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I imagine that if it was the USRs that broke the game, you may not want them or replace them by something that you can FAQ faster, as in without testing how the change to an USR on one unit will effect the game for other units with it. But, and I don't claim to be competent about rules design here, it seems to me that the broken parts either come from points being counted in some strage way, units having interactions with rules from different sources giving OP results and specific unit rules that were "fun" as a fluff choice, but aren't fun to play with or against.
I a more scared that GW may give some sort of AoE resurect mechanic to SoB saints, making them rise up stuff like baneblades or knights, then somehow something like +1 to cover breaking the game.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2018/07/05 12:04:32
Subject: Re:Is 40k becoming too complicated again?
The game is actually easy to play and even with all the special rules in codex's, FAQ's errata it's still a simple game.
The problem is that GW40k designers keep ramming fluff and rules together at 100mph to force players into participating in both. Hence we end up with the car crash that is the 8th edition BRB.
The worst thing is GW has done better in the past yet has gone backwards once again. Have a BRB pack of 2 books if you must but keep the fluff in 1 book and the rules in a seperate book.
Do similar in codex's have a fluff section and then a rules section, the latter codex's are generally a lot better for this than others but some are a mess of random fluff stuff in the middle of a rules description.
Also while the living rules are good for balance and helping with odd unclear rules interactions, trying to teach the game to people is about as intuitive as solving a rubics cube blindfolded.
Heres your Rule book, Rule book FAQ, Codex,Codex FAQ, Big FAQ, Captor Approved and any additional house rules. That's before you start trying to introduce missions with objectives etc.
Thats 6 rules source's not including the odd situations where the FAQ for another faction is the one you need to answer your question on a rules interaction.
Really a lot of the "complexity" of finding the correct rules could be solved by having CA contain a rules baseline for each year incorporating all the preceding FAQ's errata.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 12:06:13
Crimson Devil wrote: It makes no sense to me. I can appreciate loving the models, but why use GW's rules? I have dozens of games and lots of miniatures. The games with rules I don't like, I don't play. If I want to use those minis I'll find a game they fit in. Their are plenty of adaptions of 40k all over the net. Conversions for Bolt Action, AoS, & DUST are just the ones off the top of my head. So why put yourselves through playing a game you hate?
It must be some form of sadomasochism.
If you play at a store, then you can only play only the way the store owners are ok with. You can't just use Dust rules and play w40k with 20 models, even if they support the game, because they want to sell stuff for the game and don't care what you already have. And yes I do understand that in some places around the world people have huge houses and don't play at stores. It is not the norm in every country in the world. It is probablly a minority of places world wide, that can play like that.
I play at a store every weekend and not a single store in Utah I've played regularly at has that sort of restriction.
For the record: Gajo Games, Comics Utah, MRS Hobbies, & Hastur Hobbies.
Peregrine wrote:
Conversion rules are great, but only if you have people to play with. If you show up at a store on 40k night everyone else is going to expect to use the standard 40k rules, not some obscure conversion for a different game that nobody else has ever heard of. So you either play with the 40k rules, or you sit in the corner wishing you could do something with your models until you give up and go home.
If the people around you also share your distaste for 8th edition it should be easy to find one other person brave enough to try something new.
Crimson Devil wrote: It makes no sense to me. I can appreciate loving the models, but why use GW's rules? I have dozens of games and lots of miniatures. The games with rules I don't like, I don't play. If I want to use those minis I'll find a game they fit in. Their are plenty of adaptions of 40k all over the net. Conversions for Bolt Action, AoS, & DUST are just the ones off the top of my head. So why put yourselves through playing a game you hate?
It must be some form of sadomasochism.
If you play at a store, then you can only play only the way the store owners are ok with. You can't just use Dust rules and play w40k with 20 models, even if they support the game, because they want to sell stuff for the game and don't care what you already have. And yes I do understand that in some places around the world people have huge houses and don't play at stores. It is not the norm in every country in the world. It is probablly a minority of places world wide, that can play like that.
I play at a store every weekend and not a single store in Utah I've played regularly at has that sort of restriction.
For the record: Gajo Games, Comics Utah, MRS Hobbies, & Hastur Hobbies.
Peregrine wrote:
Conversion rules are great, but only if you have people to play with. If you show up at a store on 40k night everyone else is going to expect to use the standard 40k rules, not some obscure conversion for a different game that nobody else has ever heard of. So you either play with the 40k rules, or you sit in the corner wishing you could do something with your models until you give up and go home.
If the people around you also share your distaste for 8th edition it should be easy to find one other person brave enough to try something new.
That's the problem these people are having. More people are playing 40k then ever because the rules (while not perfect, no game ever is) are very good and fun. So people that hate 8th come to dakka to complain about how books are too heavy and digital versions might need you to bring a charger. They will tell you that x rule is broken but at the same time updating the rules to fix it is making the game too complicated. That they hated how some codexes never got updated in an edition but 8th is too complicated because codexes are coming out too fast.......
Meanwhile, everyone at their store is just having fun playing on 40k night..... and they hate that
Look man, there's no way I'm going to change your mind but I will say this:
I have played with and without USRs and the current system is WAY better and easier to use. I like the new system and I dislike USRs. Fight me I guess.
Crimson Devil wrote: It makes no sense to me. I can appreciate loving the models, but why use GW's rules? I have dozens of games and lots of miniatures. The games with rules I don't like, I don't play. If I want to use those minis I'll find a game they fit in. Their are plenty of adaptions of 40k all over the net. Conversions for Bolt Action, AoS, & DUST are just the ones off the top of my head. So why put yourselves through playing a game you hate?
It must be some form of sadomasochism.
If you play at a store, then you can only play only the way the store owners are ok with. You can't just use Dust rules and play w40k with 20 models, even if they support the game, because they want to sell stuff for the game and don't care what you already have. And yes I do understand that in some places around the world people have huge houses and don't play at stores. It is not the norm in every country in the world. It is probablly a minority of places world wide, that can play like that.
This is once again, your toxic local, not how store's work. Once I buy my toys im free to play with whatever game I like, I've never even heard of restricting people's rules as a store owner as being a thing.
You have all these stories of where you play just being an absolute cesspit that I'm really skeptical they are all true, and I suspect a lot of it is embellished for the sake of your point at the time, but thats just my suspicion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 20:25:26
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Crimson Devil wrote: It makes no sense to me. I can appreciate loving the models, but why use GW's rules? I have dozens of games and lots of miniatures. The games with rules I don't like, I don't play. If I want to use those minis I'll find a game they fit in. Their are plenty of adaptions of 40k all over the net. Conversions for Bolt Action, AoS, & DUST are just the ones off the top of my head. So why put yourselves through playing a game you hate?
It must be some form of sadomasochism.
If you play at a store, then you can only play only the way the store owners are ok with. You can't just use Dust rules and play w40k with 20 models, even if they support the game, because they want to sell stuff for the game and don't care what you already have. And yes I do understand that in some places around the world people have huge houses and don't play at stores. It is not the norm in every country in the world. It is probablly a minority of places world wide, that can play like that.
I play at a store every weekend and not a single store in Utah I've played regularly at has that sort of restriction.
For the record: Gajo Games, Comics Utah, MRS Hobbies, & Hastur Hobbies.
Peregrine wrote:
Conversion rules are great, but only if you have people to play with. If you show up at a store on 40k night everyone else is going to expect to use the standard 40k rules, not some obscure conversion for a different game that nobody else has ever heard of. So you either play with the 40k rules, or you sit in the corner wishing you could do something with your models until you give up and go home.
If the people around you also share your distaste for 8th edition it should be easy to find one other person brave enough to try something new.
That's the problem these people are having. More people are playing 40k then ever because the rules (while not perfect, no game ever is) are very good and fun. So people that hate 8th come to dakka to complain about how books are too heavy and digital versions might need you to bring a charger. They will tell you that x rule is broken but at the same time updating the rules to fix it is making the game too complicated. That they hated how some codexes never got updated in an edition but 8th is too complicated because codexes are coming out too fast.......
Meanwhile, everyone at their store is just having fun playing on 40k night..... and they hate that
Way to go misrepresenting people issues, were not a group BTW, many people dislike 8th for many reasons.
Me for example, I dislike that it is missing large sections of necessary rules (such as terrain interaction), has essentially brought back a set of rules for psychic powers that has been tried before and didn’t work, a lot (not all) of the codexs lack ... soul... for lack of a better term (subjective), implemented a set of rules that would clearly cause issues and claimed it had been playtested, I could go on but you get the point, but do I hate 8th?
No, do I like it, no, not in it’s current state and needs another year or so of development, I have faith that it will become the kind of game I want to play and until then I will stick with HH, necromunda and kill team if it pans out.
So don’t lie and try to detract from peoples genuine grievances, it’s morally dishonest of you.
That's a fair statement Formosa and makes your opinion seem a bit more rational, but they be fair to the guy you gave the opposite impression of that so far. On top of that, even if it doesn't apply to you there is many others it definitely does, if it doesn't apply to you there is no reason to get offended if you dislike 8th for more grounded reasons
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 22:20:18
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Crimson Devil wrote: It makes no sense to me. I can appreciate loving the models, but why use GW's rules? I have dozens of games and lots of miniatures. The games with rules I don't like, I don't play. If I want to use those minis I'll find a game they fit in. Their are plenty of adaptions of 40k all over the net. Conversions for Bolt Action, AoS, & DUST are just the ones off the top of my head. So why put yourselves through playing a game you hate?
It must be some form of sadomasochism.
If you play at a store, then you can only play only the way the store owners are ok with. You can't just use Dust rules and play w40k with 20 models, even if they support the game, because they want to sell stuff for the game and don't care what you already have. And yes I do understand that in some places around the world people have huge houses and don't play at stores. It is not the norm in every country in the world. It is probablly a minority of places world wide, that can play like that.
I play at a store every weekend and not a single store in Utah I've played regularly at has that sort of restriction.
For the record: Gajo Games, Comics Utah, MRS Hobbies, & Hastur Hobbies.
Peregrine wrote:
Conversion rules are great, but only if you have people to play with. If you show up at a store on 40k night everyone else is going to expect to use the standard 40k rules, not some obscure conversion for a different game that nobody else has ever heard of. So you either play with the 40k rules, or you sit in the corner wishing you could do something with your models until you give up and go home.
If the people around you also share your distaste for 8th edition it should be easy to find one other person brave enough to try something new.
That's the problem these people are having. More people are playing 40k then ever because the rules (while not perfect, no game ever is) are very good and fun. So people that hate 8th come to dakka to complain about how books are too heavy and digital versions might need you to bring a charger. They will tell you that x rule is broken but at the same time updating the rules to fix it is making the game too complicated. That they hated how some codexes never got updated in an edition but 8th is too complicated because codexes are coming out too fast.......
Meanwhile, everyone at their store is just having fun playing on 40k night..... and they hate that
Way to go misrepresenting people issues, were not a group BTW, many people dislike 8th for many reasons.
Me for example, I dislike that it is missing large sections of necessary rules (such as terrain interaction), has essentially brought back a set of rules for psychic powers that has been tried before and didn’t work, a lot (not all) of the codexs lack ... soul... for lack of a better term (subjective), implemented a set of rules that would clearly cause issues and claimed it had been playtested, I could go on but you get the point, but do I hate 8th?
No, do I like it, no, not in it’s current state and needs another year or so of development, I have faith that it will become the kind of game I want to play and until then I will stick with HH, necromunda and kill team if it pans out.
So don’t lie and try to detract from peoples genuine grievances, it’s morally dishonest of you.
The comment wasn't directly pointed at you but all the comments in this and dozens of other threads that present circular arguments of why 8th is the worst. Such as
>There are too many books that are too heavy
>Then use the digital books
>I like the feel of real books
Or
>8th is the worst because x unit is overpowered
>GW releases point adjustment for unit x
>OMG they change everything so fast nobody can keep up this game is terrible
Or
>8th has terrible rules and everybody hates it
>then play a different game
>I cant everyone else is playing and enjoying 8th
As everyone keeps saying 8th is not a perfect game, but GW is clearly listening to feedback and constantly improving. At this point, if people have issues with the core of what 8th is they really should just try looking for a new game. I say this not because I want people to leave the game or i want people that don't agree with me to leave. I say this because with the way 40k is expanding and the numbers they are pulling in sales they aren't going to change course anytime soon. You can come and scream about how the games needs to be more like HH or 7th or a dozen different systems, but as long as 40k keeps pumping out such good numbers the core of the game isnt going to change.
SHUPPET wrote: That's a fair statement Formosa and makes your opinion seem a bit more rational, but they be fair to the guy you gave the opposite impression of that so far. On top of that, even if it doesn't apply to you there is many others it definitely does, if it doesn't apply to you there is no reason to get offended if you dislike 8th for more grounded reasons
The only thing that offends me is when people try to dismiss others opinions, I may not agree with people that 8th is any good or not but I have NEVER tried to dismiss their opinions, I could easily just say that anyone that likes 8th is a white knight moron, but I don’t, because I understand that we are a varied bunch with many reasons to like and dislike things.
But let’s end this comment on a positive for a change, here’s what I DO alike about 8th.
Vehicles and montrous creatures have a T value, saves and wounds, they also degrade, which I think is quite good.
Move and fire heavy weapons, tanks being able to actually shoot on the move, varied move values.
Command points, I think how they are generated is dim, but really like the idea itself, it’s about time they added something g like this to 40k.
SHUPPET wrote: That's a fair statement Formosa and makes your opinion seem a bit more rational, but they be fair to the guy you gave the opposite impression of that so far. On top of that, even if it doesn't apply to you there is many others it definitely does, if it doesn't apply to you there is no reason to get offended if you dislike 8th for more grounded reasons
And what exactly about the anti-8th opinions that people are expressing isn't grounded? Because it sure seems like your criteria for "grounded" is expressing positive opinions and confidence that GW will get it right soon, and any purely negative opinions are dismissed as irrational.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asmodios wrote: >There are too many books that are too heavy
>Then use the digital books
>I like the feel of real books
This is not a circular argument. What people want here is a real book, but 1-2 real books that cover everything they need, not 5+ books. It's a very specific desire, but it is not circular and GW is not meeting it.
Or
>8th is the worst because x unit is overpowered
>GW releases point adjustment for unit x
>OMG they change everything so fast nobody can keep up this game is terrible
This is also not circular. The objection is not that GW is changing the rules, it's that GW is quickly changing stuff because they are apparently incapable of doing proper playtesting and catching this stuff before it is published. It is entirely legitimate to object to rapid changes in the rules that wouldn't exist if GW did their job.
Or
>8th has terrible rules and everybody hates it
>then play a different game
>I cant everyone else is playing and enjoying 8th
Nope, not circular either. 8th can still be terrible even if it's the dominant game in the market, and that dominance can have reasons unrelated to rules. Stuck in an area where the only convenient store is a GW store? It's 40k or nothing. People in your area really like GW's models? Good luck convincing them to use some obscure fan-made rules for another system instead of taking the easy way out and playing the game they already know. The reality is that, for a lot of people, the choice is between playing a badly flawed game or playing nothing at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 22:52:17
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Crimson Devil wrote: It makes no sense to me. I can appreciate loving the models, but why use GW's rules? I have dozens of games and lots of miniatures. The games with rules I don't like, I don't play. If I want to use those minis I'll find a game they fit in. Their are plenty of adaptions of 40k all over the net. Conversions for Bolt Action, AoS, & DUST are just the ones off the top of my head. So why put yourselves through playing a game you hate?
It must be some form of sadomasochism.
If you play at a store, then you can only play only the way the store owners are ok with. You can't just use Dust rules and play w40k with 20 models, even if they support the game, because they want to sell stuff for the game and don't care what you already have. And yes I do understand that in some places around the world people have huge houses and don't play at stores. It is not the norm in every country in the world. It is probablly a minority of places world wide, that can play like that.
I play at a store every weekend and not a single store in Utah I've played regularly at has that sort of restriction.
For the record: Gajo Games, Comics Utah, MRS Hobbies, & Hastur Hobbies.
Peregrine wrote:
Conversion rules are great, but only if you have people to play with. If you show up at a store on 40k night everyone else is going to expect to use the standard 40k rules, not some obscure conversion for a different game that nobody else has ever heard of. So you either play with the 40k rules, or you sit in the corner wishing you could do something with your models until you give up and go home.
If the people around you also share your distaste for 8th edition it should be easy to find one other person brave enough to try something new.
That's the problem these people are having. More people are playing 40k then ever because the rules (while not perfect, no game ever is) are very good and fun. So people that hate 8th come to dakka to complain about how books are too heavy and digital versions might need you to bring a charger. They will tell you that x rule is broken but at the same time updating the rules to fix it is making the game too complicated. That they hated how some codexes never got updated in an edition but 8th is too complicated because codexes are coming out too fast.......
Meanwhile, everyone at their store is just having fun playing on 40k night..... and they hate that
Way to go misrepresenting people issues, were not a group BTW, many people dislike 8th for many reasons.
Me for example, I dislike that it is missing large sections of necessary rules (such as terrain interaction), has essentially brought back a set of rules for psychic powers that has been tried before and didn’t work, a lot (not all) of the codexs lack ... soul... for lack of a better term (subjective), implemented a set of rules that would clearly cause issues and claimed it had been playtested, I could go on but you get the point, but do I hate 8th?
No, do I like it, no, not in it’s current state and needs another year or so of development, I have faith that it will become the kind of game I want to play and until then I will stick with HH, necromunda and kill team if it pans out.
So don’t lie and try to detract from peoples genuine grievances, it’s morally dishonest of you.
The comment wasn't directly pointed at you but all the comments in this and dozens of other threads that present circular arguments of why 8th is the worst. Such as
>There are too many books that are too heavy
>Then use the digital books
>I like the feel of real books
Or
>8th is the worst because x unit is overpowered
>GW releases point adjustment for unit x
>OMG they change everything so fast nobody can keep up this game is terrible
Or
>8th has terrible rules and everybody hates it
>then play a different game
>I cant everyone else is playing and enjoying 8th
As everyone keeps saying 8th is not a perfect game, but GW is clearly listening to feedback and constantly improving. At this point, if people have issues with the core of what 8th is they really should just try looking for a new game. I say this not because I want people to leave the game or i want people that don't agree with me to leave. I say this because with the way 40k is expanding and the numbers they are pulling in sales they aren't going to change course anytime soon. You can come and scream about how the games needs to be more like HH or 7th or a dozen different systems, but as long as 40k keeps pumping out such good numbers the core of the game isnt going to change.
Who’s screaming ?
Who wants 8th to be 7th?
The core game has changed several times since it was released... sooo yeah.. thats a thing.
Is the game constantly improving, that’s pretty subjective, for example my primary army is Deathwing, so to me the game has taken a negative turn, but I’m able to think critically and understand that overall the DS and rule of 3 are ... ok ish for now, they need more work.
And no, if people have an issue with 8th they should endeaver to encourage GW to change it, like you just claimed, they are listening, or are you implying that only YOUR opinion is worth listening to, and people that agree with you? Seems like a double standard to me.
But to your main point.
There are too many books, too much paperwork, this isn’t new and nor is the grievance, 3rd was th worst offender for this and 8th is catching up fast, but guess what, is long tooth old gamers remember the old chapter approved compendiums, so does GW thankfully, so here’s hoping they bring that back in and include all the FAQ in chapter approved compendiums.
Digital books are impractical, small screens for phones, sluggish systems, poor optimisation, lack of support for android (until recently), but it’s getting better thankfully so this won’t be an issue for long.
People liking real books is fine, no problem there.
8th is terrible and everyone hates it, 8th is great and anyone who hates it is a moaner, screaming or a whiner... double standard again.
Then play a different game, or you know, make it known you don’t like something, since GW is listening like you said...
I can’t everyone else is enjoying 8th... everyone eh, everyone.... well clearly that’s not true.
Do you not see the irony of what you are posting ?
SHUPPET wrote: That's a fair statement Formosa and makes your opinion seem a bit more rational, but they be fair to the guy you gave the opposite impression of that so far. On top of that, even if it doesn't apply to you there is many others it definitely does, if it doesn't apply to you there is no reason to get offended if you dislike 8th for more grounded reasons
And what exactly about the anti-8th opinions that people are expressing isn't grounded? Because it sure seems like your criteria for "grounded" is expressing positive opinions and confidence that GW will get it right soon, and any purely negative opinions are dismissed as irrational.
I mean you must have read the quote, so you already know the answer to that question. You just don't care about reality - you're Peregrine.
If you cant tell a difference for example between Formosa's critique of 8th and why he dislikes it in that post there, that I can disagree with but yet respect as a differing opinion and one at least built off reason, as opposed to the other guys in here who hate 8th because "the codexes are too heavy and I hate erratas and GW has a grudge against Grey Knights and wants them to suffer" and whatever other dumb reasons, well there's nothing else to be said really, and that's just you as a person. We get it, you hate 8th for ALL the reasons, just like you did for 7th, just like you did for 6th, just like you did for 5th, and that's as far back as I remember seeing you post. But not all reasoning is created equally and you're damn right that I'll dismiss some of it as irrational, just because it's someone else's opinion doesn't give it some automatic right of validity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 23:30:02
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Crimson Devil wrote: It makes no sense to me. I can appreciate loving the models, but why use GW's rules? I have dozens of games and lots of miniatures. The games with rules I don't like, I don't play. If I want to use those minis I'll find a game they fit in. Their are plenty of adaptions of 40k all over the net. Conversions for Bolt Action, AoS, & DUST are just the ones off the top of my head. So why put yourselves through playing a game you hate?
It must be some form of sadomasochism.
If you play at a store, then you can only play only the way the store owners are ok with. You can't just use Dust rules and play w40k with 20 models, even if they support the game, because they want to sell stuff for the game and don't care what you already have. And yes I do understand that in some places around the world people have huge houses and don't play at stores. It is not the norm in every country in the world. It is probablly a minority of places world wide, that can play like that.
I play at a store every weekend and not a single store in Utah I've played regularly at has that sort of restriction.
For the record: Gajo Games, Comics Utah, MRS Hobbies, & Hastur Hobbies.
Peregrine wrote:
Conversion rules are great, but only if you have people to play with. If you show up at a store on 40k night everyone else is going to expect to use the standard 40k rules, not some obscure conversion for a different game that nobody else has ever heard of. So you either play with the 40k rules, or you sit in the corner wishing you could do something with your models until you give up and go home.
If the people around you also share your distaste for 8th edition it should be easy to find one other person brave enough to try something new.
That's the problem these people are having. More people are playing 40k then ever because the rules (while not perfect, no game ever is) are very good and fun. So people that hate 8th come to dakka to complain about how books are too heavy and digital versions might need you to bring a charger. They will tell you that x rule is broken but at the same time updating the rules to fix it is making the game too complicated. That they hated how some codexes never got updated in an edition but 8th is too complicated because codexes are coming out too fast.......
Meanwhile, everyone at their store is just having fun playing on 40k night..... and they hate that
Way to go misrepresenting people issues, were not a group BTW, many people dislike 8th for many reasons.
Me for example, I dislike that it is missing large sections of necessary rules (such as terrain interaction), has essentially brought back a set of rules for psychic powers that has been tried before and didn’t work, a lot (not all) of the codexs lack ... soul... for lack of a better term (subjective), implemented a set of rules that would clearly cause issues and claimed it had been playtested, I could go on but you get the point, but do I hate 8th?
No, do I like it, no, not in it’s current state and needs another year or so of development, I have faith that it will become the kind of game I want to play and until then I will stick with HH, necromunda and kill team if it pans out.
So don’t lie and try to detract from peoples genuine grievances, it’s morally dishonest of you.
The comment wasn't directly pointed at you but all the comments in this and dozens of other threads that present circular arguments of why 8th is the worst. Such as
>There are too many books that are too heavy
>Then use the digital books
>I like the feel of real books
Or
>8th is the worst because x unit is overpowered
>GW releases point adjustment for unit x
>OMG they change everything so fast nobody can keep up this game is terrible
Or
>8th has terrible rules and everybody hates it
>then play a different game
>I cant everyone else is playing and enjoying 8th
As everyone keeps saying 8th is not a perfect game, but GW is clearly listening to feedback and constantly improving. At this point, if people have issues with the core of what 8th is they really should just try looking for a new game. I say this not because I want people to leave the game or i want people that don't agree with me to leave. I say this because with the way 40k is expanding and the numbers they are pulling in sales they aren't going to change course anytime soon. You can come and scream about how the games needs to be more like HH or 7th or a dozen different systems, but as long as 40k keeps pumping out such good numbers the core of the game isnt going to change.
Who’s screaming ?
Who wants 8th to be 7th?
The core game has changed several times since it was released... sooo yeah.. thats a thing.
Is the game constantly improving, that’s pretty subjective, for example my primary army is Deathwing, so to me the game has taken a negative turn, but I’m able to think critically and understand that overall the DS and rule of 3 are ... ok ish for now, they need more work.
And no, if people have an issue with 8th they should endeaver to encourage GW to change it, like you just claimed, they are listening, or are you implying that only YOUR opinion is worth listening to, and people that agree with you? Seems like a double standard to me.
But to your main point.
There are too many books, too much paperwork, this isn’t new and nor is the grievance, 3rd was th worst offender for this and 8th is catching up fast, but guess what, is long tooth old gamers remember the old chapter approved compendiums, so does GW thankfully, so here’s hoping they bring that back in and include all the FAQ in chapter approved compendiums.
Digital books are impractical, small screens for phones, sluggish systems, poor optimisation, lack of support for android (until recently), but it’s getting better thankfully so this won’t be an issue for long.
People liking real books is fine, no problem there.
8th is terrible and everyone hates it, 8th is great and anyone who hates it is a moaner, screaming or a whiner... double standard again.
Then play a different game, or you know, make it known you don’t like something, since GW is listening like you said...
I can’t everyone else is enjoying 8th... everyone eh, everyone.... well clearly that’s not true.
Do you not see the irony of what you are posting ?
[/spoiler]
You missed the entire point when I say the core of the game. Those that fundamentally hate 8th are going to be disappointed because with the recent success. Let me give some exact examples of this because you seem to be struggling (also with the concept that i was never responding specifically to your critisism)
1. The weight of the books
The original grievance was with the weight of the books. The suggestion is then made to just get digital. This goes around until the point that they are getting at the whole time is that GW should do free rules that are 100% downloadable.
>This is an issue with the "core" way GW makes money on its rules. Until it looses significant market share because of it and state to take a loss on codexes and rule books this will not change (GW is making money hand over fist with every codex release)
2. 8th is terrible and needs to be more like game x (this is common in tons of threads, once again wasn't specifically pointing out any of your posts)
There is a big difference between the thread the other week about rhinos and the typically "8th is terrible post". The rhino post was someone who found that transports struggle this edition, wanted to fix it and had suggestions on how they would. The other type of post is "x game does everything better and 40k should be like it"
>This is an issue with the core of the game. GW is not going to start emulating smaller less successful games while there's is on the rise. They might take into consideration things like a transport change or the beta deep strike rule when people suggest it, but they aren't going to become X game. Why would they? they make more money then X game and their market share is increasing with 8th not decreasing.
So once again 8th is definitely not perfect, but the CORE of the game is not going to change and for the posters (everyone knows who they are) that derail most threads into "8th is the worst" are going to just keep being disapointed because the direction of 8th is not going to change. We might get a new edition but its going to be 8th 2.0 if they keep making money like they are.
SHUPPET wrote: I mean you must have read the quote, so you already know the answer to that question. You just don't care about reality - you're Peregrine.
If you cant tell a difference for example between Formosa's critique of 8th and why he dislikes it in that post there, that I can disagree with but yet respect as a differing opinion and one at least built off reason, as opposed to the other guys in here who hate 8th because "the codexes are too heavy and I hate erratas and GW has a grudge against Grey Knights and wants them to suffer" and whatever other dumb reasons, well there's nothing else to be said really, and that's just you as a person. We get it, you hate 8th for ALL the reasons, just like you did for 7th, just like you did for 6th, just like you did for 5th, and that's as far back as I remember seeing you post. But not all reasoning is created equally and you're damn right that I'll dismiss some of it as irrational, just because it's someone else's opinion doesn't give it some automatic right of validity.
IOW, you're doing exactly what I said: dismissing opinions you don't agree with as "irrational". Complaining about the weight of books is a legitimate issue, even if you personally don't care about it. Recall that at least one person making the complaint has to take public transportation to a game, so weight matters far more than it would if you're driving your own car. I don't know about "GW just hates GK", that's clearly absurd but I don't see that being more than a tiny and irrelevant minority of criticism about 8th.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
SHUPPET wrote: That's a fair statement Formosa and makes your opinion seem a bit more rational, but they be fair to the guy you gave the opposite impression of that so far. On top of that, even if it doesn't apply to you there is many others it definitely does, if it doesn't apply to you there is no reason to get offended if you dislike 8th for more grounded reasons
And what exactly about the anti-8th opinions that people are expressing isn't grounded? Because it sure seems like your criteria for "grounded" is expressing positive opinions and confidence that GW will get it right soon, and any purely negative opinions are dismissed as irrational.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asmodios wrote: >There are too many books that are too heavy
>Then use the digital books
>I like the feel of real books
This is not a circular argument. What people want here is a real book, but 1-2 real books that cover everything they need, not 5+ books. It's a very specific desire, but it is not circular and GW is not meeting it.
Or
>8th is the worst because x unit is overpowered
>GW releases point adjustment for unit x
>OMG they change everything so fast nobody can keep up this game is terrible
This is also not circular. The objection is not that GW is changing the rules, it's that GW is quickly changing stuff because they are apparently incapable of doing proper playtesting and catching this stuff before it is published. It is entirely legitimate to object to rapid changes in the rules that wouldn't exist if GW did their job.
Or
>8th has terrible rules and everybody hates it
>then play a different game
>I cant everyone else is playing and enjoying 8th
Nope, not circular either. 8th can still be terrible even if it's the dominant game in the market, and that dominance can have reasons unrelated to rules. Stuck in an area where the only convenient store is a GW store? It's 40k or nothing. People in your area really like GW's models? Good luck convincing them to use some obscure fan-made rules for another system instead of taking the easy way out and playing the game they already know. The reality is that, for a lot of people, the choice is between playing a badly flawed game or playing nothing at all.
Sorry is just can't take anyone seriously that says 8th and everyone hates it and that can coexist with 8th dominating the game market right now. 7th was terrible.... i can say that because GWs numbers reflected it and they lost a huge portion or market share. 8th is a very good game and the masses are voting with their wallets. It's "40k or nothing" right now because 8th is good and making money.
Asmodios wrote: Sorry is just can't take anyone seriously that says 8th and everyone hates it and that can coexist with 8th dominating the game market right now.
Then you aren't understanding the market. GW has three major advantages that other games don't have:
1) A chain of retail stores where only their products are permitted. This is more true in the UK than in the US, but in a lot of places the only store available is a GW store and that means the only games available are GW games. So it very much is 40k or nothing.
2) Very successful fluff and model design. Other games have fluff of course, but a lot of people simply love what GW produces and will continue to buy and play even when the rules are bad.
3) As a result of their past dominance of the market, a large number of people with an investment in 40k already. These people are looking for any excuse to use the armies they've already spent money and time on, so showing any signs of improvement over 7th is going to bring a lot of them back even if the game is still pretty bad. I suspect that most of GW's increase in sales is former players deciding to give it another try because it can't be as bad as 7th, not recruiting new customers at a higher rate with a superior product.
Add up all three of these factors and GW can have a huge share of the market while continuing to publish terrible rules.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
SHUPPET wrote: That's a fair statement Formosa and makes your opinion seem a bit more rational, but they be fair to the guy you gave the opposite impression of that so far. On top of that, even if it doesn't apply to you there is many others it definitely does, if it doesn't apply to you there is no reason to get offended if you dislike 8th for more grounded reasons
And what exactly about the anti-8th opinions that people are expressing isn't grounded? Because it sure seems like your criteria for "grounded" is expressing positive opinions and confidence that GW will get it right soon, and any purely negative opinions are dismissed as irrational.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asmodios wrote: >There are too many books that are too heavy
>Then use the digital books
>I like the feel of real books
This is not a circular argument. What people want here is a real book, but 1-2 real books that cover everything they need, not 5+ books. It's a very specific desire, but it is not circular and GW is not meeting it.
Or
>8th is the worst because x unit is overpowered
>GW releases point adjustment for unit x
>OMG they change everything so fast nobody can keep up this game is terrible
This is also not circular. The objection is not that GW is changing the rules, it's that GW is quickly changing stuff because they are apparently incapable of doing proper playtesting and catching this stuff before it is published. It is entirely legitimate to object to rapid changes in the rules that wouldn't exist if GW did their job.
Or
>8th has terrible rules and everybody hates it
>then play a different game
>I cant everyone else is playing and enjoying 8th
Nope, not circular either. 8th can still be terrible even if it's the dominant game in the market, and that dominance can have reasons unrelated to rules. Stuck in an area where the only convenient store is a GW store? It's 40k or nothing. People in your area really like GW's models? Good luck convincing them to use some obscure fan-made rules for another system instead of taking the easy way out and playing the game they already know. The reality is that, for a lot of people, the choice is between playing a badly flawed game or playing nothing at all.
Sorry is just can't take anyone seriously that says 8th and everyone hates it and that can coexist with 8th dominating the game market right now. 7th was terrible.... i can say that because GWs numbers reflected it and they lost a huge portion or market share. 8th is a very good game and the masses are voting with their wallets. It's "40k or nothing" right now because 8th is good and making money.
Who says everyone hates 8th? All I keep hearing is people saying everyone loves it, which also isn’t true, you know when you generalise a group it winds people up right?
And no, if people have an issue with 8th they should endeaver to encourage GW to change it
I agree, but I don't think many people give that sort of constructive feedback. The narratives I see from some many people painting GW as this malicious uncaring entity out to punish players is just like the opposite, and as a designer gives zero reason to do anything other than chalk such people up as a loon or even a shill or detractor for other companies. To be clear, I'm not talking about you, as I think yours was the kind that could be taken on board, and if enough people felt the similar way that could be reflected en masse, all by the power of constructive feedback, to a company that is listening more so now than ever.
However, while they are listening I highly doubt they are listening to Dakka. This forum has well and truly shot it's credibility with the incessant whining, and if they want constructive feedback you know this is there last place they are checking.
I can only imagine Johnny G. Workshop, sitting here refreshing this forum like "oh damn, another thread talking about how much I hate assault and want it to fail and exposing my Xenos bias, I really can't catch a break here"
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Asmodios wrote: Sorry is just can't take anyone seriously that says 8th and everyone hates it and that can coexist with 8th dominating the game market right now.
Then you aren't understanding the market. GW has three major advantages that other games don't have:
1) A chain of retail stores where only their products are permitted. This is more true in the UK than in the US, but in a lot of places the only store available is a GW store and that means the only games available are GW games. So it very much is 40k or nothing.
2) Very successful fluff and model design. Other games have fluff of course, but a lot of people simply love what GW produces and will continue to buy and play even when the rules are bad.
3) As a result of their past dominance of the market, a large number of people with an investment in 40k already. These people are looking for any excuse to use the armies they've already spent money and time on, so showing any signs of improvement over 7th is going to bring a lot of them back even if the game is still pretty bad. I suspect that most of GW's increase in sales is former players deciding to give it another try because it can't be as bad as 7th, not recruiting new customers at a higher rate with a superior product.
Add up all three of these factors and GW can have a huge share of the market while continuing to publish terrible rules.
Funny that non of that stuff mattered during 7th when they lost a massive amount of market share. I love how upset you get every time i bring up how much money 8th is making GW. The finical report crashed every hope you had of 8th being a failure.
And no, if people have an issue with 8th they should endeaver to encourage GW to change it
I agree, but I don't think many people give that sort of constructive feedback. The narratives I see from some many people painting GW as this malicious uncaring entity out to punish players is just like the opposite, and as a designer gives zero reason to do anything other than chalk such people up as a loon or even a shill or detractor for other companies. To be clear, I'm not talking about you, as I think yours was the kind that could be taken on board, and if enough people felt the similar way that could be reflected en masse, all by the power of constructive feedback, to a company that is listening more so now than ever.
However, while they are listening I highly doubt they are listening to Dakka. This forum has well and truly shot it's credibility with the incessant whining, and if they want constructive feedback you know this is there last place they are checking.
I can only imagine Johnny G. Workshop, sitting here refreshing this forum like "oh damn, another thread talking about how much I hate assault and want it to fail and exposing my Xenos bias, I really can't catch a break here"
^
Couldn't have said it any better
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/06 00:36:13
Asmodios wrote: Funny that non of that stuff mattered during 7th when they lost a massive amount of market share. I love how upset you get every time i bring up how much money 8th is making GW. The finical report crashed every hope you had of 8th being a failure.
Of course that stuff mattered in 7th. Those factors are why GW still exists as a company despite the utter debacle that was 7th edition and the initial AoS release. People forget that, as bad as GW's situation was in 7th, they still made a profit in every financial report. Things could have been much worse, and would have been much worse for pretty much any other company that published such broken products for such a long period of time.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
As much as I love 8th edition... yeah, GW really should at least try to present their rules in a comprehensible and easy to access way. What they have done with AoS in 2.0, if you want to access all the "Basic" rules is infuriating.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
8th is the most popular edition ever eh? Can you prove that ?
A massive success ? Can you prove that? Can you prove that as the only marketed edition that is purely down to the rules?
People have reacted positively to the rules? Well that’s demonstably false, reactions have been mixed, leaning to the positive, but certainly not “at all levels of the game”
There is a vocal minority, but it’s the white knights, not the detractors, sure a couple of the detractors have said they don’t like the game, but they are in no way as unbearable as the white knights who refuse to see any fault and lack the ability to think critically.
We want a better game, we want the issues to be ironed out and to quote myself
“I Think 8th will eventually be the game I want to play, I feel like it’s still in the beta stages and given time it will develop into a good and well rounded game, then I will come back to it”
Hardly the screaming of a person who “plays to complain”
In the period we launched a new edition of Warhammer 40,000. The launch month, June 2017, reached new heights for us, which was no real surprise as the models and supporting gaming mechanics were better than ever.
Warhammer 40,000 - our most popular and recognisable brand is a space fantasy setting.
Just in case anyone was planning on pretending that this success was like, all coming from AoS or HH or some nonsense.
I think it's say to safe the vocal minority is not the people enjoying the game. It's great to get some hard numbers out here, because it really shines a light on the accuracy of what we've been saying.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/01 06:03:45
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
My 2 cents into this discussion and whether 8th is doing bad or not.
I can say that 8th has been doing very well here locally and everybody seems to like the rules. In fact, the only place I see people vehemently complain about 8th edition rules and books is here on Dakkadakka. I was in a tournament the other day and nobody brought more than a Codex and then there was a rulebook passed around if people were suffering from memory loss. Even I just brought my Craftworld Codex and 8th edition rule leaflet, and my Craftworld stratagem/psychic cards.
I would also add that there are no "superior" rules. These are all arguments I have seen in every single other Wargame, and I can't imagine that's going to change anytime soon. Everybody else has their unique subjective view of a superior ruleset and it is hard to hit those specific notes. I personally think 8th has hit a very good middle-ground, but again, that is a personal opinion.
A return to USR would also make the possibility of unit reference cards easier. As the special rules are on the unit entry it is going to make for rather large cards, as the rules will need to be listed.
I honestly think that unit reference cards like that found in Warmachine and Hordes would help to cut down on a lot of the need to carry so many books. There could also be cards that have the sub-faction rules/traits/abilities etc.
I collect several factions for 40k and having to flick through several codexes to recall stat lines and rules can be time consuming, having cards eliminates this.
Once I have painted up my forces I intend to make reference cards tailored to my units.
The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused.
2018/08/01 10:45:30
Subject: Re:Is 40k becoming too complicated again?
A lot of the "special rules" either just have different names with the same results, or are just minor variations.
What they could do with is standardizing them... eg: An example of a standard scheme: Feel No Pain [X+] When a unit with this rule receives a wound, roll 1D6 for each wound. If the roll result is X+, then that wound is ignored. Then on different units you can just put Feel No Pain 6+, or Feel No Pain 5+
Another example could be... Inspiring Leader [X+] [Y] If a unit within Y inches of this unit fails a morale test roll 1D6. If the roll result is X+ the unit which failed the morale test automatically passes it instead. So that rule could be displayed as Inspiring Leader 6+, 12", or Inspiring Leader 5+, 3".
That means that if you know the basics of what Feel No Pain or Inspiring Leader or whatever rule is, you only need to see the X and Y and Zs of the individual rules of that unit.
I suppose you could also call rules different things but just accept that they are a certain rule.... You might have a standard rule called "Horriffic"
Horrific [Y"] Enemy units within Y inches of this unit must take a morale test within their morale phase, whether or not they have lost any models, unless they have a special rule that allows them to automatically pass morale tests.
Then on the unit datasheets you could have Terrifying - Horrific [6"] Smelly - Horrific [3"] Intimidating - Horrific [3"] Each one could have a little lore about it to make it more fun, and have a name more appropriate, but the core rule is the same.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/01 10:49:24
2018/08/01 10:56:21
Subject: Re:Is 40k becoming too complicated again?
TarkinLarson wrote: A lot of the "special rules" either just have different names with the same results, or are just minor variations.
What they could do with is standardizing them... eg: An example of a standard scheme: Feel No Pain [X+] When a unit with this rule receives a wound, roll 1D6 for each wound. If the roll result is X+, then that wound is ignored. Then on different units you can just put Feel No Pain 6+, or Feel No Pain 5+
Another example could be... Inspiring Leader [X+] [Y] If a unit within Y inches of this unit fails a morale test roll 1D6. If the roll result is X+ the unit which failed the morale test automatically passes it instead. So that rule could be displayed as Inspiring Leader 6+, 12", or Inspiring Leader 5+, 3".
That means that if you know the basics of what Feel No Pain or Inspiring Leader or whatever rule is, you only need to see the X and Y and Zs of the individual rules of that unit.
I suppose you could also call rules different things but just accept that they are a certain rule.... You might have a standard rule called "Horriffic"
Horrific [Y"] Enemy units within Y inches of this unit must take a morale test within their morale phase, whether or not they have lost any models, unless they have a special rule that allows them to automatically pass morale tests.
Then on the unit datasheets you could have Terrifying - Horrific [6"] Smelly - Horrific [3"] Intimidating - Horrific [3"] Each one could have a little lore about it to make it more fun, and have a name more appropriate, but the core rule is the same.
We had those. They were called Universal Special Rules. They worked for a while, until GW went nuts in 6th ed and started to make pages of them, most of which had hardly any impact and were found on like 3 units in the entire game, making the "universal" part a bit of a lie.
My only real problem with the special rules is that a lot of them are so...bland. They are usually just some variant of a reroll. Which is fine, I guess, just boring.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/01 10:58:39
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2018/08/01 11:24:45
Subject: Re:Is 40k becoming too complicated again?
TarkinLarson wrote: A lot of the "special rules" either just have different names with the same results, or are just minor variations.
What they could do with is standardizing them... eg:
An example of a standard scheme:
Feel No Pain [X+]
When a unit with this rule receives a wound, roll 1D6 for each wound. If the roll result is X+, then that wound is ignored.
Then on different units you can just put Feel No Pain 6+, or Feel No Pain 5+
Another example could be...
Inspiring Leader [X+] [Y]
If a unit within Y inches of this unit fails a morale test roll 1D6. If the roll result is X+ the unit which failed the morale test automatically passes it instead.
So that rule could be displayed as
Inspiring Leader 6+, 12", or Inspiring Leader 5+, 3".
That means that if you know the basics of what Feel No Pain or Inspiring Leader or whatever rule is, you only need to see the X and Y and Zs of the individual rules of that unit.
I suppose you could also call rules different things but just accept that they are a certain rule....
You might have a standard rule called "Horriffic"
Horrific [Y"]
Enemy units within Y inches of this unit must take a morale test within their morale phase, whether or not they have lost any models, unless they have a special rule that allows them to automatically pass morale tests.
Then on the unit datasheets you could have
Terrifying - Horrific [6"]
Smelly - Horrific [3"]
Intimidating - Horrific [3"]
Each one could have a little lore about it to make it more fun, and have a name more appropriate, but the core rule is the same.
We had those. They were called Universal Special Rules. They worked for a while, until GW went nuts in 6th ed and started to make pages of them, most of which had hardly any impact and were found on like 3 units in the entire game, making the "universal" part a bit of a lie.
My only real problem with the special rules is that a lot of them are so...bland. They are usually just some variant of a reroll. Which is fine, I guess, just boring.
USRs are a good idea, the fact GW went overboard with them and messed them up in 6th/7th doesn't change that. It's completely non-sensical that rules like Feel No Pain/Disgustingly Resilient/I'm So Tough and Deep Strike/Manta Strike/We Were Here All Along aren't consolidated into one rule. We've already seen that this causes problems when GW had to adjust the Deep Strike and FNP rules in the latest beta. Go and look at how they had to describe FNP-style effects in those rules to see why they need USRs.
I wouldn't call 8th edition complicated, but it's bloated and needlessly complex without that complexity adding much extra depth. What a lot of the rules need is an element of choice. That's particularly true of the reroll auras. At the moment it's trivially easy to use those auras because a 6" radius is absolutely huge when you need a single model from a unit in range. A better approach would be to apply buffs to one unit of the player's choice within range.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/01 11:25:21
Just to note, Slipspace, some armies don't have auras and do in-fact apply their buffs to a single unit (or a limited number of units in range). For example, Imperial Guard has no aura bonuses outside of Commissars, but their functional replacement, Orders, is both slightly stronger (since it affects fewer units), and is limited in output.
~4100
~1660
