Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?
Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy
Yeah. Like 20 of them. 2 codexes, CA and a few sheets of paper aren't exactly going to tax you unless you have a physical illness. MAYBE if you had to carry ALL the books several miles you'd have a point.
16 miles carrying a BRB. codex. Index. CA and FW index.
Plus dice. Tape measure. Army.
Lugging it around busses and trains.
Up hills.
Then finally you get to play 2 hours of rules arguing.
Pack it all up.
And 16 miles back.
Plus your £12 out of pocket now
Yeah no thanks.
The simple solution is to buy all digital copies and simply have them all in your pocket on your phone. But it sounds like your real problem is having to take the bus and train to go play a game. Not sure how 8th caused this issue as it doesn't sound particularly fun to have to travel like that to any edition of a game.
That is not a simple solution.
I have the BA and DA codex on my phone and using them is a nightmare.
They load too slow and all the scrolling makes making a list stressful as hell. Especially if you're flicking between 4 or 5 books/pdf on a 4" screen.
It's definitely a step backwards.
At least in 3rd and 4th I only needed 2 books to carry. Which cuts down on a ton of weight.
And at least back then I didn't NEED to carry 4 quad lascannon Predators to avoid being laughed out the store...
Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?
Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy
Yeah. Like 20 of them. 2 codexes, CA and a few sheets of paper aren't exactly going to tax you unless you have a physical illness. MAYBE if you had to carry ALL the books several miles you'd have a point.
16 miles carrying a BRB. codex. Index. CA and FW index.
Plus dice. Tape measure. Army.
Lugging it around busses and trains.
Up hills.
Then finally you get to play 2 hours of rules arguing.
Pack it all up.
And 16 miles back.
Plus your £12 out of pocket now
Yeah no thanks.
The simple solution is to buy all digital copies and simply have them all in your pocket on your phone. But it sounds like your real problem is having to take the bus and train to go play a game. Not sure how 8th caused this issue as it doesn't sound particularly fun to have to travel like that to any edition of a game.
That is not a simple solution.
I have the BA and DA codex on my phone and using them is a nightmare.
They load too slow and all the scrolling makes making a list stressful as hell. Especially if you're flicking between 4 or 5 books/pdf on a 4" screen.
It's definitely a step backwards.
At least in 3rd and 4th I only needed 2 books to carry. Which cuts down on a ton of weight.
And at least back then I didn't NEED to carry 4 quad lascannon Predators to avoid being laughed out the store...
Physical books don't run out of power, either. Not to mention not everyone likes using digital rulebooks. Some of us, when playing a physical game, prefer to unplug completely. If I want to stare at a screen I'll stay home and play video games.
Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?
Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy
Yeah. Like 20 of them. 2 codexes, CA and a few sheets of paper aren't exactly going to tax you unless you have a physical illness. MAYBE if you had to carry ALL the books several miles you'd have a point.
16 miles carrying a BRB. codex. Index. CA and FW index.
Plus dice. Tape measure. Army.
Lugging it around busses and trains.
Up hills.
Then finally you get to play 2 hours of rules arguing.
Pack it all up.
And 16 miles back.
Plus your £12 out of pocket now
Yeah no thanks.
The simple solution is to buy all digital copies and simply have them all in your pocket on your phone. But it sounds like your real problem is having to take the bus and train to go play a game. Not sure how 8th caused this issue as it doesn't sound particularly fun to have to travel like that to any edition of a game.
That is not a simple solution.
I have the BA and DA codex on my phone and using them is a nightmare.
They load too slow and all the scrolling makes making a list stressful as hell. Especially if you're flicking between 4 or 5 books/pdf on a 4" screen.
It's definitely a step backwards.
At least in 3rd and 4th I only needed 2 books to carry. Which cuts down on a ton of weight.
And at least back then I didn't NEED to carry 4 quad lascannon Predators to avoid being laughed out the store...
"At least in 3rd and 4th I only needed 2 books to carry. Which cuts down on a ton of weight."
"I have the BA and DA"
So unless I'm missing something huge you really only need 2 books now. Also, download this great app everyone uses called battlescribe. You build your list once and check it against your book 1 time. You can now reference everything quickly off your phone.
Also, what is it with peoples inability to memorize 99% of their armies rules after 2-3 games. Are you really having to still reference your codex every 2min during a game? I also cant sympathize with "i decided to take these units i don't like carrying in my army because they are heavy and 8th is a really bad game because of this"
Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?
Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy
Yeah. Like 20 of them. 2 codexes, CA and a few sheets of paper aren't exactly going to tax you unless you have a physical illness. MAYBE if you had to carry ALL the books several miles you'd have a point.
16 miles carrying a BRB. codex. Index. CA and FW index.
Plus dice. Tape measure. Army.
Lugging it around busses and trains.
Up hills.
Then finally you get to play 2 hours of rules arguing.
Pack it all up.
And 16 miles back.
Plus your £12 out of pocket now
Yeah no thanks.
The simple solution is to buy all digital copies and simply have them all in your pocket on your phone. But it sounds like your real problem is having to take the bus and train to go play a game. Not sure how 8th caused this issue as it doesn't sound particularly fun to have to travel like that to any edition of a game.
That is not a simple solution.
I have the BA and DA codex on my phone and using them is a nightmare.
They load too slow and all the scrolling makes making a list stressful as hell. Especially if you're flicking between 4 or 5 books/pdf on a 4" screen.
It's definitely a step backwards.
At least in 3rd and 4th I only needed 2 books to carry. Which cuts down on a ton of weight.
And at least back then I didn't NEED to carry 4 quad lascannon Predators to avoid being laughed out the store...
Why not just use Battlescribe and if someone REALLY pushes you on a rule THEN look up the digital book for them. It's what I do with my side armies like AdMech and Custodes
Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?
Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy
Yeah. Like 20 of them. 2 codexes, CA and a few sheets of paper aren't exactly going to tax you unless you have a physical illness. MAYBE if you had to carry ALL the books several miles you'd have a point.
16 miles carrying a BRB. codex. Index. CA and FW index.
Plus dice. Tape measure. Army.
Lugging it around busses and trains.
Up hills.
Then finally you get to play 2 hours of rules arguing.
Pack it all up.
And 16 miles back.
Plus your £12 out of pocket now
Yeah no thanks.
The simple solution is to buy all digital copies and simply have them all in your pocket on your phone. But it sounds like your real problem is having to take the bus and train to go play a game. Not sure how 8th caused this issue as it doesn't sound particularly fun to have to travel like that to any edition of a game.
That is not a simple solution.
I have the BA and DA codex on my phone and using them is a nightmare.
They load too slow and all the scrolling makes making a list stressful as hell. Especially if you're flicking between 4 or 5 books/pdf on a 4" screen.
It's definitely a step backwards.
At least in 3rd and 4th I only needed 2 books to carry. Which cuts down on a ton of weight.
And at least back then I didn't NEED to carry 4 quad lascannon Predators to avoid being laughed out the store...
Physical books don't run out of power, either. Not to mention not everyone likes using digital rulebooks. Some of us, when playing a physical game, prefer to unplug completely. If I want to stare at a screen I'll stay home and play video games.
>Complains about not having all books in one convenient, lightweight, referencing spot.
>Offered simple solution
>What am i supposed to do? carry a power cord in my bag?
>Also some of us like carrying all of the heavy books we don't want modern solutions
Seriously what would you like GW to do? If you don't want to carry multiple books but you are unwilling to play a mono faction or use digital, then the only solution for GW would be to put every codex into a single book thus causing the book to be 1. larger and weigh more then 1-3 codexes of the specific armies you choose 2. significantly more expensive than the specific codex for the army you want to play 3. invalidated with every new codex release.
Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?
Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy
Yeah. Like 20 of them. 2 codexes, CA and a few sheets of paper aren't exactly going to tax you unless you have a physical illness. MAYBE if you had to carry ALL the books several miles you'd have a point.
16 miles carrying a BRB. codex. Index. CA and FW index.
Plus dice. Tape measure. Army.
Lugging it around busses and trains.
Up hills.
Then finally you get to play 2 hours of rules arguing.
Pack it all up.
And 16 miles back.
Plus your £12 out of pocket now
Yeah no thanks.
The simple solution is to buy all digital copies and simply have them all in your pocket on your phone. But it sounds like your real problem is having to take the bus and train to go play a game. Not sure how 8th caused this issue as it doesn't sound particularly fun to have to travel like that to any edition of a game.
That is not a simple solution.
I have the BA and DA codex on my phone and using them is a nightmare.
They load too slow and all the scrolling makes making a list stressful as hell. Especially if you're flicking between 4 or 5 books/pdf on a 4" screen.
It's definitely a step backwards.
At least in 3rd and 4th I only needed 2 books to carry. Which cuts down on a ton of weight.
And at least back then I didn't NEED to carry 4 quad lascannon Predators to avoid being laughed out the store...
Why not just use Battlescribe and if someone REALLY pushes you on a rule THEN look up the digital book for them. It's what I do with my side armies like AdMech and Custodes
I've been saying this in multiple posts but apparently its not a valid option because then you might need to bring a power cord and also they like the feel of books (even though they hate the feel of the books while holding them)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/04 18:19:56
Having their rulebooks still mostly on paper, when you have so many FAQs that actually change important stuff and a yearly round of rebalance, it's unconvenient.
They should all go full digital, fully mantained and mantained, free rulesets. Just text, easy to load and flick though. The books are just for collection values and for juicy new art and for new lore. For the added value they bring.
If you want a complicated game, just take a look at the Infinity rulebook. Have fun.
Having their rulebooks still mostly on paper, when you have so many FAQs that actually change important stuff and a yearly round of rebalance, it's unconvenient.
They should all go full digital, fully mantained and mantained, free rulesets. Just text, easy to load and flick though. The books are just for collection values and for juicy new art and for new lore. For the added value they bring.
If you want a complicated game, just take a look at the Infinity rulebook. Have fun.
This, so much this.
If they would just make all the rules avilable more people could take a look. Heck it would probably be easier to maintain then constant FAQs
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Funny how things go round in circles as to whatever GW edicts and certain members of the community lap it up...
3 years ago AoS got rid of points and certain people immediately towed the line that POINTS ARE THE DEVIL INCARNATE! and such a flawed system that GW is right for abolishing them and as such, should not even attempt to use them and anyone who thinks otherwise is a WAAC powergamer who kicks kittens for fun.
Fast forward to now, and we had slightly similar arguments WRT power levels v points. But now, the spokes on the wheel have turned again and USRs are the literal work of Satan himself and GW are ahead of the curve in abolishing these damnable things.
No. 40k is far more needlessly complicated than it needs to be. USRs are an easy fix to much of this unnecessary complexity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/04 20:49:11
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Grimtuff wrote: USRs are an easy fix to much of this unnecessary complexity.
People keep saying this, ignoring the decade of rules where USR's didn't fix a damn thing.
GW didn't do it right=/=it's a bad thing.
OK. USRs are bad because I don't like them. And I don't like them because I dislike referencing rules in a giant rulebook. USRs are FAR more complicated to use than the current system.
If you want a bank of special rules tucked away in the BRB fine, whatever, but each rule should be fully spelled out on each datasheet for ease of use at a minimum. "What does my Ghostkeel do? Oh yeah, here it is right in the datasheet I'm already looking at."
Grimtuff wrote: USRs are an easy fix to much of this unnecessary complexity.
People keep saying this, ignoring the decade of rules where USR's didn't fix a damn thing.
GW didn't do it right=/=it's a bad thing.
OK. USRs are bad because I don't like them. And I don't like them because I dislike referencing rules in a giant rulebook. USRs are FAR more complicated to use than the current system.
If you want a bank of special rules tucked away in the BRB fine, whatever, but each rule should be fully spelled out on each datasheet for ease of use at a minimum. "What does my Ghostkeel do? Oh yeah, here it is right in the datasheet I'm already looking at."
So, once again. The problem is not the USRs. It's a giant rulebook.
Release a pocket rulebook and problem solved.
Just because GW don't do it right does not make it a bad idea. USRs work perfectly fine for WMH. This coupled with the fact that one can simply click on the relevant USR icon on a model card in War Room and it brings up the rule.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
I've always found the USR debate rather curious. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want a set of standardized rules applicable to most armies in most situations, listed in a single place. Just because GW went ridiculously overboard with their rules in 6th and 7th doesn't mean the concept is invalid, just horribly implemented.
Our version of 40K has about 25 USR's - if an army has some exception to the main rule it can be stated elsewhere, such as in their codex. Again 8th Ed. is simply another example of GW throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/04 22:02:23
Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?
Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy
Yeah. Like 20 of them. 2 codexes, CA and a few sheets of paper aren't exactly going to tax you unless you have a physical illness. MAYBE if you had to carry ALL the books several miles you'd have a point.
16 miles carrying a BRB. codex. Index. CA and FW index.
Plus dice. Tape measure. Army.
Lugging it around busses and trains.
Up hills.
Then finally you get to play 2 hours of rules arguing.
Pack it all up.
And 16 miles back.
Plus your £12 out of pocket now
Yeah no thanks.
The simple solution is to buy all digital copies and simply have them all in your pocket on your phone. But it sounds like your real problem is having to take the bus and train to go play a game. Not sure how 8th caused this issue as it doesn't sound particularly fun to have to travel like that to any edition of a game.
That is not a simple solution.
I have the BA and DA codex on my phone and using them is a nightmare.
They load too slow and all the scrolling makes making a list stressful as hell. Especially if you're flicking between 4 or 5 books/pdf on a 4" screen.
It's definitely a step backwards.
At least in 3rd and 4th I only needed 2 books to carry. Which cuts down on a ton of weight.
And at least back then I didn't NEED to carry 4 quad lascannon Predators to avoid being laughed out the store...
"At least in 3rd and 4th I only needed 2 books to carry. Which cuts down on a ton of weight."
"I have the BA and DA"
So unless I'm missing something huge you really only need 2 books now. Also, download this great app everyone uses called battlescribe. You build your list once and check it against your book 1 time. You can now reference everything quickly off your phone.
Also, what is it with peoples inability to memorize 99% of their armies rules after 2-3 games. Are you really having to still reference your codex every 2min during a game? I also cant sympathize with "i decided to take these units i don't like carrying in my army because they are heavy and 8th is a really bad game because of this"
Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?
Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy
Yeah. Like 20 of them. 2 codexes, CA and a few sheets of paper aren't exactly going to tax you unless you have a physical illness. MAYBE if you had to carry ALL the books several miles you'd have a point.
16 miles carrying a BRB. codex. Index. CA and FW index.
Plus dice. Tape measure. Army.
Lugging it around busses and trains.
Up hills.
Then finally you get to play 2 hours of rules arguing.
Pack it all up.
And 16 miles back.
Plus your £12 out of pocket now
Yeah no thanks.
The simple solution is to buy all digital copies and simply have them all in your pocket on your phone. But it sounds like your real problem is having to take the bus and train to go play a game. Not sure how 8th caused this issue as it doesn't sound particularly fun to have to travel like that to any edition of a game.
That is not a simple solution.
I have the BA and DA codex on my phone and using them is a nightmare.
They load too slow and all the scrolling makes making a list stressful as hell. Especially if you're flicking between 4 or 5 books/pdf on a 4" screen.
It's definitely a step backwards.
At least in 3rd and 4th I only needed 2 books to carry. Which cuts down on a ton of weight.
And at least back then I didn't NEED to carry 4 quad lascannon Predators to avoid being laughed out the store...
Physical books don't run out of power, either. Not to mention not everyone likes using digital rulebooks. Some of us, when playing a physical game, prefer to unplug completely. If I want to stare at a screen I'll stay home and play video games.
>Complains about not having all books in one convenient, lightweight, referencing spot.
>Offered simple solution
>What am i supposed to do? carry a power cord in my bag?
>Also some of us like carrying all of the heavy books we don't want modern solutions
Seriously what would you like GW to do? If you don't want to carry multiple books but you are unwilling to play a mono faction or use digital, then the only solution for GW would be to put every codex into a single book thus causing the book to be 1. larger and weigh more then 1-3 codexes of the specific armies you choose 2. significantly more expensive than the specific codex for the army you want to play 3. invalidated with every new codex release.
Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?
Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy
Yeah. Like 20 of them. 2 codexes, CA and a few sheets of paper aren't exactly going to tax you unless you have a physical illness. MAYBE if you had to carry ALL the books several miles you'd have a point.
16 miles carrying a BRB. codex. Index. CA and FW index.
Plus dice. Tape measure. Army.
Lugging it around busses and trains.
Up hills.
Then finally you get to play 2 hours of rules arguing.
Pack it all up.
And 16 miles back.
Plus your £12 out of pocket now
Yeah no thanks.
The simple solution is to buy all digital copies and simply have them all in your pocket on your phone. But it sounds like your real problem is having to take the bus and train to go play a game. Not sure how 8th caused this issue as it doesn't sound particularly fun to have to travel like that to any edition of a game.
That is not a simple solution.
I have the BA and DA codex on my phone and using them is a nightmare.
They load too slow and all the scrolling makes making a list stressful as hell. Especially if you're flicking between 4 or 5 books/pdf on a 4" screen.
It's definitely a step backwards.
At least in 3rd and 4th I only needed 2 books to carry. Which cuts down on a ton of weight.
And at least back then I didn't NEED to carry 4 quad lascannon Predators to avoid being laughed out the store...
Why not just use Battlescribe and if someone REALLY pushes you on a rule THEN look up the digital book for them. It's what I do with my side armies like AdMech and Custodes
I've been saying this in multiple posts but apparently its not a valid option because then you might need to bring a power cord and also they like the feel of books (even though they hate the feel of the books while holding them)
This. Just this.
There is literally no winning with these people while still having a business. Let's get to the crux of it - as the guy who tried to explain said, they want free codexes.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?
Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy
Yeah. Like 20 of them. 2 codexes, CA and a few sheets of paper aren't exactly going to tax you unless you have a physical illness. MAYBE if you had to carry ALL the books several miles you'd have a point.
16 miles carrying a BRB. codex. Index. CA and FW index.
Plus dice. Tape measure. Army.
Lugging it around busses and trains.
Up hills.
Then finally you get to play 2 hours of rules arguing.
Pack it all up.
And 16 miles back.
Plus your £12 out of pocket now
Yeah no thanks.
The simple solution is to buy all digital copies and simply have them all in your pocket on your phone. But it sounds like your real problem is having to take the bus and train to go play a game. Not sure how 8th caused this issue as it doesn't sound particularly fun to have to travel like that to any edition of a game.
That is not a simple solution.
I have the BA and DA codex on my phone and using them is a nightmare.
They load too slow and all the scrolling makes making a list stressful as hell. Especially if you're flicking between 4 or 5 books/pdf on a 4" screen.
It's definitely a step backwards.
At least in 3rd and 4th I only needed 2 books to carry. Which cuts down on a ton of weight.
And at least back then I didn't NEED to carry 4 quad lascannon Predators to avoid being laughed out the store...
Physical books don't run out of power, either. Not to mention not everyone likes using digital rulebooks. Some of us, when playing a physical game, prefer to unplug completely. If I want to stare at a screen I'll stay home and play video games.
>Complains about not having all books in one convenient, lightweight, referencing spot.
>Offered simple solution
>What am i supposed to do? carry a power cord in my bag?
>Also some of us like carrying all of the heavy books we don't want modern solutions
Seriously what would you like GW to do? If you don't want to carry multiple books but you are unwilling to play a mono faction or use digital, then the only solution for GW would be to put every codex into a single book thus causing the book to be 1. larger and weigh more then 1-3 codexes of the specific armies you choose 2. significantly more expensive than the specific codex for the army you want to play 3. invalidated with every new codex release.
Are your arms made of literal noodles that carrying a few books is too heavy?
Dumbest thing I've read today...
Books actually ARE heavy
Yeah. Like 20 of them. 2 codexes, CA and a few sheets of paper aren't exactly going to tax you unless you have a physical illness. MAYBE if you had to carry ALL the books several miles you'd have a point.
16 miles carrying a BRB. codex. Index. CA and FW index.
Plus dice. Tape measure. Army.
Lugging it around busses and trains.
Up hills.
Then finally you get to play 2 hours of rules arguing.
Pack it all up.
And 16 miles back.
Plus your £12 out of pocket now
Yeah no thanks.
The simple solution is to buy all digital copies and simply have them all in your pocket on your phone. But it sounds like your real problem is having to take the bus and train to go play a game. Not sure how 8th caused this issue as it doesn't sound particularly fun to have to travel like that to any edition of a game.
That is not a simple solution.
I have the BA and DA codex on my phone and using them is a nightmare.
They load too slow and all the scrolling makes making a list stressful as hell. Especially if you're flicking between 4 or 5 books/pdf on a 4" screen.
It's definitely a step backwards.
At least in 3rd and 4th I only needed 2 books to carry. Which cuts down on a ton of weight.
And at least back then I didn't NEED to carry 4 quad lascannon Predators to avoid being laughed out the store...
Why not just use Battlescribe and if someone REALLY pushes you on a rule THEN look up the digital book for them. It's what I do with my side armies like AdMech and Custodes
I've been saying this in multiple posts but apparently its not a valid option because then you might need to bring a power cord and also they like the feel of books (even though they hate the feel of the books while holding them)
This. Just this.
There is literally no winning with these people while still having a business. Let's get to the crux of it - as the guy who tried to explain said, they want free codexes.
No. They want free codexes with all the rules in a single book that never needs to be erratad, FAQ'd or updated.
Grimtuff wrote: USRs are an easy fix to much of this unnecessary complexity.
People keep saying this, ignoring the decade of rules where USR's didn't fix a damn thing.
GW didn't do it right=/=it's a bad thing.
OK. USRs are bad because I don't like them. And I don't like them because I dislike referencing rules in a giant rulebook. USRs are FAR more complicated to use than the current system.
If you want a bank of special rules tucked away in the BRB fine, whatever, but each rule should be fully spelled out on each datasheet for ease of use at a minimum. "What does my Ghostkeel do? Oh yeah, here it is right in the datasheet I'm already looking at."
So, once again. The problem is not the USRs. It's a giant rulebook.
Release a pocket rulebook and problem solved.
Just because GW don't do it right does not make it a bad idea. USRs work perfectly fine for WMH. This coupled with the fact that one can simply click on the relevant USR icon on a model card in War Room and it brings up the rule.
I would like if the structured the rules alike, with section numbers and the such (no fancy fluff description here)with the only the actual rule wording. then you could use keywords to quick reference which specific rule is being addressed. then you could have a pocket rulebook that's trimmed of the fat/fluff and just lean rules remaining(kinda like golf). that way everyone has the same basic rules but then their faction coolness isn't restrained.
Crimson Devil wrote: If the product is a bad as you guys say, and it's always been bad as you argue. Doesn't that make anyone buying their stuff morons?
No, because there are good parts of the hobby even if the rules are trash. The fact that some of us will put up with bad rules for the sake of getting to use the models we love doesn't in any way change the fact that the rules are bad.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Crimson Devil wrote: If the product is a bad as you guys say, and it's always been bad as you argue. Doesn't that make anyone buying their stuff morons?
No, because there are good parts of the hobby even if the rules are trash. The fact that some of us will put up with bad rules for the sake of getting to use the models we love doesn't in any way change the fact that the rules are bad.
they've always had the best miniatures, which for some of us is enuff. but I agree with Peregrine (which happens from time to time) the rules are bad, I just don't agree with the degree of bad. I'm more like kinda bad, not raging dumpster fire.
It makes no sense to me. I can appreciate loving the models, but why use GW's rules? I have dozens of games and lots of miniatures. The games with rules I don't like, I don't play. If I want to use those minis I'll find a game they fit in. Their are plenty of adaptions of 40k all over the net. Conversions for Bolt Action, AoS, & DUST are just the ones off the top of my head. So why put yourselves through playing a game you hate?
So, once again. The problem is not the USRs. It's a giant rulebook.
Release a pocket rulebook and problem solved.
No, the problem is not the size of the rulebook, it's the fact that I have to cross reference multiple documents to figure out what a particular unit does. All you're proposing is removing unit abilities from their datasheets and compiling them in a third document. Why? I have no idea. USRs are themselves unnecessarily complicated, and we are better off without them.
Even assuming that the USRs actually work and are convenient, you don't gain any meaningful benefit from having them over the current system. Codexes will be just as long since unit abilities take max 3 lines and datasheets are all only one page anyway. The number of codexes will be the same since the number of factions determines that, not the number of special rules. The BRB will actually be longer, and will render the free online rules useless since unit abilities are required to play the game, thus making the BRB a mandatory purchase for new players, whereas right now it is not (I went a good 6 months just using the online pdf). The only rules you currently need to purchase to play legit games are the codexes, everything else is essentially optional and sometimes free.
The current system effectively eliminates the need for the BRB, yet you call it "unnecessarily complicated". Everything you need is in the codex. It could not be easier.
If by chance you're somehow getting caught up on the name of each rule, just don't bother memorizing the name. "This model ignores wounds on a 5+" instead of " this model has disgustingly resilient". After a while you learn the name by osmosis but even then it still doesn't actually matter.
Dandelion wrote: All you're proposing is removing unit abilities from their datasheets and compiling them in a third document. Why?
Because of standardization. If you have USRs you replace 50 different rules with a single rule that is easy to memorize. You memorize what the Stealth USR does (+1 cover save in terrain) and that's it, all GW has to do is print a single word on a unit's datasheet and you know exactly what it does. You don't have Stealth, Stealthy, Stealth Troops, Stealthy Assassin, Expert Hiding, and Terrain Masters, all of which give a +1 cover save except that one of them gives it to a unit in or behind terrain. You no longer have to carefully study the exact wording of each rule to make sure you know it's the standard form of the USR that it looks like at first glance, and not a subtly different one.
Codexes will be just as long since unit abilities take max 3 lines and datasheets are all only one page anyway.
Datasheets don't need to be one page. Back in previous editions, where USRs were used effectively and point costs had a better layout you could fit 2-3 units on a single page.
The number of codexes will be the same since the number of factions determines that, not the number of special rules.
This can also be changed. The design concept behind USRs can be applied to things like space marines, removing all of the redundant codices and having a single space marine codex for all chapters that uses USRs and similar ideas to keep the length down to a reasonable level.
The BRB will actually be longer
Only by a very small amount. 5-10 pages is not a big deal, that could easily be accommodated by removing maelstrom missions from the book.
and will render the free online rules useless
Only if GW doesn't put the USRs in the free rules. Why would you assume that they wouldn't? Even if they don't the problem is not USRs, it's GW's greed in publishing a "free" core rulebook that isn't enough to play the game.
The current system effectively eliminates the need for the BRB
It doesn't. You still need the core rules, detachment rules, mission rules, etc.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Crimson Devil wrote: It makes no sense to me. I can appreciate loving the models, but why use GW's rules? I have dozens of games and lots of miniatures. The games with rules I don't like, I don't play. If I want to use those minis I'll find a game they fit in. Their are plenty of adaptions of 40k all over the net. Conversions for Bolt Action, AoS, & DUST are just the ones off the top of my head. So why put yourselves through playing a game you hate?
It must be some form of sadomasochism.
If you play at a store, then you can only play only the way the store owners are ok with. You can't just use Dust rules and play w40k with 20 models, even if they support the game, because they want to sell stuff for the game and don't care what you already have. And yes I do understand that in some places around the world people have huge houses and don't play at stores. It is not the norm in every country in the world. It is probablly a minority of places world wide, that can play like that.
Because of standardization. If you have USRs you replace 50 different rules with a single rule that is easy to memorize. You memorize what the Stealth USR does (+1 cover save in terrain) and that's it, all GW has to do is print a single word on a unit's datasheet and you know exactly what it does. You don't have Stealth, Stealthy, Stealth Troops, Stealthy Assassin, Expert Hiding, and Terrain Masters, all of which give a +1 cover save except that one of them gives it to a unit in or behind terrain. You no longer have to carefully study the exact wording of each rule to make sure you know it's the standard form of the USR that it looks like at first glance, and not a subtly different one
It is that plus a healthy distrust of GW writing ability. They seem to sometimes write rules in a such a way, that they seem the same, but have a small difference which in gaming terms is huge. I could easily imagine GW writing 90% of stealth special rules the same way, and then give something that looks the same to let say eldar, but their would work in the open, behind cover when not touching it etc.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Crimson Devil wrote: It makes no sense to me. I can appreciate loving the models, but why use GW's rules? I have dozens of games and lots of miniatures. The games with rules I don't like, I don't play. If I want to use those minis I'll find a game they fit in. Their are plenty of adaptions of 40k all over the net. Conversions for Bolt Action, AoS, & DUST are just the ones off the top of my head. So why put yourselves through playing a game you hate?
It must be some form of sadomasochism.
Conversion rules are great, but only if you have people to play with. If you show up at a store on 40k night everyone else is going to expect to use the standard 40k rules, not some obscure conversion for a different game that nobody else has ever heard of. So you either play with the 40k rules, or you sit in the corner wishing you could do something with your models until you give up and go home.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Crimson Devil wrote: It makes no sense to me. I can appreciate loving the models, but why use GW's rules? I have dozens of games and lots of miniatures. The games with rules I don't like, I don't play. If I want to use those minis I'll find a game they fit in. Their are plenty of adaptions of 40k all over the net. Conversions for Bolt Action, AoS, & DUST are just the ones off the top of my head. So why put yourselves through playing a game you hate?
It must be some form of sadomasochism.
If you play at a store, then you can only play only the way the store owners are ok with. You can't just use Dust rules and play w40k with 20 models, even if they support the game, because they want to sell stuff for the game and don't care what you already have. And yes I do understand that in some places around the world people have huge houses and don't play at stores. It is not the norm in every country in the world. It is probablly a minority of places world wide, that can play like that.
Because of standardization. If you have USRs you replace 50 different rules with a single rule that is easy to memorize. You memorize what the Stealth USR does (+1 cover save in terrain) and that's it, all GW has to do is print a single word on a unit's datasheet and you know exactly what it does. You don't have Stealth, Stealthy, Stealth Troops, Stealthy Assassin, Expert Hiding, and Terrain Masters, all of which give a +1 cover save except that one of them gives it to a unit in or behind terrain. You no longer have to carefully study the exact wording of each rule to make sure you know it's the standard form of the USR that it looks like at first glance, and not a subtly different one
It is that plus a healthy distrust of GW writing ability. They seem to sometimes write rules in a such a way, that they seem the same, but have a small difference which in gaming terms is huge. I could easily imagine GW writing 90% of stealth special rules the same way, and then give something that looks the same to let say eldar, but their would work in the open, behind cover when not touching it etc.
That granularity is why no USRs is good. It means if one unit's stealth works slightly differently it can represents the model better. It also means that its easier to tweak the rule if the rule becomes over/underpowered without having to consider how changing the rule will effect units that are okay. Not to mention that not all units are equal. How Furious Charge (if it grants +1 attack) effects a 10 man unit of Death Company is very different to how it effects a trygon for example.
Sim-Life wrote: It means if one unit's stealth works slightly differently it can represents the model better.
This is a game where a titan can delete the whole unit in one shot either way. The vast majority of these differences are irrelevant and pointless, nothing but rules bloat and substituting memorization of tiny differences for genuine strategic depth. And in the rare case where a difference is necessary and has a meaningful gameplay effect it can be included as a unit-specific rule. In this case it will be extremely obvious that it is different because it has a fully-stated special rule in its datasheet instead of the Stealth USR.
It also means that its easier to tweak the rule if the rule becomes over/underpowered without having to consider how changing the rule will effect units that are okay.
This kind of thing is best accounted for by point cost changes. USRs, when used for basic things like stealth/re-roll 1s/etc don't need small tweaks because they're basic. And they generally lead to very basic cases of being overpowered/underpowered, where a unit's math is just too good/bad for its point cost. It's very straightforward to fix these cases by adjusting the point cost until the power per point is where it should be. For complex stuff that would significantly vary in its effect you'd use unit-specific rules.
Not to mention that not all units are equal. How Furious Charge (if it grants +1 attack) effects a 10 man unit of Death Company is very different to how it effects a trygon for example.
Well yes, but what's your point? I fail to see how this is an argument against USRs. If both units have a rule that grants them +1 attack then they should have the same USR. Whether you give a particular rule to a unit is irrelevant in a discussion of USRs vs. all rules on the datasheet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 09:28:38
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
