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Page 85, Imperial Guard Codex wrote:This unit may issue one order per turn at the start of their Shooting Phase..."

Was a bit surprised last game when I tried to order my boys after I had shot with my Knights, to which my opponent said you can only order at the start of the shooting phase. Does this mean as soon as you order a unit, you can't order another one as it's no longer "the start of the Shooting Phase"?

Don't have rules on me but wouldn't you declare all your orders at the start?

 Valkyrie wrote:

Page 85, Imperial Guard Codex wrote:This unit may issue one order per turn at the start of their Shooting Phase..."

Was a bit surprised last game when I tried to order my boys after I had shot with my Knights, to which my opponent said you can only order at the start of the shooting phase. Does this mean as soon as you order a unit, you can't order another one as it's no longer "the start of the Shooting Phase"?

No. It says the start of "their" shooting phase.

So, there are two interpretations.

1) The start of "their" shooting phase all happens at the same time at the beginning of the phase proper. Sequencing kicks in and you resolve them in whatever sequence you want, since it's your turn. This interpretation means you must issue all of your orders before doing any shooting.

2) The start of "their" shooting phase happens when you select the unit to shoot in the shooting phase. This means you must issue orders before the officer itself shoots. However this interpretation runs into trouble when you advance or otherwise cannot shoot, with people using the Smoke Launcher FAQ as a precedent (though they really can't).

Personally I think that, without any FAQ from GW, the strictest interpretation with the least special pleading is the correct one, thus I say #1 is the correct way of doing things. IIRC in previous editions you had to do them all at the start of the Shooting Phase too, and in the right order, so doing them all in the Shooting Phase in any order isn't too much of a change.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Don't have rules on me but wouldn't you declare all your orders at the start?

But once you declare one it's no longer the start of the phase?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:

Page 85, Imperial Guard Codex wrote:This unit may issue one order per turn at the start of their Shooting Phase..."

Was a bit surprised last game when I tried to order my boys after I had shot with my Knights, to which my opponent said you can only order at the start of the shooting phase. Does this mean as soon as you order a unit, you can't order another one as it's no longer "the start of the Shooting Phase"?

No. It says the start of "their" shooting phase.

So, there are two interpretations.

1) The start of "their" shooting phase all happens at the same time at the beginning of the phase proper. Sequencing kicks in and you resolve them in whatever sequence you want, since it's your turn. This interpretation means you must issue all of your orders before doing any shooting.

2) The start of "their" shooting phase happens when you select the unit to shoot in the shooting phase. This means you must issue orders before the officer itself shoots. However this interpretation runs into trouble when you advance or otherwise cannot shoot, with people using the Smoke Launcher FAQ as a precedent (though they really can't).

Personally I think that, without any FAQ from GW, the strictest interpretation with the least special pleading is the correct one, thus I say #1 is the correct way of doing things. IIRC in previous editions you had to do them all at the start of the Shooting Phase too, and in the right order, so doing them all in the Shooting Phase in any order isn't too much of a change.

So if it was interpretation #2, that would mean I could fire with other units, my Knights for example, before moving onto my orders?

 Valkyrie wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Don't have rules on me but wouldn't you declare all your orders at the start?

But once you declare one it's no longer the start of the phase?

But it's simultaneous. I think it would be sort of be like combat in the assault phase, before you actually fight you declare all your charges.

 Valkyrie wrote:
So if it was interpretation #2, that would mean I could fire with other units, my Knights for example, before moving onto my orders?

Yes, but as I said I don't think interpretation 2 is correct, due to the number of issues that is has and the fact it requires special pleading to an unrelated FAQ. You are, of course, free to make up or ignore whatever rules you want, but keep in mind my signature disclaimer.

It may have been from a previous edition, but there was a clause to resolve "simultaneous " effects, such as issuing multiple orders.

The RAI is that you need to perform orders before moving on to non-ordered shooting. Or, previously, it was a way to avoid people running then shooting... or only running as an ordered effect.

 Valkyrie wrote:
But once you declare one it's no longer the start of the phase?

That doesn't matter, because the Sequencing rule lets you resolve things. If you have 6 officers, you have 6 rules all happening at the same time (The start of the Shooting Phase), and the Sequencing rule allows you to resolve them one at a time.

Thanks for the clarifications!

To add to BCB: the sequencing rules are also still in effect as part of the Move! Move! Move! and Fix Bayonets! orders. Neither of these, which cause the unit so ordered to immediately enact the effect, end the "beginning of the shooting phase" thus ending your ability to issue more orders.

In the same Vein; Orders in 8th edition simply grant a limited lasting effect. They are no longer an action to be immediately taken(besides the 2 abovementioned orders). So your earlier question of shooting with the knight then using bring it down can still be done to some degree: start of shooting phase issue bring it down on a lascannon team including unit, during phase shoot knight at vehicle, then shoot with so-ordered unit at same vehicle to finish it off or a different target.

I think the player you played against meant that since you shot with your knights, you cant issue orders anymore. Not that you can only issue 1 order because of some technicality. Issue all your orders at the beginning, then start choosing units to shoot.

All orders cannot happen at the start of the shooting phase. Senior officers can issue two orders.

This model may use the Voice of Command ability twice in each of your turns. Resolve the effects of the first order before issuing the second order.

If you resolve the first order its no longer the start of the shooting phase. You cant use sequencing with senior officers because the first and second order are not happening at the same time. All orders must happen before anyone does anything in the shooting phase is not true for senior officers.

 p5freak wrote:
All orders cannot happen at the start of the shooting phase. Senior officers can issue two orders.

This model may use the Voice of Command ability twice in each of your turns. Resolve the effects of the first order before issuing the second order.

If you resolve the first order its no longer the start of the shooting phase. You cant use sequencing with senior officers because the first and second order are not happening at the same time. All orders must happen before anyone does anything in the shooting phase is not true for senior officers.

The Voice of Command ability gives specific instructions on how to resolve that ability. So you can issue two orders because of the rule "Resolve the effects of the first order before issuing the second order." which lets you indeed resolve the second order.

And it is still the start.

 p5freak wrote:
All orders cannot happen at the start of the shooting phase. Senior officers can issue two orders.

This model may use the Voice of Command ability twice in each of your turns. Resolve the effects of the first order before issuing the second order.

If you resolve the first order its no longer the start of the shooting phase. You cant use sequencing with senior officers because the first and second order are not happening at the same time. All orders must happen before anyone does anything in the shooting phase is not true for senior officers.

Nope. The Senior Officer has two orders to issue at the start of the phase. Plus, you're making wild assumptions on how strict the definition of "start of the shooting phase" really is in this context. Psychic phase is done? On to the shooting phase, now I'll issue all my orders (you know, at the beginning of the phase), and then move on to shooting. Don't try and "nickel-and-dime" your opponents - it's bad form.

Or like I enjoy joking about at the table, "Time for the Imperial Guard psychic phase!"

And again; "resolving the effects of the first order" outside of the 2 I mentioned earlier that have immediate effects, is simply applying a bonus for a set time(most are until the end of the phase)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And again; "resolving the effects of the first order" outside of the 2 I mentioned earlier that have immediate effects, is simply applying a bonus for a set time(most are until the end of the phase)

Correct, had an opponent who was so used to me having to shoot immediately for the others that we had a good mid-game discussion about it. I can see how players from past editions have a hard time getting past that memory.

There is no definition when the shooting phase starts, when the shooting phase is, and when the shooting phase ends. How can you be so sure ? By your definition 10 units could have shot and/or moved or done whatever (because they were ordered to do so), and its still the start of the shooting phase ? By your definition i could still play the go! recon! or aerial spotter stratagem after those 10 units have done something in the shooting phase (both are played at the start of the shooting phase). No, i dont think so.

Your right. The rules lack such technical definitions in many areas.

However, common sense dictates and GW FAQs backup that the moment you do something that doesn't have to happen a the Start of the Phase you are no longer at the Start of the Phase and therefore cannot take any actions that are required to take place at the Start of the Phase .

 p5freak wrote:
There is no definition when the shooting phase starts, when the shooting phase is, and when the shooting phase ends. How can you be so sure ? By your definition 10 units could have shot and/or moved or done whatever (because they were ordered to do so), and its still the start of the shooting phase ? By your definition i could still play the go! recon! or aerial spotter stratagem after those 10 units have done something in the shooting phase (both are played at the start of the shooting phase). No, i dont think so.

If you have enough “at the start of the Shooting Phase” orders and Stratagems to affect 10+ things then yes, I think so.

All “at the start of” really means is that you have to commit and do these things first for the extra benefit, in the process losing the tactical flexibility of doing them later on in the Phase if things don’t pan out as you expected (or went better than expected). You lose flexibility in exchange for added killpower.

If you need to consider it a ‘mini-Phase’ or consider them simultaneous and sequence them to help explain it, do. But trying to claim after doing one Order you can’t do others is incorrect.

In essence a Phase has three sub-phases:

- ‘At The Start Of X Phase’ actions
- regular actions
- ‘At The End Of X Phase’ actions

When there is no given definition, you default back to natural language.

Otherwise we can never roll dice.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
When there is no given definition, you default back to natural language.

Otherwise we can never roll dice.

Amen!

gak posting. Nevermind.

As previously stated, "At the start of the shooting phase" just means you have to do everything, in whichever order you choose, that needs to be done "at the start of the shooting phase" before you move onto other, non-"at the start of the shooting phase" actions.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
When there is no given definition, you default back to natural language.

Otherwise we can never roll dice.

Indeed.

We don't even need a definition for start of, during, and end of phases due to the magic of defined sequencing rules.

If you are making "during" actions you have moved past the simultaneous "start of" actions. If you are making "end of" actions you have moved past "during" actions. And if you have moved on to the next phase then you are past "end of" actions and are now performing the next phase's "start of" actions.

Sequencing means that all of the partitions of the phase are simultaneous in their own section; the active player just gets to choose the order in which they are resolved.