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Oh, for feth's sake. The guy says he plays in tournaments, he plays in tournaments.

Let it go. He can't prove it to you, and you can't prove he doesn't. Just because he has a different opinion, doesn't mean he doesn't play at tournaments.

@ Quickjager: Did you deliberately call him Prik G? Cause you could probably have chosen a different short-form...

Huh, now that was an autocorrect. Sorry bout that G.

So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?

(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)

So I hear Raven Guard Aggressors are kind of bonkers...

Bharring wrote:
So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?

(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)

Viable builds being locked to one subfaction or even worse, to one specific special character, is a failure in codex design. You're supposed to be able play various chapters with this book.

The Newman wrote:
So I hear Raven Guard Aggressors are kind of bonkers...

The other topics?

Yeah, RG aggressors are one of the few things that work. Hard counters to some units/armies, generally high firepower for the cost, consider that a single one shoots like 9 bolter shots, so more than 5 marines at 18", 1 less at <12", not counting double tapping. They provide volume of fire that these days is useful against all targets, because you either needs the shots to thin hordes, or needs the shots to go past invuln, armor, -1 to hit. RG can put them into double tap range turn 1 with their Stratagem Strike From the Shadow, and if you don't have turn 1 you can hide them somewhere. They are not universal though, against mobile armies they move too slowly to catch up and when not double tapping they lose too much useful firepower, so you'll end up with them never firing twice again after first turn. They can work as serviceable melee vehicle busters too if you get a turn 1 charge after the double tap, depends on how the enemy deployed.

I hope you get them some rerolls and you actually kill whatever you intend to kill with them immediatly because their resilience is pretty poor for the cost.


Still, I don't think that anybody can dismiss that the SM codex has some tricks here and there. Problem is that they are "the only way to play competitively" and "only work with a subfaction and are so much better that the other subfactions are worthless". So bad design overall.

Bharring wrote:
So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?

(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)

The problem with Ynnari and CWE to marine comparison is the CWE index and codex is competitive without Yannari. Yannari was the problem and got nerfed and will likely be rewritten if they get a codex. If Yvrani? Still buffed Aeldari models with SFD like it was first writen how much would the CWE codex had to suck to be balanced with her?

The Marine codex was done the otherway and made everything else weaker so they don't work without Bobby G, now if they had designed the codex to be competitive without Bobby G and give us Bobby G then an Bobby G list would have been broken.
But GW didn't realise or don't want to have to rewrite the codex's.

Bharring wrote:
So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?

(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)

Cat lady is pretty good still.
Thing is - CWE could alternatively just play aloitoc dark reapers and have indestructable reapers rather than shoot twice fragile reapers. All their factions can use fire and fade stratagem/ linked fire stratagem/ 4++ gardian save stratagem/ deep strike stratagem (EVEN VEHICLES CAN DO THIS!). CWE didn't use ynnari as a crutch - CWE has several builds that are strong without Ynnari.

Including -
flyers spam
spear spam
serpant spam

All effective strategies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?

(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)

The problem with Ynnari and CWE to marine comparison is the CWE index and codex is competitive without Yannari. Yannari was the problem and got nerfed and will likely be rewritten if they get a codex. If Yvrani? Still buffed Aeldari models with SFD like it was first writen how much would the CWE codex had to suck to be balanced with her?

The Marine codex was done the otherway and made everything else weaker so they don't work without Bobby G, now if they had designed the codex to be competitive without Bobby G and give us Bobby G then an Bobby G list would have been broken.
But GW didn't realise or don't want to have to rewrite the codex's.

I think you are giving GW too much credit here. They don't make connections like the ones you are implying. Ynnari was busted AF on their own without CWE - and they got nerfed. CWE was pretty weak in the index and got a massive power increase. Space marines was weak AF in the index and more or less got no power increase - several units got weaker - and the chapter traits do not affect vehcails while everyone elses do - it is a net power loss.

@ CaptainRichard: Yeah, no argument there.

"So *when* Ynnari *were* ..."
"... (Index)..."
"(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)"

What part of that was claiming CWE aren't good now?
Was it really not clear I was talking about *when* things *were* that way, specifically using the Index? I thought I explicitly stated that CWE being good was unquestionable once the codex was out.

If Index CWE players were taking the Alaitoc trait, they were cheating. If Index CWE players were using the 4++ stratagem on Guardians they were cheating. And in a spectacular way, since those rules *didn't exist yet*.

It gets really frustrating to claim $X, then see a couple posts prove $notX is wrong because of reasons $a, $b, and $c. Once or twice, sure. But nearly every post on DakkaDakka?

Then we have claims like:
"Ynnari was busted AF on their own without CWE"
Sure, take Ynnari mono. You have 3 models and 0 CP. Good luck with that. They *require* another faction to do just about anything (although that could be DE, Harlies, or Corsairs).

"Space marines was weak AF in the index and more or less got no power increase "
Marines got a huge power increase. Gman + Razorbacks was freaking scary to just about any army when the SM book came out. *And* most armies were still in the Index. You could argue they didn't get enough of a power increase, but they certainly got a large power increase.

"and the chapter traits do not affect vehcails while everyone elses do"
When SM came out, "Everybody else" was in Index. That's a valid complaint now, but was not true when it came out.

"the CWE index and codex is competitive without Yannari."
Was the CWE index top dog - or even anywhere near - before Ynnari? I didn't think so. I did a quick spotcheck on Blood of Kittens of all Sept. 2017 (pre-CWE codex) tournament placings, and not a single one of those lists was a non-Ynnari CWE list. They had some nasty tricks, but I don't believe they were top dog. You needed their G-man equivelent to place.

Once again (because saying it once per post isn't enough, it seems), I'm not saying CWE Codex isn't OP. I'm making specific claims in a lot of ways. And I'm being specific about not claiming that. So why point out something I've already said is true?

As good as CWE are, they can't turn me into road pizza as fast as the Drukhari. Which means more time for things to go wrong for CWE.

I can't even tell you how good marine strats are in a pitched battle, because I'm being turned into road pizza before I can get mileage out of them. People say they are awful, but the most I'm really going to say is that there are not enough defensive strats like even the simple on that the IG get. And the marines need it more than the IG. Salt in the wound.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?

(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)

Cat lady is pretty good still.
Thing is - CWE could alternatively just play aloitoc dark reapers and have indestructable reapers rather than shoot twice fragile reapers. All their factions can use fire and fade stratagem/ linked fire stratagem/ 4++ gardian save stratagem/ deep strike stratagem (EVEN VEHICLES CAN DO THIS!). CWE didn't use ynnari as a crutch - CWE has several builds that are strong without Ynnari.

Including -
flyers spam
spear spam
serpant spam

All effective strategies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?

(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)

The problem with Ynnari and CWE to marine comparison is the CWE index and codex is competitive without Yannari. Yannari was the problem and got nerfed and will likely be rewritten if they get a codex. If Yvrani? Still buffed Aeldari models with SFD like it was first writen how much would the CWE codex had to suck to be balanced with her?

The Marine codex was done the otherway and made everything else weaker so they don't work without Bobby G, now if they had designed the codex to be competitive without Bobby G and give us Bobby G then an Bobby G list would have been broken.
But GW didn't realise or don't want to have to rewrite the codex's.

I think you are giving GW too much credit here. They don't make connections like the ones you are implying. Ynnari was busted AF on their own without CWE - and they got nerfed. CWE was pretty weak in the index and got a massive power increase. Space marines was weak AF in the index and more or less got no power increase - several units got weaker - and the chapter traits do not affect vehcails while everyone elses do - it is a net power loss.

You must not have been around much in the index days, eh? SM were doing awesomely for the first half or so of 8th. That's a long road from " Space marines was weak AF in the index "

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?

(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)

Cat lady is pretty good still.
Thing is - CWE could alternatively just play aloitoc dark reapers and have indestructable reapers rather than shoot twice fragile reapers. All their factions can use fire and fade stratagem/ linked fire stratagem/ 4++ gardian save stratagem/ deep strike stratagem (EVEN VEHICLES CAN DO THIS!). CWE didn't use ynnari as a crutch - CWE has several builds that are strong without Ynnari.

Including -
flyers spam
spear spam
serpant spam

All effective strategies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?

(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)

The problem with Ynnari and CWE to marine comparison is the CWE index and codex is competitive without Yannari. Yannari was the problem and got nerfed and will likely be rewritten if they get a codex. If Yvrani? Still buffed Aeldari models with SFD like it was first writen how much would the CWE codex had to suck to be balanced with her?

The Marine codex was done the otherway and made everything else weaker so they don't work without Bobby G, now if they had designed the codex to be competitive without Bobby G and give us Bobby G then an Bobby G list would have been broken.
But GW didn't realise or don't want to have to rewrite the codex's.

I think you are giving GW too much credit here. They don't make connections like the ones you are implying. Ynnari was busted AF on their own without CWE - and they got nerfed. CWE was pretty weak in the index and got a massive power increase. Space marines was weak AF in the index and more or less got no power increase - several units got weaker - and the chapter traits do not affect vehcails while everyone elses do - it is a net power loss.

You must not have been around much in the index days, eh? SM were doing awesomely for the first half or so of 8th. That's a long road from " Space marines was weak AF in the index "

You mean before Roboute and Razorbacks got hit, right?

Roboute and Razorbacks didn't get hit until CA, and the discussion quoted was talking about pre-CWE Codex (which was just before CA) - so yeah.

Just like marines were the gak in 5th for like... 2 months until more codices dropped lol.

IGNORE is your friend.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?

(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)

Cat lady is pretty good still.
Thing is - CWE could alternatively just play aloitoc dark reapers and have indestructable reapers rather than shoot twice fragile reapers. All their factions can use fire and fade stratagem/ linked fire stratagem/ 4++ gardian save stratagem/ deep strike stratagem (EVEN VEHICLES CAN DO THIS!). CWE didn't use ynnari as a crutch - CWE has several builds that are strong without Ynnari.

Including -
flyers spam
spear spam
serpant spam

All effective strategies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?

(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)

The problem with Ynnari and CWE to marine comparison is the CWE index and codex is competitive without Yannari. Yannari was the problem and got nerfed and will likely be rewritten if they get a codex. If Yvrani? Still buffed Aeldari models with SFD like it was first writen how much would the CWE codex had to suck to be balanced with her?

The Marine codex was done the otherway and made everything else weaker so they don't work without Bobby G, now if they had designed the codex to be competitive without Bobby G and give us Bobby G then an Bobby G list would have been broken.
But GW didn't realise or don't want to have to rewrite the codex's.

I think you are giving GW too much credit here. They don't make connections like the ones you are implying. Ynnari was busted AF on their own without CWE - and they got nerfed. CWE was pretty weak in the index and got a massive power increase. Space marines was weak AF in the index and more or less got no power increase - several units got weaker - and the chapter traits do not affect vehcails while everyone elses do - it is a net power loss.

You must not have been around much in the index days, eh? SM were doing awesomely for the first half or so of 8th. That's a long road from " Space marines was weak AF in the index "

No I was around. Seem to remember IG winning everything and they got buffed in their codex. LOL. Index marines is basically the same thing as codex marines minus razors are like 15 points more expensive and Gman went up 40 points. In other words - space marines were weak AF in the index they are just a little weaker now. Also storm ravens were a lot cheaper in index. 5 Storm raven armies...yeah...space marines let me tell yeah.

 Xenomancers wrote:

No I was around. Seem to remember IG winning everything and they got buffed in their codex. LOL. Index marines is basically the same thing as codex marines minus razors are like 15 points more expensive and Gman went up 40 points. In other words - space marines were weak AF in the index they are just a little weaker now. Also storm ravens were a lot cheaper in index. 5 Storm raven armies...yeah...space marines let me tell yeah.

Looks like someone's forgotten about the advantage of being one of the only armies with Stratagems, Relics, Faction Traits and sane point costs.

If Space Marines were "weak AF", why were they chosen by so many tourny placers/winners?

Unless, by "weak AF" you mean "There is reasonable doubt that they, alone, are the most powerful army in the game."

IG was at their level, until CA. Ynnari, too. CWE was way below them for about the first half of the edition (until November).

They were, at worst, top-3 up until CA.

Do you even remember the "SM worst Army" or "army ranking" threads from those days? SM was only the worst when you only compared it to IG/CWE up until CA came out. It was only "worst" or "weak" when you ignored all but the top two armies.

It doesn't help Marines right now if they were good yesterday, let alone a year ago.

But the belief that where they were at 6-12 months ago was "trash" is a problem. If we can't see when and how they *weren't* trash, it's nearly impossible to figure out if they're trash, by how much, and what needs to change to make them non-trash.

Besides, this line of discussion came from "even if Gman wins tournies, SM is trash", which was contrasted with CWE Index being considered OP because of one model *in another book* that was OP at the time. Once again, it speaks to what it means to be "trash".

I'd argue that Gman isn't quite good enough to make SM top tier now. But if "trash" means anything but undisputed #1, it's a very different discussion than "trash" meaning can't hold its own against more than a couple other books.

Yeah. There's two arguments here.

One side is all "Marines are bad!"
And the other side is "yes, but here are some misconceptions you should fix so we can proceed with addressing the problem rationally!"

And then the first side is all "NO WE ARE RIGHT 100%" and then a fight starts.

At one point 6 Storm Ravens was a good list. Did that make marines good, and balanced?

Having a viable build for a moment doesn't make an army balanced and good.

Where have Tyranids been since the Tyrant nerf? Still a decent army but gone from competitive tables.

BA have two units that are usable atm. That's supposed to get me excited to play?

What about IG that don't like Guardsmen? Wait, no, sorry. Bad example.

DE that don't like Kabs in boats or Covens or such? Wait, no, that's not a problem either.

CWE that don't like Aspects or Psykers or Guardians or jetbikes or Serpents? Wait, no, that's good too now.

There are some losers in those 'Dex (Windrider fans and Wraith fans aren't doing so hot, for instance), but we're seeing a *lot* more variety in top armies than we have in the past. This is great.

SM have had this problem in 8th even when they were good. Agree. Other factions have had it previously. It sucks, and should always be corrected.

Internal balance is critical, but unfortunately is orthoganal - in some ways even partially opposed to - to external balance.

 Crimson wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?

(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)

Viable builds being locked to one subfaction or even worse, to one specific special character, is a failure in codex design. You're supposed to be able play various chapters with this book.

So, lets see how those non-alaitoc eldar lists are doing at tournaments.

*crickets*

All of those codices have more than two usable units.

I've seen three brutal Drukhari archetypes that use 10+ units between the three.

I can't field more than skeleton battalion of BA w/o gimping myself.

the_scotsman wrote:


So, lets see how those non-alaitoc eldar lists are doing at tournaments.

Though there the choice at least is between 'pretty damn good' and 'brokenly OP'. But yeah, it is still a problem. I knew this would happen when they announced the subfaction rules. GW can't make them balanced, and as there is no associated point cost, the balance cannot be achieved that way either. But as I just said in another thread, armywide -1 to hit was a terrible idea, and if they would just get rid of those it would fix a lot of balance issue.

For marines they need to fix both RGs, Guilliman and Raven Guard, and then adjust the point costs so that marines can be competitive without these crutches.

Getting rid of the army-wide -1tohit traits would certainly help tone down CWE. But would it do much about IG/Custards/DE/etc? An improvement, but I think limited.

Most of the CWE traits are the same as SM traits. The difference is (1) SM traits don't affect vehicles (yes, everyone agrees that's weak), and (2) CWE is better off without traits than SM.

As long as the RG trait is so good while the others are so meh, the only way to balance non-RG without making RG OP is with special characters... like Big G. But that's terrible balance, is hard to point correctly, and only fixes the subfaction(s) that get him/them.

The non-Alaitoc CWE traits aren't exactly broken. Better than SM traits (because vehicles), but not better than other subfaction traits.

Martel,
"All of those codices have more than two usable units. "
That was my point.

In the past. The top book would have 1-2 super awesome OP choices, and everyone would spam them. Now, there are still some choices better than others, but most of the top books can use a much wider array of choices than they could in past metas. CWE isn't "Codex DAVU" or "Codex ScatterBike". It is "Codex Alaitoc", but that still allows them to use several different units in each of the slots available (aside from LoW). This is an improvement over previous iterations of most 'Dexes.

I wish SM had similar balance.

As i've mentioned before, the whole thing is drug down by a single statline.