Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Marmatag wrote:
There just needs to be a cohesive vision on what GK are supposed to be.

They're not shooty, they don't have the firepower or the range.
They're not strong in melee, they don't have the weight of dice for their cost.
They're not defensive, they have less defenses overall than marines, and low wounds:points ratio.
They're not fast, they have base marine move speeds and 0 enhancements to that.

What should they be good at? They're worse than your average generalist in much of these categories.

That’s because their abilities to counter each flaw listed above rely on the horribly executed Psychic phase and the Beta Deep Strike restriction.

GK have Smite and ranged powers, so their shooting “doesn’t” need to be good.
GK have Force weapons and melee powers, so their melee “doesn’t” need to be good.
GK have a defensive power, so they “don’t” need defensive gear.
GK have Deep Strike, Gate and Shunt, so they “don’t” movement buffs.

GW intentionally nerfed GK because they overvalue Psychic Powers and Deep Strike ... and GW relied on Frontline Gaming to playtest to new rules and codex.

SJ

But hey Reece proved we were playing them wrong the whole time!

Karol if you want to know why there isn't anything in the GK Tactica thread, that is because everything was already discussed and hashed out within the first twenty pages. It is a very shallow codex that has no combos because it gives no CPs, psychic powers that suck, overpriced units, and of course there are the occasional invaders who pop in and try to explain how GK are good and we just don't have the IQ to understand; that it is us as players who cause GK to fail.

Ah ok, I will read the first 20 pages then. I am rather stupid myself, so no wonder I don't get half the stuff. Not that it is different from understanding everyday stuff. It took me 2 years repeating a class to finaly understand that telling the truth at school only gets you in to trouble.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

This whole "must disagree with any statement of any possible positive of space marine models" religion you guys follow is fairly bizarre.

We aren't the ones trying to defend Grey Knights, the literal worst codex of the game.

If you think that's what I'm doing, you have extremely bad reading comprehension.

My original comment was a reply to someone saying "but there's good stuff in here, ungrateful marine players just don't appreciate it!" and the point of my reply was that sure, you can pick out individual things within the book and recognize that in some other army, they'd probably be pretty solid, but when you're stuck trying to make use of those rules with 21-point base space marines, you're going to have a hard time no matter what.

 Quickjager wrote:
Karol if you want to know why there isn't anything in the GK Tactica thread, that is because everything was already discussed and hashed out within the first twenty pages. It is a very shallow codex that has no combos because it gives no CPs, psychic powers that suck, overpriced units, and of course there are the occasional invaders who pop in and try to explain how GK are good and we just don't have the IQ to understand; that it is us as players who cause GK to fail.

Basically.

GK's role in this game was supplanted by Custodes. Because they do literally everything better than GK. More shooty, more mobile, more punch in assault, better stratagems, wound rerolls, FLY, better invulns, better toughness, better strength, etc. For essentially the same cost.

And if you were bringing 3x GMNDK, now you can just bring Imperial Knights next to your Guard. Or just wise the hell up and bring Custodes.

I always laugh when people talk about how buffs to GK would step on Custodes toes. Custodes trampled GK into dust when they were released. The overlap already exists.

This is why I would improve the GK psychic phase. It's what makes them unique. The best way (imho) to do this is with expanded sets of psychic powers, and vastly improved sanctic powers. I would also completely change stratagems and traits. Psybolt ammo should be free in the same way Deathwatch get free insanely stronger way better ammunition for absolute 0 cost.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Karol if you want to know why there isn't anything in the GK Tactica thread, that is because everything was already discussed and hashed out within the first twenty pages. It is a very shallow codex that has no combos because it gives no CPs, psychic powers that suck, overpriced units, and of course there are the occasional invaders who pop in and try to explain how GK are good and we just don't have the IQ to understand; that it is us as players who cause GK to fail.

Basically.

GK's role in this game was supplanted by Custodes. Because they do literally everything better than GK. More shooty, more mobile, more punch in assault, better stratagems, wound rerolls, FLY, better invulns, better toughness, better strength, etc. For essentially the same cost.

And if you were bringing 3x GMNDK, now you can just bring Imperial Knights next to your Guard. Or just wise the hell up and bring Custodes.

I always laugh when people talk about how buffs to GK would step on Custodes toes. Custodes trampled GK into dust when they were released. The overlap already exists.

This is why I would improve the GK psychic phase. It's what makes them unique. The best way (imho) to do this is with expanded sets of psychic powers, and vastly improved sanctic powers. I would also completely change stratagems and traits. Psybolt ammo should be free in the same way Deathwatch get free insanely stronger way better ammunition for absolute 0 cost.

It's technically 1 point per shot, but I don't really disagree with the overall statement.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

This whole "must disagree with any statement of any possible positive of space marine models" religion you guys follow is fairly bizarre.

We aren't the ones trying to defend Grey Knights, the literal worst codex of the game.

Codex Sisters of Battle is better than a codex where you add 1 or 2 squads to an existing army?...
I doubt that very much.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Karol if you want to know why there isn't anything in the GK Tactica thread, that is because everything was already discussed and hashed out within the first twenty pages. It is a very shallow codex that has no combos because it gives no CPs, psychic powers that suck, overpriced units, and of course there are the occasional invaders who pop in and try to explain how GK are good and we just don't have the IQ to understand; that it is us as players who cause GK to fail.

Basically.

GK's role in this game was supplanted by Custodes. Because they do literally everything better than GK. More shooty, more mobile, more punch in assault, better stratagems, wound rerolls, FLY, better invulns, better toughness, better strength, etc. For essentially the same cost.

And if you were bringing 3x GMNDK, now you can just bring Imperial Knights next to your Guard. Or just wise the hell up and bring Custodes.

I always laugh when people talk about how buffs to GK would step on Custodes toes. Custodes trampled GK into dust when they were released. The overlap already exists.

This is why I would improve the GK psychic phase. It's what makes them unique. The best way (imho) to do this is with expanded sets of psychic powers, and vastly improved sanctic powers. I would also completely change stratagems and traits. Psybolt ammo should be free in the same way Deathwatch get free insanely stronger way better ammunition for absolute 0 cost.

Yeah. They 100% need to follow the Eldar/Thousand Sons shtick where you have a "powers the little guys get" and a "powers the heroes get" thing. I would probably make Psybolts a psychic power in the "little guys" power list, and make it -1 AP and D3 damage instead of 1 or D6 instead of D3, to give their squads a way to dakka down vehicles.

Bare minimum they need 12 powers, and all characters should have unlimited full smite. Possibly even give Librarians access to the Librarius discipline as well, to make them equivalent to Tsons where they "technically" have 18 but really one is highly limited in what models get it. Also, gives you a reason to take a librarian over, say, a Grandmaster or Brother-captain.

Those are all solid ideas.

I still maintain that the Psybolt ammo should be a permanent upgrade. Or go with Strength 5 grey knights stormbolters that ignore invuln saves.

 Marmatag wrote:
Those are all solid ideas.

I still maintain that the Psybolt ammo should be a permanent upgrade. Or go with Strength 5 grey knights stormbolters that ignore invuln saves.

I think they should make it like Inferno Bolts (but better). A stratagem used at the start of the game per unit.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Those are all solid ideas.

I still maintain that the Psybolt ammo should be a permanent upgrade. Or go with Strength 5 grey knights stormbolters that ignore invuln saves.

I think they should make it like Inferno Bolts (but better). A stratagem used at the start of the game per unit.

GK are already starved for CP. Deathwatch having special issue ammo didn't break the game. Grey Knights can have it, too.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Those are all solid ideas.

I still maintain that the Psybolt ammo should be a permanent upgrade. Or go with Strength 5 grey knights stormbolters that ignore invuln saves.

I think they should make it like Inferno Bolts (but better). A stratagem used at the start of the game per unit.

GK are already starved for CP. Deathwatch having special issue ammo didn't break the game. Grey Knights can have it, too.

Could always just make the Psibolt ammo a 0 CP stratagem as well. That way they don't have to deal with adding a universal rule or stepping on deathwatches toes with the special issue rule. It also would present an interesting and flexible tactical choice, since you would be able to apply the stratagem for free but only on 1 unit per turn, It would also be something that could be tossed into a FAQ as a beta rule easily

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
GW relied on Frontline Gaming to playtest to new rules and codex.

This continues to be the single biggest source of problems in 8th.

ValentineGames wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

This whole "must disagree with any statement of any possible positive of space marine models" religion you guys follow is fairly bizarre.

We aren't the ones trying to defend Grey Knights, the literal worst codex of the game.

Codex Sisters of Battle is better than a codex where you add 1 or 2 squads to an existing army?...
I doubt that very much.

1. Sisters are Index until the end of the year or beginning of next year
2. Yeah I will say Index Sisters are better than Codex Grey Knights. Absolutely.

Well index sisters are actually very, very good.

Index orks are also flatly superior to GK, as an example of an army that just hasn't kept up with the meta, but still better than GK.

If GK had permanent strength 5, ap-1 bolters across all their guns, they would still be worse than deathwatch wounding everything on 2s with rerolling 1s, or any other special ammo & tactics that they can freely change. And deathwatch are not even close to top tier.

Seriously. You could transplant the special ammo rules from deathwatch into GK and deathwatch would still be way better than GK, because kill teams are actually solid and they have a wider model range.

GK are in a huge hole, the fact that they have to burn a colossal 2 cp to get a tiny piece of what deathwatch has by default it is BONKERS.

 Marmatag wrote:

Index orks are also flatly superior to GK, as an example of an army that just hasn't kept up with the meta, but still better than GK.

Orks are one of the best armies in the game. Don't sleep on Orks.

Just because Frontline's bias doesn't make missions for them, GW did.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Karol if you want to know why there isn't anything in the GK Tactica thread, that is because everything was already discussed and hashed out within the first twenty pages. It is a very shallow codex that has no combos because it gives no CPs, psychic powers that suck, overpriced units, and of course there are the occasional invaders who pop in and try to explain how GK are good and we just don't have the IQ to understand; that it is us as players who cause GK to fail.

Basically.

GK's role in this game was supplanted by Custodes. Because they do literally everything better than GK. More shooty, more mobile, more punch in assault, better stratagems, wound rerolls, FLY, better invulns, better toughness, better strength, etc. For essentially the same cost.

And if you were bringing 3x GMNDK, now you can just bring Imperial Knights next to your Guard. Or just wise the hell up and bring Custodes.

I always laugh when people talk about how buffs to GK would step on Custodes toes. Custodes trampled GK into dust when they were released. The overlap already exists.

This is why I would improve the GK psychic phase. It's what makes them unique. The best way (imho) to do this is with expanded sets of psychic powers, and vastly improved sanctic powers. I would also completely change stratagems and traits. Psybolt ammo should be free in the same way Deathwatch get free insanely stronger way better ammunition for absolute 0 cost.

GKs role was only supplanted by the people who insist GKs role is marching 2+ armored troops around and smacking things with their swords. If thats GKs niche they need a redesign anyway. they're psykic deamon hunters and GW should work around that. the problem with GKs isn't custodes, it's that GK's pyskic abilities are well.. CRAP.

the_scotsman wrote:

2) Psychic powers being bad because the units you have to buff are bad. NOT because the powers themselves are bad. Hammerhand is the same effect as the BA chapter tactic, and half of Veterans of the Long War, considered to be one of the best stratagems in the game. +1 to wound rolls is extremely good - or more accurately, is extremely good on good units. As previously discussed, deep strike can be reliable for Grey Knights with the reroll trait - 74% chance to get in is the same odds as an ork unit using Da Jump or a BA unit using the 3d6 charge stratagem.

47% to make a successful charge after ds if you re-roll failed charges.

BrianDavion 759852 wrote:

GKs role was only supplanted by the people who insist GKs role is marching 2+ armored troops around and smacking things with their swords. If thats GKs niche they need a redesign anyway. they're psykic deamon hunters and GW should work around that. the problem with GKs isn't custodes, it's that GK's pyskic abilities are well.. CRAP.

Well if melee wasn't or isn't suppose to be a GK thing, and it is possible. Then the other thing they could do, not saying they are doing it good right now. Is mass bolter fire. And for that GW made codex deathwatch, with special ammo being unit rules and not CP costing stratagems, more resiliance and better special weapons.

No idea what counts as the imperial psychic army right now, but what ever it is, it has to be better then the GK psychic phase, because that is really bad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

This whole "must disagree with any statement of any possible positive of space marine models" religion you guys follow is fairly bizarre.

We aren't the ones trying to defend Grey Knights, the literal worst codex of the game.

Codex Sisters of Battle is better than a codex where you add 1 or 2 squads to an existing army?...
I doubt that very much.

1. Sisters are Index until the end of the year or beginning of next year
2. Yeah I will say Index Sisters are better than Codex Grey Knights. Absolutely.

No. I said codex. Not index.
The point being at least they have one

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Index orks are also flatly superior to GK, as an example of an army that just hasn't kept up with the meta, but still better than GK.

Orks are one of the best armies in the game. Don't sleep on Orks.

They do seem to win ALLOT of games despite all the moaning about them

 Marmatag wrote:
Those are all solid ideas.

I still maintain that the Psybolt ammo should be a permanent upgrade. Or go with Strength 5 grey knights stormbolters that ignore invuln saves.

The latter would be a terrible idea. Vs harlequins, a harlequin player may as well just pack up his army and say "good game" before a single die is rolled.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Those are all solid ideas.

I still maintain that the Psybolt ammo should be a permanent upgrade. Or go with Strength 5 grey knights stormbolters that ignore invuln saves.

The latter would be a terrible idea. Vs harlequins, a harlequin player may as well just pack up his army and say "good game" before a single die is rolled.

Yeah I think it would be pretty strong. but I do like the "anti daemon" fluff of working with invulnerable saves, and it has the advantage of working against most armies. Rather than straight up ignore them I would make the AP from psibolt ammo apply to invulnerable saves as well.

Flamephoenix182 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Those are all solid ideas.

I still maintain that the Psybolt ammo should be a permanent upgrade. Or go with Strength 5 grey knights stormbolters that ignore invuln saves.

The latter would be a terrible idea. Vs harlequins, a harlequin player may as well just pack up his army and say "good game" before a single die is rolled.

Yeah I think it would be pretty strong. but I do like the "anti daemon" fluff of working with invulnerable saves, and it has the advantage of working against most armies. Rather than straight up ignore them I would make the AP from psibolt ammo apply to invulnerable saves as well.

Or, you know. Have their schtick be related to mortal wounds from the psychic phase, which ignore invuln saves and would thus provide that counter against daemons without making the grey knights yet again into "totally hoses some thing that works similar like daemons, but sucks against anything else so we have to choose between making it worthless against everything else, or super broken auto-win against daemons to compensate."

BrianDavion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Karol if you want to know why there isn't anything in the GK Tactica thread, that is because everything was already discussed and hashed out within the first twenty pages. It is a very shallow codex that has no combos because it gives no CPs, psychic powers that suck, overpriced units, and of course there are the occasional invaders who pop in and try to explain how GK are good and we just don't have the IQ to understand; that it is us as players who cause GK to fail.

Basically.

GK's role in this game was supplanted by Custodes. Because they do literally everything better than GK. More shooty, more mobile, more punch in assault, better stratagems, wound rerolls, FLY, better invulns, better toughness, better strength, etc. For essentially the same cost.

And if you were bringing 3x GMNDK, now you can just bring Imperial Knights next to your Guard. Or just wise the hell up and bring Custodes.

I always laugh when people talk about how buffs to GK would step on Custodes toes. Custodes trampled GK into dust when they were released. The overlap already exists.

This is why I would improve the GK psychic phase. It's what makes them unique. The best way (imho) to do this is with expanded sets of psychic powers, and vastly improved sanctic powers. I would also completely change stratagems and traits. Psybolt ammo should be free in the same way Deathwatch get free insanely stronger way better ammunition for absolute 0 cost.

GKs role was only supplanted by the people who insist GKs role is marching 2+ armored troops around and smacking things with their swords. If thats GKs niche they need a redesign anyway. they're psykic deamon hunters and GW should work around that. the problem with GKs isn't custodes, it's that GK's pyskic abilities are well.. CRAP.

Are you serious, look at Paladins. You're paying for wounds, saves, and melee attacks. Further everything has a force weapon. Do you honestly think that GW didn't intend for GK to ever use those force weapons?

ValentineGames wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

This whole "must disagree with any statement of any possible positive of space marine models" religion you guys follow is fairly bizarre.

We aren't the ones trying to defend Grey Knights, the literal worst codex of the game.

Codex Sisters of Battle is better than a codex where you add 1 or 2 squads to an existing army?...
I doubt that very much.

1. Sisters are Index until the end of the year or beginning of next year
2. Yeah I will say Index Sisters are better than Codex Grey Knights. Absolutely.

No. I said codex. Not index.
The point being at least they have one

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Index orks are also flatly superior to GK, as an example of an army that just hasn't kept up with the meta, but still better than GK.

Orks are one of the best armies in the game. Don't sleep on Orks.

They do seem to win ALLOT of games despite all the moaning about them

I haven't the slightest clue what the point of your post is then. Grey Knights at least have a codex? And?

the_scotsman wrote:

Flamephoenix182 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Those are all solid ideas.

I still maintain that the Psybolt ammo should be a permanent upgrade. Or go with Strength 5 grey knights stormbolters that ignore invuln saves.

The latter would be a terrible idea. Vs harlequins, a harlequin player may as well just pack up his army and say "good game" before a single die is rolled.

Yeah I think it would be pretty strong. but I do like the "anti daemon" fluff of working with invulnerable saves, and it has the advantage of working against most armies. Rather than straight up ignore them I would make the AP from psibolt ammo apply to invulnerable saves as well.

Or, you know. Have their schtick be related to mortal wounds from the psychic phase, which ignore invuln saves and would thus provide that counter against daemons without making the grey knights yet again into "totally hoses some thing that works similar like daemons, but sucks against anything else so we have to choose between making it worthless against everything else, or super broken auto-win against daemons to compensate."

Invulnerable saves are pretty ubiquitous in this edition, so having AP apply against it would be pretty useful... but really there are a ton of ways GW could fix greyknights, and either direction would go well. I also would prefer to go the mortal wounds/expanded psyker phase route but I could see GW going a different way to differentiate them more from thousand sons

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

This whole "must disagree with any statement of any possible positive of space marine models" religion you guys follow is fairly bizarre.

We aren't the ones trying to defend Grey Knights, the literal worst codex of the game.

Codex Sisters of Battle is better than a codex where you add 1 or 2 squads to an existing army?...
I doubt that very much.

1. Sisters are Index until the end of the year or beginning of next year
2. Yeah I will say Index Sisters are better than Codex Grey Knights. Absolutely.

No. I said codex. Not index.
The point being at least they have one

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Index orks are also flatly superior to GK, as an example of an army that just hasn't kept up with the meta, but still better than GK.

Orks are one of the best armies in the game. Don't sleep on Orks.

They do seem to win ALLOT of games despite all the moaning about them

I haven't the slightest clue what the point of your post is then. Grey Knights at least have a codex? And?

Yes I must admit i am confused by this line of reasoning as well.

In truth if GK were still on the index they would be better than they are now.

You could bring all Librarians and a Brother Captain to have smite casting on 5 with no penalty, but at 36" with D3/D6 damage (because librarians didn't have Rites of Banishment prior to the Codex). Thus, they'd have a viable build, centered around 2++ (3++ vs shooting) character spam spitting out smites that cannot be denied. As long as you didn't run into a Culexus you'd be set.

Could still bring the mandatory imperial guard, to screen them if you wanted, and have mortars/artillery.

Librarians having Rite Of Banishment is literally the biggest slap in the face compared to anything else wrong in the codex.

Yeah, that one is just flat absurd.

Next in line is how bad Kaldor Draigo and Grand Master Voldus are for their points.

Really all GK HQs are bad, except the GMNDK which is very clearly overcosted given the power creep of 8th so far.