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Not Online!!! wrote:

 vim_the_good wrote:
I don't think it is too complicated. The rules are about as simple as they can get outside of generic one page rule systems. I am enjoying the way they have done away with templates; the shooting and cc dice mechanic are similar. It all makes for an easier game to learn.

I think the problem is. GW have slipped back into the old habit of players needing to reference multiple sources to make sure they have up-to-date rules.

Chapter Approved, Indexes should be free with a small charge to buy a sheet of easy peal stickers with all the Errata for your given Codex that are pre cut to fit nicely over the offending Codex entry.

Vim

GW has found a new potential income source with CA, and indexes, do you honestly think they will stop?

You are the winner!!!

An official app like BattleScribe would be cool.

ValentineGames wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?

Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy

Yeah. Like 20 of them. 2 codexes, CA and a few sheets of paper aren't exactly going to tax you unless you have a physical illness. MAYBE if you had to carry ALL the books several miles you'd have a point.

tneva82 wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:
Wow, I didn't realize that if you downloaded and used Battlescribe it secretly pulled out a lighter and set fire to your codex.

Problem is carrying those.

And the jerks who actually consider BS replacement for rules and don't get the codex and rely just on BS. You can recognize them by them showing up to game and not actually have any sort of codex with them.

Why are they obviously jerks for not bring a book they don't need? I play tons of games and see a core rulebook for... essentially none of them, because we know the rules and don't need them and have references for the bits that are hard to remember.

 LunarSol wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:
Wow, I didn't realize that if you downloaded and used Battlescribe it secretly pulled out a lighter and set fire to your codex.

Problem is carrying those.

And the jerks who actually consider BS replacement for rules and don't get the codex and rely just on BS. You can recognize them by them showing up to game and not actually have any sort of codex with them.

Why are they obviously jerks for not bring a book they don't need? I play tons of games and see a core rulebook for... essentially none of them, because we know the rules and don't need them and have references for the bits that are hard to remember.

They are jerks because Battlescribe is an unofficial third party tool that has a history of mistakes. If you don't have your actual rules with you in case of any questions then you shouldn't be allowed to play.

 Peregrine wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:
Wow, I didn't realize that if you downloaded and used Battlescribe it secretly pulled out a lighter and set fire to your codex.

Problem is carrying those.

And the jerks who actually consider BS replacement for rules and don't get the codex and rely just on BS. You can recognize them by them showing up to game and not actually have any sort of codex with them.

Why are they obviously jerks for not bring a book they don't need? I play tons of games and see a core rulebook for... essentially none of them, because we know the rules and don't need them and have references for the bits that are hard to remember.

They are jerks because Battlescribe is an unofficial third party tool that has a history of mistakes. If you don't have your actual rules with you in case of any questions then you shouldn't be allowed to play.

And most first party tools have a history of mistakes. So do most printed materials for that matter. I haven't played an error free game in years. Not sure why Battlescribe needs to be held to a different standard, particularly when its largely fine.

wow this in another thread..... are people seriously struggling this much to carry 1-3 books and maybe a printed out piece of paper? How the heck do people manage to carry an army to the store if they cant bring a book or 2? I mean there are even little pouches on the side of 99% of the army carriers that will easily fit a couple codexes and those things are on wheels. I hope non of these people have an old-school army with pewter models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also you can buy the digital copy of each book and just bring your phone

If CA had up to date stickers for me to put into my codexes and rule book I would have been over the moon happy.

That is a brilliant idea!!! (too bad the FAQs would have invalidated them but for the up coming CA I'd love to see it)

ValentineGames wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?

Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy

Backpack? That's what I use.

I find it hilarious that the people who thought it was too difficult and time consuming to look up USR's in previous editions are the ones defending carrying around 3-5 books simply to play a game.

The point isn't that its too difficult to carry the books, it's that it should never have come to that in the first place.

Why don't people understand that 8th edition is very, very poorly laid out. Just, mind-bogglingly stupid levels of disorganization.

It's clear that the "living ruleset" idea simply does not work unless everything is digital and automatically updates every time a rule is changed.

It's to the point where you can't even assemble a legal army without consulting 3 books, an FAQ and several randomly placed facebook messages. It's completely insane.

You think this is easy for people who have been in the hobby forever like we have? Try being a new player. You think they have any idea of what's going on?

And 8th ed. defenders are claiming that this uber streamlined rules set is somehow making it easier for new players to enter the hobby? Get Real.

You wonder why people use Battlescribe? It's more accurate than consulting half of GW actual physical copies of their own game. Half the time the PR team on facebook doesn't get it right and we're all left scratching our heads as to the meaning of certain rulings.

How about instead of going out of their way to make things mind numbingly simply, they just write some rules and make it sound to begin with. Don't have a specific number of pages in mind. Just write until it's good.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I find it hilarious that the people who thought it was too difficult and time consuming to look up USR's in previous editions are the ones defending carrying around 3-5 books simply to play a game.

The point isn't that its too difficult to carry the books, it's that it should never have come to that in the first place.

Why don't people understand that 8th edition is very, very poorly laid out. Just, mind-bogglingly stupid levels of disorganization.

It's clear that the "living ruleset" idea simply does not work unless everything is digital and automatically updates every time a rule is changed.

It's to the point where you can't even assemble a legal army without consulting 3 books, an FAQ and several randomly placed facebook messages. It's completely insane.

You think this is easy for people who have been in the hobby forever like we have? Try being a new player. You think they have any idea of what's going on?

And 8th ed. defenders are claiming that this uber streamlined rules set is somehow making it easier for new players to enter the hobby? Get Real.

You wonder why people use Battlescribe? It's more accurate than consulting half of GW actual physical copies of their own game. Half the time the PR team on facebook doesn't get it right and we're all left scratching our heads as to the meaning of certain rulings.

How about instead of going out of their way to make things mind numbingly simply, they just write some rules and make it sound to begin with. Don't have a specific number of pages in mind. Just write until it's good.

having universal rules wouldn't cut down on what books you need to bring. You would still need a book for each army (im assuming you are running 3 different forces soup if you're needing 5 books) so that's not cut down by having universal special rules. You still need any FAQ that applies to your army so that's not going to be cut down. You would still theoretically need the rule book (if you're still having to consult the BRB a year after release). The only way to cut down on the number of books would be to put everything into a single book that would cost a ton and weigh as much as every codex strapped together. It would also be made invalid with every rules release.

In reality without the hysterical screaming over bringing a book to a board game, you only need
1. A codex per army your are taking..... if the number of books really bothers you so much play a mono faction
2. Chapter approved...... Seriously just photocopy the one or two pages that apply to your army
3. Any FAQ that you need on hand.... a few pieces of paper

So, in reality, people need 1-2 books and a couple of pieces of paper that chances are you never have to take out of a folder because after a week everyone knows the changes that took place in the latest FAQ

I take my rulebook, codex and chapter approved with me. I use battle scribe to have the army list to hand (after checking points). It isn't hard to pack in a bag and I don't see the problem with it. Even if you use two or three codexes to build your army it shouldn't be an issue to put them in a bag and carry them.

Other than playing missions I don't see why you'd need the rulebook and CA for any particular game (unless you're an index army in CA). Once you're comfortable with the rules, there's not really anything you'll need to reference in there. Have it in case there's a question that comes up, but it's not too important.

Datasheets, stratagems, relics, etc., are the things that are more useful to reference mid-game. You probably know all these off the top of your head but your opponent might not.

With the FAQs, they're helpful to have but again a lot of that isn't material you'll need to reference mid-game.

USR clean up the mess of having pages upon pages of "bespoke rules" is what I'm saying.

The lack of USR's and the general layout of the main rules themselves is indicative of the general disorganization of the game as a whole.

Chapter approved shouldn't be a thing. Period.

We shouldn't need to buy more rules on top of the rules we just bought because they noticed after a year that maybe their bad rules writing wasn't up to par. Something that took us on this site maybe 10 min to figure out based simply on rumours before the game was even released.

The FAQ's should be accessible online on their site with no other purchase necessary.

Furthermore, rulings on questions should not be answered on facebook.

If you play soup, you play soup. Thats something nobody can control but yourself, and has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

The game itself is poorly written. And it just keeps getting more and more muddled down from every direction, and I think they are doing it purposefully.

Notice how they released the FAQ for Imperial Knights a couple weeks after the main release, so people had time to make a legal army, and then have some of those issues with Armigers overturned so that it might have put you in a position of purchasing models that you didn't need or want?

I purchased an Ynarri army at the beginning of the edition because I liked the idea of combining Eldar and Dark Eldar. Guess what? The FAQ made my army illegal. feth me right?

The FAQ's and rules changes are happening so quickly, you can't even keep up with them before your army is made illegal or bad.

I'll show up to games or talk to people who are all playing off of different iterations of the same rules set. Some people don't even know that there has been FAQ's made via facebook. I know that I don't know all of what has transpired between now the last FAQ.

Long story short. If they want to do things the way they are doing them, eliminate hard copy books. Make everything interactive and online accessible. It's the only way that this works.

USRs also serve as universal mechanics that all armies could interact with and be designed around. Simple stuff like Relentless, Furious Charge, Scout, Deepstrike, Prefered Enemy, etc. It puts more depth of mechanics into the game without having to have long drawn out explanations on a unit profile and without it seeming excessive to have something like Relentless defined for every vehicle, MC, terminator, etc. MTG doesn't spell out how trample or first strike works so it's not hard for a card to have first strike, trample, lifelink, vigilance, etc on the same card because these "key words" have well defined mechanics.

meleti wrote:
Other than playing missions I don't see why you'd need the rulebook and CA for any particular game (unless you're an index army in CA). Once you're comfortable with the rules, there's not really anything you'll need to reference in there. Have it in case there's a question that comes up, but it's not too important.

Datasheets, stratagems, relics, etc., are the things that are more useful to reference mid-game. You probably know all these off the top of your head but your opponent might not.

With the FAQs, they're helpful to have but again a lot of that isn't material you'll need to reference mid-game.

That 7th edition reference sheet which is roughly 4 pages did the same thing making needing the rule book only really necessary when practicing rules lawyering. What your saying isn't in anyway wrong but what I think everyone would like is ease of access to the information and in all editions GW has been fairly terrible about communicating rules in a logical and easy to reference format. 8th was an attempt but they went about it by gutting a lot of mechanics for more simplicity instead of making the rules better organized.

I don’t know if I’d call it complicated per se, but it’s certainly very tedious. The books, faqs, cards, wound tracking, stratagem tracking, etc... make even FFG games with their dial and token fetishes look clean. It’s certainly a messy experience unless you play often.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
USR clean up the mess of having pages upon pages of "bespoke rules" is what I'm saying.

USRs wouldn't reduce the number of page for anything. Datasheets have plenty of space. USRs would actually add more pages to the BRB without really affecting the codexes. They would also require you to bring the BRB in the first place which is no longer necessary. The least you would "need" right now is the free downloadable rules and a codex.

Chapter approved shouldn't be a thing. Period.

For points changes and errata I agree. But for new mission types or even new scenario based rules like Cities of Death I don't see why not.

The FAQ's should be accessible online on their site with no other purchase necessary.

They already are.

Furthermore, rulings on questions should not be answered on facebook.

They aren't. People just like to ask for any possible clarification while we wait for our bi-annual FAQ. Which btw was caused by the commissar nerf. So many people complained about too many FAQs and erratas too fast that we now have to wait 6 months to get any sort of updates.

The FAQ's and rules changes are happening so quickly, you can't even keep up with them before your army is made illegal or bad.

Sure, but isn't that the whole point of a living rules set? The pro is that things get changed. The con is that things get changed. It sucks to have units invalidated but it's also nice when crap units get better.

Long story short. If they want to do things the way they are doing them, eliminate hard copy books. Make everything interactive and online accessible. It's the only way that this works.

Just buy the enhanced editions. They get updated to match erratas and point changes. Though they are a bit slow to get updated . That said, a free online index for each faction should be available. So unit datasheets and army specific rules should be downloadable. But there is a confirmed army builder app coming out "soon" which will feature points for sure, it might also include detachments and such.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Furthermore, rulings on questions should not be answered on facebook.

...

Long story short. If they want to do things the way they are doing them, eliminate hard copy books. Make everything interactive and online accessible. It's the only way that this works.

That seems like quite a contradiction. If you like the trend towards interactive and online rules, the facebook-rulings appear to be the closest thing we have in this regard and what you'd want to encourage.

It's currently not as interactive as it could be, because some idiots still claim that FAQ/errata from GW communicated via one IP address is somehow less official than FAQ/errata communicated via a different IP address.

USRs don't clean up anything. They just add another rulebook you need and another step to looking up rules.

Here's an example; my opponent wants to know what a Lictor does. So I look it up in the codex. Now I know he has Stealth, Infiltrate and Prefered Enemy. My opponent now wants to know what Stealth and Infiltrate do because his army doesn't use those rules much. So now, rather than just reading them from the page I already have open and in front of me, i have to look them up in a different, bigger book.

I have never once memorized EVERY USR in the BRB and in nearly every game of 6th Ed we'd have to look up a few of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:


Long story short. If they want to do things the way they are doing them, eliminate hard copy books. Make everything interactive and online accessible. It's the only way that this works.

Ew no. I like physical books and I don't have a problem keeping up with FAQs and carrying more than 2 at a time. Don't assume that because you have arms with hollow bones that we all do.

 LunarSol wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:
Wow, I didn't realize that if you downloaded and used Battlescribe it secretly pulled out a lighter and set fire to your codex.

Problem is carrying those.

And the jerks who actually consider BS replacement for rules and don't get the codex and rely just on BS. You can recognize them by them showing up to game and not actually have any sort of codex with them.

Why are they obviously jerks for not bring a book they don't need? I play tons of games and see a core rulebook for... essentially none of them, because we know the rules and don't need them and have references for the bits that are hard to remember.

If you don't have your codex how are you able to check rules? Opponent wants to know rules. Is he supposed to just take your word for it? YOU might know point costs, stats and rules inside out. Whatabout your opponent? Is your idea that it's responsibility of players to know EVERY codex inside out?

No rules for your army with you, no game. Can't play without rules. If you don't have your rules with you then you don't play. Battlescribe print out is not replacement.

ValentineGames wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?

Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy

Grow stronger. It's not hard..

The problem is not the carrying, the problem is that certain armies that require diffrent rulebooks have to search and buy a shitton of em. Add CA and a shitton of FAQ's and the rules are a mess.

 LunarSol wrote:
And most first party tools have a history of mistakes. So do most printed materials for that matter. I haven't played an error free game in years. Not sure why Battlescribe needs to be held to a different standard, particularly when its largely fine.

Battlescribe is held to a different standard because it is a third-party tool, not official rules. If the codex says a unit is 150 points then it's 150 points, period, until/unless it is changed by FAQ/errata. If Battlescribe says the unit is 155 points then Battlescribe is wrong. And Battlescribe has a history of making errors like that, things that do not match the official rules published by GW. It is not a substitute for having a full copy of all of your rules with you for every game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:
USRs don't clean up anything. They just add another rulebook you need and another step to looking up rules.

Here's an example; my opponent wants to know what a Lictor does. So I look it up in the codex. Now I know he has Stealth, Infiltrate and Prefered Enemy. My opponent now wants to know what Stealth and Infiltrate do because his army doesn't use those rules much. So now, rather than just reading them from the page I already have open and in front of me, i have to look them up in a different, bigger book.

I have never once memorized EVERY USR in the BRB and in nearly every game of 6th Ed we'd have to look up a few of them.

That's a terrible example because all three of those USRs are common ones. Even if your army doesn't use them much other armies sure do, and you'll very quickly learn what they do. And once you learn those rules you've learned them forever. You can look at a new unit's rules, see that it has the Stealth USR, and know exactly how that rule works. You never have to worry about being surprised by a subtle difference in the rule because every instance of Stealth is exactly the same.

 Sim-Life wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?

Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy

Yeah. Like 20 of them. 2 codexes, CA and a few sheets of paper aren't exactly going to tax you unless you have a physical illness. MAYBE if you had to carry ALL the books several miles you'd have a point.

16 miles carrying a BRB. codex. Index. CA and FW index.
Plus dice. Tape measure. Army.
Lugging it around busses and trains.
Up hills.

Then finally you get to play 2 hours of rules arguing.
Pack it all up.
And 16 miles back.
Plus your £12 out of pocket now

Yeah no thanks.

ValentineGames wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?

Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy

Yeah. Like 20 of them. 2 codexes, CA and a few sheets of paper aren't exactly going to tax you unless you have a physical illness. MAYBE if you had to carry ALL the books several miles you'd have a point.

16 miles carrying a BRB. codex. Index. CA and FW index.
Plus dice. Tape measure. Army.
Lugging it around busses and trains.
Up hills.

Then finally you get to play 2 hours of rules arguing.
Pack it all up.
And 16 miles back.
Plus your £12 out of pocket now

Yeah no thanks.

Busses and trains? You don't know you're born.
In MY day all our models were sculpted from rocks. We'd pack them up into our cases which were boxes we found in t'road and we'd walk 50 miles uphill to play a game for 5 minutes on some rusty corrugated iron with codexes scratched into the wall and dice made from marbles with dots painted on them before walking home 50 miles uphill again. And when we got home our ole dad would dip all our models in turpentine and make us repaint them afore bed.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Busses and trains? You don't know you're born.
In MY day all our models were sculpted from rocks. We'd pack them up into our cases which were boxes we found in t'road and we'd walk 50 miles uphill to play a game for 5 minutes on some rusty corrugated iron with codexes scratched into the wall and dice made from marbles with dots painted on them before walking home 50 miles uphill again. And when we got home our ole dad would dip all our models in turpentine and make us repaint them afore bed.

You think that's bad? Our ol' da used to wake us up 5 hours before we'd gone to bed, and force us to sculpt all our models out of milliput while wearing mittens while soaked in acetone!

But to reiterate: 40k isn't becoming complicated. "Deep" is not the same as "Complicated" and 40k is neither.

Hi guys. I'm trying to get back to this hobby for a while. I played on editions 4,5,6th. I have a big problem to cope with all the different sources of the rules, faq's, indexes, codexes, etc.

I just wanted to start some small Deathwatch force when there was no new codex yet. And I was so confused and overwhelmed with how many books I should buy and read before I will get my first mini.

Another thing - what happened to the small rulebooks that used to be included in starter sets? They were so damn useful!

Really guys it's not the weight in kilos that is a problem. It's really chaotic for someone from the outside to catch up with all this mess now. And there are some handy DataCards also. I assume they can become outdated too after another CA or FAQ? It's a paradox that my previous experience and habits make it harder for me to understand the 8th ed. (yes, I read this pdf for returning players made by GW). I'm starting to love boxed games with fixed forces and persistent rules. I don't want to spend so much money on paper with GW logo.

And why there are so many different bolters?

I bought this harcover rulebook and it's so hard to get to what's most important there. Tons of fluff, scenarios for narrative, open play, fancy ways to setup your minis at the table. OMG do people have no imagination and creativity any more? Why the units' costs in Codex are in some other place and not in unit's description?
Sorry for a messy post, just wanted to say "I agree". It's hard for one who likes to feel he knows all the rules to be sure that he's not missing something. Rules are not that complicated but spread on pieces of paper thrown here and there.

Yes.

 jeff white wrote:
Yes.

Simple and succinct.

I'd say, for me, no. But then again, I prefer 7th to 8th. What it IS is too bland and homogeneous.

ValentineGames wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?

Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy

Yeah. Like 20 of them. 2 codexes, CA and a few sheets of paper aren't exactly going to tax you unless you have a physical illness. MAYBE if you had to carry ALL the books several miles you'd have a point.

16 miles carrying a BRB. codex. Index. CA and FW index.
Plus dice. Tape measure. Army.
Lugging it around busses and trains.
Up hills.

Then finally you get to play 2 hours of rules arguing.
Pack it all up.
And 16 miles back.
Plus your £12 out of pocket now

Yeah no thanks.

The simple solution is to buy all digital copies and simply have them all in your pocket on your phone. But it sounds like your real problem is having to take the bus and train to go play a game. Not sure how 8th caused this issue as it doesn't sound particularly fun to have to travel like that to any edition of a game.