hadn't really been punished and kept converting, the idea that the Emperor was just wanting to become a god would have been a much stronger argument when the Chaos Gods tried to convince Horus.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:


Yeah, which is why I don't think the Emperor really had a long term plan to become a god based on how he treated the WB and his treatment of them ending up in his own physical death. If he had just let Lorgar be Lorgar, half of the HH insanity would have been avoided. Which is why I think the Chaos Gods convincing Horus the Emperor is the bad guy is terribly written given the context of what Horus should know, if Lorgar hadn't really been punished and kept converting, the idea that the Emperor was just wanting to become a god would have been a much stronger argument when the Chaos Gods tried to convince Horus.

This (Emphasis added.)

'The emperor was playing 4d chess to make his sons rebel, thus creating the ruined future and his godhood' makes no sense when he could have easily started the Temple of the Savior Emperor on day one and enforced his theocracy with 20 Space Marine legions.

Oh you follow the teachings of Buddhommed, prophet of Nirvallah eh? Can he appear right now and throw fireballs from his flaming sword? Can he call down pillars of flame from orbiting starboats? Can he cause armoured giants to appear in your fanes and burn them to cinders?

Everyone was eager and willing to worship Emps, so much so he had to slap Lorgar's work into the dust to try and stop it.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The HH books mess up this aspect terribly. The Chaos Gods try to convince the traitor Primarchs that the Emperor is a militant atheist so that in the end he can institute himself as the sole god. But if that's the case then why did he censor the WB for their worship of him? It makes no sense that he went that far and had Monarchia destroyed if they were just being too slow in his mind. He could have approached it in so many different ways if his end goal was to really become a god.

Except that antagonizes them thus putting them toward rebellion.

What exactly antagonized them? And them being the WB?

Having their biggest creation destroyed? I would imagine that pissed off WB quite a bit.

Yeah, which is why I don't think the Emperor really had a long term plan to become a god based on how he treated the WB and his treatment of them ending up in his own physical death. If he had just let Lorgar be Lorgar, half of the HH insanity would have been avoided. Which is why I think the Chaos Gods convincing Horus the Emperor is the bad guy is terribly written given the context of what Horus should know, if Lorgar hadn't really been punished and kept converting, the idea that the Emperor was just wanting to become a god would have been a much stronger argument when the Chaos Gods tried to convince Horus.

This isn't true at all, Erebus did most of the work to get the HH going, Lorgar was busy looking for answers and having fun in the eye of terror. It was Erebus that actually spread the lodges and got Horus to turn. Until Lorgar surpassed Erebus which happened way into the HH, he was irrelevant, Erebus was the director of the HH not Lorgar.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The HH books mess up this aspect terribly. The Chaos Gods try to convince the traitor Primarchs that the Emperor is a militant atheist so that in the end he can institute himself as the sole god. But if that's the case then why did he censor the WB for their worship of him? It makes no sense that he went that far and had Monarchia destroyed if they were just being too slow in his mind. He could have approached it in so many different ways if his end goal was to really become a god.

Except that antagonizes them thus putting them toward rebellion.

What exactly antagonized them? And them being the WB?

Having their biggest creation destroyed? I would imagine that pissed off WB quite a bit.

Yeah, which is why I don't think the Emperor really had a long term plan to become a god based on how he treated the WB and his treatment of them ending up in his own physical death. If he had just let Lorgar be Lorgar, half of the HH insanity would have been avoided. Which is why I think the Chaos Gods convincing Horus the Emperor is the bad guy is terribly written given the context of what Horus should know, if Lorgar hadn't really been punished and kept converting, the idea that the Emperor was just wanting to become a god would have been a much stronger argument when the Chaos Gods tried to convince Horus.

This isn't true at all, Erebus did most of the work to get the HH going, Lorgar was busy looking for answers and having fun in the eye of terror. It was Erebus that actually spread the lodges and got Horus to turn. Until Lorgar surpassed Erebus which happened way into the HH, he was irrelevant, Erebus was the director of the HH not Lorgar.

Actually Erebus first convinced Lorgar to go into the Eye and he went in there years before Erebus started spreading the lodges. If Lorgar wouldn't have lost his faith and Kor and Erebus didn't get their claws in him its doubtful if it would have gotten this far. Note that I never said the HH would have been avoided, I said half of its insanity would have been avoided.

Take into account that it was Lorgar, not Erebus who cut off the Ultramarines, prevented Angron from dying and had one of the larger and more effective legions to bring over to the side of Horus. Erebus never took any action to spread Chaos either inside the WB or to other legions before Lorgar fell from grace. Lorgar's fall was the event that allowed for Erebus and Kor to start corrupting the WB and the other legions. Lorgar's humiliation by the Emperor is the lynchpin for the HH in the form it is now, take out Lorgar and any civil war would have looked a lot different. As most of the traitor legions required little work to fall compared to the Luna Wolves, it would have still happened, but Erebus was let off the chain by Lorgar.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The HH books mess up this aspect terribly. The Chaos Gods try to convince the traitor Primarchs that the Emperor is a militant atheist so that in the end he can institute himself as the sole god. But if that's the case then why did he censor the WB for their worship of him? It makes no sense that he went that far and had Monarchia destroyed if they were just being too slow in his mind. He could have approached it in so many different ways if his end goal was to really become a god.

Except that antagonizes them thus putting them toward rebellion.

What exactly antagonized them? And them being the WB?

Having their biggest creation destroyed? I would imagine that pissed off WB quite a bit.

Yeah, which is why I don't think the Emperor really had a long term plan to become a god based on how he treated the WB and his treatment of them ending up in his own physical death. If he had just let Lorgar be Lorgar, half of the HH insanity would have been avoided. Which is why I think the Chaos Gods convincing Horus the Emperor is the bad guy is terribly written given the context of what Horus should know, if Lorgar hadn't really been punished and kept converting, the idea that the Emperor was just wanting to become a god would have been a much stronger argument when the Chaos Gods tried to convince Horus.

This isn't true at all, Erebus did most of the work to get the HH going, Lorgar was busy looking for answers and having fun in the eye of terror. It was Erebus that actually spread the lodges and got Horus to turn. Until Lorgar surpassed Erebus which happened way into the HH, he was irrelevant, Erebus was the director of the HH not Lorgar.

Actually Erebus first convinced Lorgar to go into the Eye and he went in there years before Erebus started spreading the lodges. If Lorgar wouldn't have lost his faith and Kor and Erebus didn't get their claws in him its doubtful if it would have gotten this far. Note that I never said the HH would have been avoided, I said half of its insanity would have been avoided.

Take into account that it was Lorgar, not Erebus who cut off the Ultramarines, prevented Angron from dying and had one of the larger and more effective legions to bring over to the side of Horus. Erebus never took any action to spread Chaos either inside the WB or to other legions before Lorgar fell from grace. Lorgar's fall was the event that allowed for Erebus and Kor to start corrupting the WB and the other legions. Lorgar's humiliation by the Emperor is the lynchpin for the HH in the form it is now, take out Lorgar and any civil war would have looked a lot different. As most of the traitor legions required little work to fall compared to the Luna Wolves, it would have still happened, but Erebus was let off the chain by Lorgar.

No he didn't, the lodges existed when Lorgar still believed the Emperor was a god. Cutting of the Ultramrines had nothing to do with the HH, the HH had started before that. Again Lorgar saved Angron way after the HH had started.

Yes, the Luna Wolves lodge existed before the fall to Chaos of Lorgar, but Erebus had nothing to do with it. Only after Lorgar fell to Chaos did Erebus start using the lodge to turn the Luna Wolves and spread them to other legions. Erebus wasn't attached to the Luna Wolves when the lodge started amd was only detached after the fall to Chaos.

Wait, you think the two biggest legions going at it in Ultramar had nothing to do with the HH? Or Lorgar saving Angron? Both had profound effects on the HH. If Lorgar hadn't been punished by the Emperor and set in motion the current HH track its doubtful the Emperor would have even 'died'.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Yes, the Luna Wolves lodge existed before the fall to Chaos of Lorgar, but Erebus had nothing to do with it. Only after Lorgar fell to Chaos did Erebus start using the lodge to turn the Luna Wolves and spread them to other legions. Erebus wasn't attached to the Luna Wolves when the lodge started amd was only detached after the fall to Chaos.

Wait, you think the two biggest legions going at it in Ultramar had nothing to do with the HH? Or Lorgar saving Angron? Both had profound effects on the HH. If Lorgar hadn't been punished by the Emperor and set in motion the current HH track its doubtful the Emperor would have even 'died'.

Wrong: 'What was Ignace talking about, Ezekyle? Was it a lodge medal that passed between you and Erebus?'
Abaddon looked directly at Loken and said, 'I can't say.'
'Then it was.'
'I. Can't. Say.'
'Damn you, Ezekyle. Secrets and hidden things, my brother, I can't abide them. This is exactly why I can't return to the warrior lodge.
Aximand and Torgaddon have both asked me to, but I won't, not now. Tell me: is Erebus part of the lodge now? Was he always part of
it or did you bring him in on the journey here?'
'You heard Serghar's words at the meeting. You know I can't speak of what happens within the circles of the lodge.'
Loken stepped in close to Abaddon, chest plate to chest plate, and said, 'You'll tell me now, Ezekyle. I smell something rank here and I
swear if you lie to me I'll know.'
'You think to bully me, little one?' laughed Abaddon, but Loken saw the lie in his bluster.
'Yes, Ezekyle, I do. Now tell me.'
Abaddon's eyes flickered to the entrance of the yurt.
'Very well,' he said. 'I'll tell you, but what I say goes no further.'
Loken nodded and Abaddon said, 'We did not bring Erebus into the lodge.'
'No?' asked Loken, his disbelief plain.
'No,' repeated Abaddon. 'It was Erebus who brought us in.'
Erebus, brother Astartes, First Chaplain of the Word Bearers…

The HH would have happened without Lorgar at all.


Ultramar had something to do with the HH but the point I am making is that the HH had started 'before' Lorgar decided to go to Ultramar, same with Angron. You need to read more carefully.

... Read what I said. The HH would have taken a completely different form if Lorgar hadn't fallen, not that it would have been avoided. Erebus was detached to the Luna Wolves by Lorgar with the express purpose of turning them. The lodges were created when Davin was first brought into compliance, over a decade before Monarchia. Erebus used the existing structure to start a recruting drive, which is shown in the same book you took that quote from, Abbadon and little Horus being part of said drive.

Of course the HH started before Lorgar went to Ultramar. But Lorgar allowed Erebus to be detached to the Luna Wolves to start the HH. But the book First Heretic makes clear that Erebus is just one of many WB spreading Chaos on Imperial planets and in other legions. My point is that without Lorgar falling to Chaos, Erebus would have been a lone agent, with nowhere near the dramatic consequences the HH had.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:


Yeah, which is why I don't think the Emperor really had a long term plan to become a god based on how he treated the WB and his treatment of them ending up in his own physical death. If he had just let Lorgar be Lorgar, half of the HH insanity would have been avoided. Which is why I think the Chaos Gods convincing Horus the Emperor is the bad guy is terribly written given the context of what Horus should know, if Lorgar hadn't really been punished and kept converting, the idea that the Emperor was just wanting to become a god would have been a much stronger argument when the Chaos Gods tried to convince Horus.

This (Emphasis added.)

'The emperor was playing 4d chess to make his sons rebel, thus creating the ruined future and his godhood' makes no sense when he could have easily started the Temple of the Savior Emperor on day one and enforced his theocracy with 20 Space Marine legions.

Oh you follow the teachings of Buddhommed, prophet of Nirvallah eh? Can he appear right now and throw fireballs from his flaming sword? Can he call down pillars of flame from orbiting starboats? Can he cause armoured giants to appear in your fanes and burn them to cinders?

Everyone was eager and willing to worship Emps, so much so he had to slap Lorgar's work into the dust to try and stop it.

Some aspect of him must have wanted 'godhood' as individuals appear to manifest his power early on in the heresy books, people who want to revere him as a god and those who are initially semi agnostic (I cannot remember her name, but there is the 'rememberer' who goes catatonic and later busts out the emperor during a couple of actions while traversing the warp, drawing more people in to worship him).

It might not have been his prime motivation, but it must have existed at some level.

I believe the person you mention is Euphrati Keeler(spelling?). It might be a side effect of the Emperor's presence in the Warp. The Astronomicon is the Emperor's power in the Warp, people or psykers depending on what exactly Keeler is might be able to draw power from there through their belief in the Emperor? Its a vague story, but as the Emperor is anathema to the Warp, drawing on his power being projected into the Warp might help against Warp entities. I don't think it points to him wanting to be a god as much as it points to him having a significant presence in the Warp.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
... Read what I said. The HH would have taken a completely different form if Lorgar hadn't fallen, not that it would have been avoided. Erebus was detached to the Luna Wolves by Lorgar with the express purpose of turning them. The lodges were created when Davin was first brought into compliance, over a decade before Monarchia. Erebus used the existing structure to start a recruting drive, which is shown in the same book you took that quote from, Abbadon and little Horus being part of said drive.

Of course the HH started before Lorgar went to Ultramar. But Lorgar allowed Erebus to be detached to the Luna Wolves to start the HH. But the book First Heretic makes clear that Erebus is just one of many WB spreading Chaos on Imperial planets and in other legions. My point is that without Lorgar falling to Chaos, Erebus would have been a lone agent, with nowhere near the dramatic consequences the HH had.

We are talking about whether the HH happened because of Lorgar or Erebus. You said take into account about Ultramar and Angron but they are irrelevant to how the HH started.

Wrong again, it was Horus' idead to spread the lodges:
No,' agreed Horus. 'He will not.'
'What of the other Legions?' asked Regulus. 'They will not sit idly by while we make war upon the Emperor. How do you propose to
negate them?'
'A worthy question, adept,' said Horus, circling the table to stand at his shoulder. 'We are not without allies ourselves. Fulgrim is with
us, and he now goes to win Ferrus Manus of the Iron Hands over to our cause. Lorgar too understands the necessity of what must be
done, and both bring the full might of their Legions to my banner.'
'That still leaves many others,' pointed out Erebus.
'Indeed it does, chaplain, but with your help, others may join us. Under the guise of the Chaplain Edict, we will send emissaries to
each of the Legions to promulgate the formation of warrior lodges within them. From small beginnings we may win many to our
cause.'
'That will take time,' said Erebus.
Horus nodded. 'It will, yes, but it will be worth it in the long term. In the meantime, I have despatched mobilisation orders to those
Legions I do not believe we can sway. The Ultramarines will muster at Calth to be attacked by Kor Phaeron of the Word Bearers, and
the Blood Angels have been sent to the Signus Cluster, where Sanguinius shall be mired in blood. Then we make a swift, decisive
stroke on Terra.'
'That still leaves other Legions,' said Regulus.
'I know,' answered Horus, 'but I have a plan that will remove them as a threat to us once and for all. I will lure them into a trap from
which none will escape. I will set the Emperor's Imperium ablaze and from the ashes will arise a new Master of Mankind!'
'And where will you set this trap?' asked Maloghurst.
'A place not far from here,' said Horus. 'The Istvaan system.'

Lorgar didn't know about the lodges when Erebus first made them, he hadn't turned by then. Wrong the lodges were created on Davin they were ancient, Erebus used them to be created on the Word Beares and The Sons of Horus fleets, it had nothing to do with Lorgar, the Astartes Lodges were created by Erebus, they didn't exist within the Legions before Erebus created them. Its not like they were there and Erebus just used them, like you are trying to make up just so that you aren't wrong.

No we aren't, you said what I wrote wasn't true at all in reply to me commenting this:

If he had just let Lorgar be Lorgar, half of the HH insanity would have been avoided.

I never talked about the HH happening because of only Lorgar or Erebus. I talked about avoiding half the HH insanity if Lorgar hadn't fallen, not avoiding it outright. You complain I don't read while making up things I never said about the HH...

And from your quote, the Chaplain Edict was the plan of both Lorgar and Erebus, not just Erebus (they talk about years spend in other legions as chaplains by decree of Lorgar in the First Heretic, which took place before those events quoted above, that quote is from right before the HH (as evidenced by the Signus Cluster comment), the WB have been working on spreading Chaos for 40 years untill the HH, the WB were already doing it before Horus got the 'idea'). Again, the lodges existed before Erebus openly turned to Chaos in the WB. The Luna Wolves coopted the lodges from those on Davin, the Sons of Horus name comes decades later, you're getting your timelines mixed up were talking about a gap of 10-20 years between the start of the lodges (60 years before the HH) and Erebus being detached to the Luna Wolves (after Monarchia, between 50 and 40 years before the HH).The lodges were founded before Monarchia happened, when Erebus still was with the WB legion. They had a minimal presence before Erebus started using them though.

I mean the HH series is terribly written in places and that quote is one of the examples. Horus already talks about Istvaan and Signus, the start of the HH, yet somehow they still have time to start lodges and do what took years to achieve in the Luna Wolves? So Horus in that quote has started the HH by sending the BA to Signus, yet somehow from First Heretic the WB chaplains still have years to convert the others and purge their legions? It makes zero sense timewise. First Heretic makes clear Horus is being played into thinking these are his ideas, fixing some of the issues that the first books invented.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
No we aren't, you said what I wrote wasn't true at all in reply to me commenting this:

If he had just let Lorgar be Lorgar, half of the HH insanity would have been avoided.

I never talked about the HH happening because of only Lorgar or Erebus. I talked about avoiding half the HH insanity if Lorgar hadn't fallen, not avoiding it outright. You complain I don't read while making up things I never said about the HH...

And from your quote, the Chaplain Edict was the plan of both Lorgar and Erebus, not just Erebus (they talk about years spend in other legions as chaplains by decree of Lorgar in the First Heretic, which took place before those events quoted above, that quote is from right before the HH (as evidenced by the Signus Cluster comment), the WB have been working on spreading Chaos for 40 years untill the HH, the WB were already doing it before Horus got the 'idea'). Again, the lodges existed before Erebus openly turned to Chaos in the WB. The Luna Wolves coopted the lodges from those on Davin, the Sons of Horus name comes decades later, you're getting your timelines mixed up were talking about a gap of 10-20 years between the start of the lodges (60 years before the HH) and Erebus being detached to the Luna Wolves (after Monarchia, between 50 and 40 years before the HH).The lodges were founded before Monarchia happened, when Erebus still was with the WB legion. They had a minimal presence before Erebus started using them though.

I mean the HH series is terribly written in places and that quote is one of the examples. Horus already talks about Istvaan and Signus, the start of the HH, yet somehow they still have time to start lodges and do what took years to achieve in the Luna Wolves? So Horus in that quote has started the HH by sending the BA to Signus, yet somehow from First Heretic the WB chaplains still have years to convert the others and purge their legions? It makes zero sense timewise. First Heretic makes clear Horus is being played into thinking these are his ideas, fixing some of the issues that the first books invented.

There is no such thing as the Chaplain edict, you are just making things up again. Erebus was spreading the lodges before Lorgar turned. The lodges did not exist in the Astartes before Erebus made them. You are just making up those timelines this is ridiculous. Hastur Sejanus was in the lodge, Garviel Loken was asked to take his place after he died, he died 1 year after the Ullanor campaign, well before Lorgar turned. Stop lying and making things up or I won't comment, you have proven yourself to be dishonest, everything you have said is completely wrong, you are just making things up. Sure everyone gets a few things wrong, but every time I post proof you just lie straight away again and again. Yeah Horus had planed Istavaan well before it happened thats unbelievable. He planned it before the lodges spread to all the other legions because of Loken.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

There is no such thing as the Chaplain edict, you are just making things up again.

Literally your previous post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

'That still leaves many others,' pointed out Erebus.
'Indeed it does, chaplain, but with your help, others may join us. Under the guise of the Chaplain Edict, we will send emissaries to
each of the Legions to promulgate the formation of warrior lodges within them. From small beginnings we may win many to our
cause.'
'That will take time,' said Erebus.

I mean, I know you don't read what I write, but apparently that's just what you do in general...


Just for the people who actually read this. Ullanor was after Monarchia, Lorgar was already turned by then. The lodges were older than Erebus' attaching to the Luna Wolves and this was in accordance to the plans Lorgar made with Erebus. In the book quote Delvarus uses it directly references Horus having already dispatched the BA to the Signus Cluster which together with Calth and Istvaan is the start of the HH. Somehow while this is already happening Horus still has the time to turn the other legions with lodges, even though he already planned the Drop Site Massacre, its bad writing with no sense of timescale.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

There is no such thing as the Chaplain edict, you are just making things up again.

Literally your previous post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

'That still leaves many others,' pointed out Erebus.
'Indeed it does, chaplain, but with your help, others may join us. Under the guise of the Chaplain Edict, we will send emissaries to
each of the Legions to promulgate the formation of warrior lodges within them. From small beginnings we may win many to our
cause.'
'That will take time,' said Erebus.

I mean, I know you don't read what I write, but apparently that's just what you do in general...

That's the Chaplain edict, for all chaplains. It isn't a particular edict 'plan' that Lorgar made and it isn't mentioned in the first heretic. Plus I wouldn't be saying facepalm when you have gotten literally everything wrong and have resorted in just making stuff up lol

So there is no such thing as the Chaplain Edict except for the Chaplain Edict?

The Chaplain Edict came out of the Council of Nikea inspired by Lorgar, who as the only legion to use chaplains up to that point spread them out to the other legions to attempt to influence them. This is discussed in First Heretic.

Also a facepalm is pretty much in order when you make directly contradictory statements within two posts and keep complaining the other person doesn't read.