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USR's work until GW want to give a unit a slightly different version of a USR then it all goes to pot.

Two example: Feel No Pain. Seems simple enough, but what happens when you want to give FNP against only mortal wounds? Now you have a unique special rule that doesn't interact with any other rules that interact with Feel No Pain.

What about explodes? We'd need to have a long string of unintuitive numbers after the explodes rule to replicate all possible variations.

It just ends up in tears and I am glad they are gone.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
USR's work until GW want to give a unit a slightly different version of a USR then it all goes to pot.

Two example: Feel No Pain. Seems simple enough, but what happens when you want to give FNP against only mortal wounds? Now you have a unique special rule that doesn't interact with any other rules that interact with Feel No Pain.

What about explodes? We'd need to have a long string of unintuitive numbers after the explodes rule to replicate all possible variations.

It just ends up in tears and I am glad they are gone.

Sounds less like a problem with usrs and more like a problem with marketing dept squids pushin crack plastic at the expense of the game.

I don't think it's too complex, I would say quite the opposite. Compared to some of the popular board games going around. Warhammer and other tabletop games are not that far from the complexity of those games. The biggest difference is you need a tape measure.

I feel that it's gotten bloated to a degree by the number of books you need. For example to play space marines, I need an index, the codex, chapter approved and the most recent FAQ. Thats four books just for basic options.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I feel that it's gotten bloated to a degree by the number of books you need. For example to play space marines, I need an index, the codex, chapter approved and the most recent FAQ. Thats four books just for basic options.

Or, you need your codex with penciled-in points changes and FAQ notes/printouts.

(or even better, just the digital codex)

People keep saying that once you have your codex, you should trash your index, why do you need yours?

Personally, I'm waiting for the various indexes to go on eBay cheap, and snap them up.

 Blndmage wrote:
People keep saying that once you have your codex, you should trash your index, why do you need yours?

Personally, I'm waiting for the various indexes to go on eBay cheap, and snap them up.

Because he may be a veteran with legacy models that only the index datasheet can cover.

Alternatively, he could be a new player who wants the old legacy models because they like carrying an extra book around.

 Blndmage wrote:
People keep saying that once you have your codex, you should trash your index, why do you need yours?

Personally, I'm waiting for the various indexes to go on eBay cheap, and snap them up.

Cause with out the index there are a good number of options I can't use some of my models because GW decided to dick over long standing players and dumped anything that they couldn't be bothered to put in the box stock.

Codexes are supposed to replace indexes and army specific chapter approved material. That was always GW's intent- I didn't even think it was legal to use indexes and army specific rules from CA once you had your codex.

I don't play Space Marines, so I'm not sure which options used to be possible in the index that are no longer possible in the codex. If that's true, it is a problem- dexes were supposed to be everything in the index + more.

Just for my curiousity (since it'll be a cold day in hell before I ever have an interest in playing Space Marines), could you list some of the "good number" of options you've lost?

PenitentJake wrote:
Codexes are supposed to replace indexes and army specific chapter approved material. That was always GW's intent- I didn't even think it was legal to use indexes and army specific rules from CA once you had your codex.

I don't play Space Marines, so I'm not sure which options used to be possible in the index that are no longer possible in the codex. If that's true, it is a problem- dexes were supposed to be everything in the index + more.

Just for my curiousity (since it'll be a cold day in hell before I ever have an interest in playing Space Marines), could you list some of the "good number" of options you've lost?

IIRC it was in one of the FAQs where they explicitly said that if a particular unit or wargear option isn't in the codex, you can use the relevant entry from the index.

In my case, the Astra Militarum codex no longer has demo charges in their special weapon squads, nor Rough Riders altogether. In order to make use of either, I need to refer to the index in addition to the codex.

PenitentJake wrote:
Codexes are supposed to replace indexes and army specific chapter approved material. That was always GW's intent- I didn't even think it was legal to use indexes and army specific rules from CA once you had your codex.

I don't play Space Marines, so I'm not sure which options used to be possible in the index that are no longer possible in the codex. If that's true, it is a problem- dexes were supposed to be everything in the index + more.

Just for my curiousity (since it'll be a cold day in hell before I ever have an interest in playing Space Marines), could you list some of the "good number" of options you've lost?

GW has allowed us to use options no longer available in the codex. Mostly things no longer represented by the current range of models. Check out page six.
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Off the top of my head, Blood Angels lost the following:

Librarians & Chaplains lost bikes
Sanguinary Priest lost bikes, jump packs and all weapon options
Dreadnoughts lost weapon options
Razorbacks lost the Lascannon/Plasma Turret
Company Veterans, Champions, Ancients, & Sanguinary Initiates lost their jump packs

 BaconCatBug wrote:
USR's work until GW want to give a unit a slightly different version of a USR then it all goes to pot.

Two example: Feel No Pain. Seems simple enough, but what happens when you want to give FNP against only mortal wounds? Now you have a unique special rule that doesn't interact with any other rules that interact with Feel No Pain.

So USRs work until they are no longer universal? Isn't that what bespoke rules are for?

What about explodes? We'd need to have a long string of unintuitive numbers after the explodes rule to replicate all possible variations.

It just ends up in tears and I am glad they are gone.

Explodes, per your example, is an easy fix. This is how MEDGe does it- Range- 1/2 the model's Mass characteristic +D3" Shots- Mass X2- 1 damage- simple, scalable, and one rule.

I believe most factions lost options when the index were supplemented by the codexes. GW could have just left those options in but instead force me to keep an allegedly obsolete book just to use models that in some cases they still sell the bits for.

You don't need to keep the book, just the relevant pages.

Blastaar wrote:


Explodes, per your example, is an easy fix. This is how MEDGe does it- Range- 1/2 the model's Mass characteristic +D3" Shots- Mass X2- 1 damage- simple, scalable, and one rule.

So now we need a Mass characteristic?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
You don't need to keep the book, just the relevant pages.

I didn't start playing 8th until after the codex dropped. I figured I could skip the index only to find out, no I need to buy that as well or I can't use models that have been legal for decades. It's a bad design choice that GW did not need to do.

Those legacy models will most likely not be legal in the next edition. So you may as well convert them to something else at this point.

GW does that, I'l probably sit out next edition.

You just need to look at AoS for that, which is always a good indication to what will happen to 40K.

In AoS legacy factions were kept in a first period, and then in the end phased out and relegated to a category not allowed in matched games.

It's a logical process, you can't put in a codex something that you don't sell, or the new player will be really confused.

It may take an year, or even three, but legacy models will go the Squat route.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
You don't need to keep the book, just the relevant pages.

I didn't start playing 8th until after the codex dropped. I figured I could skip the index only to find out, no I need to buy that as well or I can't use models that have been legal for decades. It's a bad design choice that GW did not need to do.

Those models are still legal for the edition they were released in. It was a business decision, and not an unforeseeable one either.

So through the couple pages ive read ive seen no mention of 8ths advanced rules (expansions i think).

Does anyone even use the rules past the core rules or have a good foundation as to which "advanced" rules should always be used.

Ive complained a lot about 8th over 7th but im starting to realize its not the rules im complaining about as much as the modular delivery of the rules, when i open the book what rules should i be playing by, if someone says all of them then 8th does have more rules and complexity than 7th.

Dandelion wrote:

Blastaar wrote:


Explodes, per your example, is an easy fix. This is how MEDGe does it- Range- 1/2 the model's Mass characteristic +D3" Shots- Mass X2- 1 damage- simple, scalable, and one rule.

So now we need a Mass characteristic?

Not necessarily, just an example of what I think are better ways to do things than 30 rules that are really the same rule only with very minor variations. Codifying things into universal rules or core mechanics is simpler. Don't equate being simple with having few rules. A game can have more than 4 pages of core rules and still be simple (and deep). It's all in the implementation.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
You don't need to keep the book, just the relevant pages.

I didn't start playing 8th until after the codex dropped. I figured I could skip the index only to find out, no I need to buy that as well or I can't use models that have been legal for decades. It's a bad design choice that GW did not need to do.

Those models are still legal for the edition they were released in. It was a business decision, and not an unforeseeable one either.

Um, i'd disagree. It cost GW almost no money to keep rules for models and last i checked they arn't fruit, my dreadnought shouldn't expire. further they eliminated models that if anything would make them more money. If there is not a chaplain on a bike, then i need to buy a bike and buy a chaplain and convert the thing.