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Table wrote:
For those whom wont play vs forgeworld I ask the following. Would you find it to be acceptable if the forgeworld player agreed to remove his units but also asked you to remove units he disliked as well? Because that is exactly what is going on.

Forgeworld is official. It is accepted as 40k legal as long as it has a 40k unit entry. Forgeworld is owned by GW. Forgeworld models are produced to be used in either 30k or 40k games. Forgeworld is 100% legal from a RAW perspective. As long as you know this and accept that a forgeworld player can ask you to remove units in kind I don't see this as a problem.

If you do not want to remove units and still expect the FW player to do so then its best to be truthful with yourself and your perspective opponent and just say that you think your army cant handle FW units. Because once more, FW models are 100% legal RAW. Its as valid as a land raider.


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Danny slag wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
There are a handful of things currently that could be considered strong from forgeworld. Most core GW units are better than what FW produces. The few that are strong are generally with armies that aren't all that hot in their own right. Space Marine Leviathan Dreads, CSM Fire Raptors. Anyone who complains about FW being overpowered then plops down 30 dark reapers with 3 Black heart ravagers is as disingenuous as it gets.

But what's stronger is insanely stronger.

All you have to do to answer this question is look at the WAAC tournament scene and see everyone spam the gak out of broken forgeworld models.

So a CSM player who includes drop pods and fire raptors is trying to spam to win a game? Its more like they are trying to patch a HUGE hole that their GW codex has left. CSM have both drop pods and proper flyers in the lore. However the codex provides none of these options. The Heldrake is no longer a true flyer as it has neither supersonic or the -1 to be hit.

Pretty much all the arguments against FW boil down to two reasons

1) FW stuff was considered overpowered in previous editions

2)People are poor.

Both are really bad excuses yet they get used frequently.

I don't have an issue with FW models, I have an issue with WAAC players and their bs.

I will play against anything if the person using it is not an arsehole.

I said maybe. Usually for a pick up game, sure. But I like to be told before the game.

Edit: and I just went and read the rest of this thread.
After seeing many of the posts here, I should probably change my answer to no. I'd rather not play against cultists.

I think this argument will never die, the anti FW crowd move the goal posts every time.

It’s not official!

So gw puts it in chapter approved

Ah ha! But only WAAC players use it!

Proven false time and again.

Ah ha! But they are OP

No more than anything else in 40k and GW main is worse.

The otherside of that is:

"I don't play forgeworld"

WHAT!!! HERE'S five reasons why you're a horrible person that I'll scream at you for 30 pages in every thread that even mentions forgeworld.

Who cares if someone you'll never meet doesn't want to play with an expansion set? You're literally not going to play them, and by screaming at them all you're making them do is dig in.

 Elbows wrote:
I said "Yes with an agreement ahead of time", but only because if you show up with a Titan, that's not a fun game.

Do you mean the titan that costs 2K points or the titans that cost way more than that?

If you're playing 4K+ games you should be used to titans showing up. If you're playing 2K or less then you don't need to worry about it.

 Formosa wrote:
I think this argument will never die, the anti FW crowd move the goal posts every time.

The simple truth is that there is variety on the opinion of if FW should be standard or expansion. Therefore the sensible approach is to, when dealing with a new person you don't know, to approach it as an expansion. Therefore you spend a few moments going "hey lets have a battle, are we including FW or not". You then both agree to include or not to include and go from either place.

The only ones that will get disgruntled are when you get a die-hard no and yes person together and neither one is willing to give in to the other. And honestly such situations are super rare. The pages and hours of arguing online is represented in the real world with a few moments of pre-game chatter that is typically amicable.

 Mmmpi wrote:
I said maybe. Usually for a pick up game, sure. But I like to be told before the game.

Edit: and I just went and read the rest of this thread.
After seeing many of the posts here, I should probably change my answer to no. I'd rather not play against cultists.

But Cultists are in the Codex.

*ba-dum-tss*

No?

Nobody?

Fine.


Anyway, I think the issue with the "cultists" as you put it isn't actually that they're frothing at the mouth over people disliking FW, it's just the direction that these arguments tend to take.

Nowadays Forgeworld is an absolutely valid part of 40k. Nothing about it requires an opponent's permission, even if it might be considered good manners to let an opponent know before you bring Forgeworld units, in case they're the sort of player that still doesn't like them. Most of the arguments that people make against Forgeworld are therefore not rooted in game rules but in the fact that they personally don't like it. It might be that they had a bad experience playing against a Forgeworld model in the past, that they heard that FW was overpowered, that it required an opponent's permission in past editions, that they don't want to play against something they're not familiar with or simply that they can't afford FW and therefore don't want their opponent to have it either.

There's nothing wrong per se about refusing to play against FW for any of those reasons - it's your game and you can choose who and what you play against. But to the player who has saved, bought and painted an FW unit because they think it's cool, a lot of those reasons will sound unreasonable.

The same thing can be said of the arguments that people make against FW in these sorts of threads. They tend to base them on the OP/unbalanced side of things, or the status of FW in past editions. The pro-FW people are able to refute these arguments fairly easily - the main studio is also capable of unbalanced and OP awfulness, and the status of FW in past editions has no relevance nowadays, for example. In effect the pro-FW posters have the locigal and "technically correct" argument. The anti-FW people are approaching it from a more emotional position and aren't prepared to be swayed by the logical argument and tend to repeat their statements or switch to the other anti-FW arguments, any of which the pro-FW people believe they have already refuted. The pro-FW people start to become irritated because they've explained how and why FW is a valid part of the game yet the anti-FW crowd don't seem to get it. The anti-FW people become irritated because they don't know why the pro-FW people are attacking them for what is effectively a personal preference and they couldn't give two hoots whether it's a technically incorrect position.

The whole thing snowballs and you get "screaming" on both sides.

Much oddness abounds.

If I stick a Leman Russ Annihilator on the table i have to give my opponent the power to refuse my allowance to use it...as FW = overpowered.

But I can't then say anything about seeing Gulliman and 4 quad lascannon Predators in a salamander army...because reasons...

 Mmmpi wrote:
The otherside of that is:

"I don't play forgeworld"

WHAT!!! HERE'S five reasons why you're a horrible person that I'll scream at you for 30 pages in every thread that even mentions forgeworld.

Who cares if someone you'll never meet doesn't want to play with an expansion set? You're literally not going to play them, and by screaming at them all you're making them do is dig in.

There's nothing wrong with you not taking Forgeworld in your own army.

But saying "I don't play AGAINST Forgeword" - okay, so why? Surely there must be a reason why not. If you won't play against FW, then you surely shouldn't also want to play GW units either - what's the difference?

And that's where the problem comes in, because people rarely have well reasoned and rational beliefs as to why they shouldn't play against FW. Of course, you can't be forced into playing against it. You can't be forced into it. But your opponent reserves every right to call you out as narrow minded if you can't justify to them why you won't play against toy soldiers with a different name to the other toy soldiers.

ValentineGames wrote:
Much oddness abounds.

If I stick a Leman Russ Annihilator on the table i have to give my opponent the power to refuse my allowance to use it...as FW = overpowered.

But I can't then say anything about seeing Gulliman and 4 quad lascannon Predators in a salamander army...because reasons...

Well as your playing a 3k game 4 quad lascannon predators arn't exactlly game breaking. Also when a LR with BC does more damage per point than a quad lascannon predator while being 3 times more efficient at killing guardsmen I don't think anyone has any basis to claim spacemarine units are OP.

But yes complaining about FW is basically saying "Thats odd I won't allow you to play with it."

Also do people actually write their lists at the table for real?
Just not playing with 500 points less by removing my FW from my marine list isn't going to take 5 minutes assuming I have enough models to swap in.

Danny slag wrote:
But what's stronger is insanely stronger.

All you have to do to answer this question is look at the WAAC tournament scene and see everyone spam the gak out of broken forgeworld models.

Like what? Name me a single Forge World unit that is regularly spammed in tournament winning lists.

This isn't pre-Chapter Approved. The big offenders from early in the edition are all nigh-useless in tournament play now due to their excessive point increases. The last real hold-out was the Fire Raptor and even that got nerfed hard recently. Even though Leviathans are arguably the best Forge World unit for Space Marines, they're still pretty darned rare in tournaments. The same is true for quite a few other "power" units. Generally, what wins tournaments these days is good old plastic crack.

Hard to spam now anyway.

What I will say is my leman Russ conqueror out performs other Russes

My artemia hellhound out performs a regular hellhound

And my twin punisher vulture always does good work

None of them break the game though.

 Ezaviel wrote:
I don't have an issue with FW models, I have an issue with WAAC players and their bs.

I will play against anything if the person using it is not an arsehole.

Agreed, and well said.

 Mmmpi wrote:
The otherside of that is:

"I don't play forgeworld"

WHAT!!! HERE'S five reasons why you're a horrible person that I'll scream at you for 30 pages in every thread that even mentions forgeworld.

Who cares if someone you'll never meet doesn't want to play with an expansion set? You're literally not going to play them, and by screaming at them all you're making them do is dig in.

No the other side of that is asking why you won’t and expecting a rational answer, which so far not a single anti FW person has done, not one, in all these threads that pop up, so are you surprised that when you say “no” you get 10 people saying “why not”

NO, IT SHOULD BE ONE COMPANY SELLING THINGS UNDER ONE NAME. NOT CONFUSING PEOPLE WITH SOME SUBCOMPANY WITH DIFFERENT MATERIAL BULL CRAP


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BOYCOTT FW!

 Stormatious wrote:
NO, IT SHOULD BE ONE COMPANY SELLING THINGS UNDER ONE NAME. NOT CONFUSING PEOPLE WITH SOME SUBCOMPANY WITH DIFFERENT MATERIAL BULL CRAP


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BOYCOTT FW!

What’s with the caps lol


And it’s not even remotely confusing, I buy my battletech books from catalyst games and models from ral partha, easy peasy.

It is confusing, iv never seen a fw shop, and i cant even find nz online shops. But iv seen plenty of GW shops selling large seletions of many models but not ONE fw.


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caps lock*

 Stormatious wrote:
It is confusing, iv never seen a fw shop, and i cant even find nz online shops. But iv seen plenty of GW shops selling large seletions of many models but not ONE fw.


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caps lock*

The argument that "FW isn't valid because they have no store" is actually incorrect. There's a FW store in Nottingham Warhammer World. Sure, it's not practical for the majority of the world to get to, but then, at the same time, GW in general is impractical in Australasia due to shipping costs.

FW's absolute valid to get. Just buy it online.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:
It is confusing, iv never seen a fw shop, and i cant even find nz online shops. But iv seen plenty of GW shops selling large seletions of many models but not ONE fw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
caps lock*

The argument that "FW isn't valid because they have no store" is actually incorrect. There's a FW store in Nottingham Warhammer World. Sure, it's not practical for the majority of the world to get to, but then, at the same time, GW in general is impractical in Australasia due to shipping costs.

FW's absolute valid to get. Just buy it online.

?? I said NZ not australia, theres a gw shop near me.

 Stormatious wrote:


?? I said NZ not australia, theres a gw shop near me.

He said Australasia, not Australia, i.e. Aus & NZ. Grouped together in this instance because you have in common the fact that GW prices are absurd in your part of the world.

You won't ever see FW in a shop aside from at Warhammer World, that new citadel thing or whatever they're calling it in Texas and an FW stand at events. The production quantities are just too small to be able to supply it to stores. I don't think you can even order it into a GW store because if they made it available to their own stores then if I recall correctly, legally they would have to allow other stockists to order it in.

FW make low volume specialist kits. The people who want it will order it from the FW website. Non-Brits unfortunately have to get it shipped around the world and potentially pay import costs and duties, but that's just one of the downsides of buying FW. It's nice to live within easy visit distance of Warhammer World!

 Stormatious wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:
It is confusing, iv never seen a fw shop, and i cant even find nz online shops. But iv seen plenty of GW shops selling large seletions of many models but not ONE fw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
caps lock*

The argument that "FW isn't valid because they have no store" is actually incorrect. There's a FW store in Nottingham Warhammer World. Sure, it's not practical for the majority of the world to get to, but then, at the same time, GW in general is impractical in Australasia due to shipping costs.

FW's absolute valid to get. Just buy it online.

?? I said NZ not australia, theres a gw shop near me.

Australasia. That includes New Zealand.

 Mmmpi wrote:
The otherside of that is:

"I don't play forgeworld"

WHAT!!! HERE'S five reasons why you're a horrible person that I'll scream at you for 30 pages in every thread that even mentions forgeworld.

Who cares if someone you'll never meet doesn't want to play with an expansion set? You're literally not going to play them, and by screaming at them all you're making them do is dig in.

it is not a expansion set. it is 100% legal unit entries to the base game.

All of my armies are built with Forge World models because I think they're neat.

2nd Concordian? Stormhammers.
Arsenal World regiment? Malcadors
Slaanesh Daemons? Zarakynel

Saying "should always treat it like an expansion" is saying "your armies, Unit, don't get to play this game by default assumption"

thanks guys.

aslong as the player has the rules for the models whit them so i can read them before the game starts, i have no probs playing agasint FW.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
aslong as the player has the rules for the models whit them so i can read them before the game starts, i have no probs playing agasint FW.

Frankly, any opponent should have the rules for their units, FW or not.

Table wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
The otherside of that is:

"I don't play forgeworld"

WHAT!!! HERE'S five reasons why you're a horrible person that I'll scream at you for 30 pages in every thread that even mentions forgeworld.

Who cares if someone you'll never meet doesn't want to play with an expansion set? You're literally not going to play them, and by screaming at them all you're making them do is dig in.

it is not a expansion set. it is 100% legal unit entries to the base game.

Wait until he starts trying to argue that its a separate company again...

Haha, please tell me my Crassus is OP.
Tell me my Macharius with fewer shots than a Russ and not-updated Steel Behemoth is OP.
Tell me my Land Speeder Tempest that can’t hit a barn door and dies to a stiff breeze is OP.

“FW = BROKEN” died with the launch of 8th. People really oughtta get over it. Really.


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
aslong as the player has the rules for the models whit them so i can read them before the game starts, i have no probs playing agasint FW.

Frankly, any opponent should have the rules for their units, FW or not.

Yup.

Oh yeah. If you don't have rules, I'd rather not play against you.

But that's true of anything I don't know-if you bring Genestealer Cults against me without an Index, I won't play you because I don't know their rules.

Ice_can wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
Much oddness abounds.

If I stick a Leman Russ Annihilator on the table i have to give my opponent the power to refuse my allowance to use it...as FW = overpowered.

But I can't then say anything about seeing Gulliman and 4 quad lascannon Predators in a salamander army...because reasons...

Well as your playing a 3k game

Quickest way to completely dodge the point I guess...
(Who even has 12 hours to play a game that size in 8th?)

 Formosa wrote:
I buy my battletech books from catalyst games and models from ral partha, easy peasy.

INSANITY!

What next Black Library books sold in none black library stores?!?!?!