So, what are Marines good for?

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**Xenomancers**

Yeah - nullzone is not viable really. Deathhex on the other hand is amazing.

**Bharring**

I don't think there's any real debate about whether Doom is really good, or whether Null Zone aint.

The point was a technical one. Specific to the actual scaling across points. The only thing that might sound argumentative is that most people assume "scales exponentially" means impactful. It does not. There is a point that it would become more impactful than less-than-exponential growth items would, but it can be arbitrarily high.

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This is why SM threads never end. Even pointing out technical scales and definitions, where no argument is made, is taken as providing a crazy claim that was never made.

**Martel732**

Why point that out, then?

It sure sounds like you are talking up a gak psychic power.

**Xenomancers**

6" range is pathetic man. Can't be used to turn 1 takes away most of it's potential scaling. Having to sacrifice a unit with a low probability of success to pull it off takes away the rest.

I would 100% trade it for death hex in an instant.

**Primark G**

Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Primark G wrote:
Can't wait to see what the haters have to say about this GT win.

The list literally went out of its way to not take any traditional Space Marine units other than its bare minimum cheapest possible troops tax and 2 HQs because Space Marines are so bad.

And you never see any CSM in CSM armies either.

**Bharring**

"Why point that out, then?

It sure sounds like you are talking up a gak psychic power."

Because there was a very incorrect claim. Doom (while being one of the best powers in the game) is *not* an aura. I wanted to correct that.

Also, the nature of scaling was being used very incorrectly. I figured it would be useful to correct that.

If I started saying Tac Marines were S/T 5 2+, and seemed to actually believe that, wouldn't you point out that they aren't?

Not every statement is either for/against whatever your cause du jour is. Many statements are made simply to clarify, specify, or further illuminate things so that arguments can be made with more solid grounding.

**Primark G**

Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - nullzone is not viable really. Deathhex on the other hand is amazing.

Jump pack anyone? But seriously SM tend to run gun lines... armies like Nidz and Chaos will be up in your grill real quick... 6" range is more than enough versus these armies.

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Sunny Side Up wrote:
Primark G wrote:

It is just another unit for most armies - it is not more advantageous for SM armies.

Not taking away from the win, but of course any buff/aura/bubble/things like Doom etc... grow somewhat exponentially with higher points, not linear. More stuff that can tap into an aura effect that has a static point value attached to it means you get more "value" out of it without having to pay extra points for the aura effect (e.g. the 400 for Guilliman) in the first place.

Guilliman with one guy next to him with a Lascannon in a 500 point game is not terribly efficient. You're probably better of dropping Guilliman and replacing it with 400 points of Lascannons (or other shooty stuff).

Guilliman with 500 guys with Lascannons next to him in a 5000 point game is every Guilliman-point worth in gold and Guilliman himself probably pulling the "worth" of another 2000-3000 points worth of firepower compared to a non-re-roll list.

Same reason that fixed-CP cost stratagems or psychic powers aren't well suited to a "competitive" game. Tide of Traitors on 40 Cultists is 4-times as efficient as Tide of Traitors on 10 Cultists. For a truly competitive tournament game, it would need to cost 4 times the resources (e.g. CP in this latter case, variable point costs depending on how many units benefit from it in the case of re-roll characters, etc.. ).

I think you are making too much of a big deal out of 200 points. Other armies have buff auras too... if the SM army goes second that 200 point unit could be dead just like that too.

**Xenomancers**

Primark G wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - nullzone is not viable really. Deathhex on the other hand is amazing.

Jump pack anyone? But seriously SM tend to run gun lines... armies like Nidz and Chaos will be up in your grill real quick... 6" range is more than enough versus these armies.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Primark G wrote:

It is just another unit for most armies - it is not more advantageous for SM armies.

Not taking away from the win, but of course any buff/aura/bubble/things like Doom etc... grow somewhat exponentially with higher points, not linear. More stuff that can tap into an aura effect that has a static point value attached to it means you get more "value" out of it without having to pay extra points for the aura effect (e.g. the 400 for Guilliman) in the first place.

Guilliman with one guy next to him with a Lascannon in a 500 point game is not terribly efficient. You're probably better of dropping Guilliman and replacing it with 400 points of Lascannons (or other shooty stuff).

Guilliman with 500 guys with Lascannons next to him in a 5000 point game is every Guilliman-point worth in gold and Guilliman himself probably pulling the "worth" of another 2000-3000 points worth of firepower compared to a non-re-roll list.

Same reason that fixed-CP cost stratagems or psychic powers aren't well suited to a "competitive" game. Tide of Traitors on 40 Cultists is 4-times as efficient as Tide of Traitors on 10 Cultists. For a truly competitive tournament game, it would need to cost 4 times the resources (e.g. CP in this latter case, variable point costs depending on how many units benefit from it in the case of re-roll characters, etc.. ).

I think you are making too much of a big deal out of 200 points. Other armies have buff auras too... if the SM army goes second that 200 point unit could be dead just like that too.

If you are counting on opponents to just walk into your kill box - this says a lot about the players you play against.

**Insectum7**

Raw SM gunline can work pretty well up to a point, but at that point the scales seem to shift and shock-assaults and hard alphas can pull it apart again. Risky build, imo.

**Median Trace**

So now we are using one data point to “prove” that Ultram... I mean Space Marines are totally fine?

**Insectum7**

Doesn't matter. The whole setup is sometimes akin to an Eldar player saying the Eldar codex is broken because Dire Avengers lose to Guardsmen in a point for point, static firefight.

**Bharring**

No. Just as an example that the Space Marine codex is not autolose in every case.

Because one counterexample disproves exteremist claims, but doesn't move the needle much on more sophisticated models.

I think this thread has moved on to arguing either that Null Zone isn't better than Doom, or that they didn't claim that Null Zone is better than doom. Oddly enough, not much arguing that either of those claims is wrong, but it's already been a page of that crap.

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(
JCD -
Sorry, your comments got lost in the noise.
Certainly, Doom does scale somewhat based on firepower. In a 200pt game, Doom doesn't have as much impact because there isn't as much to hit the target with, compared to a 5kpt game.

I'd argue it caps out fairly quickly, though, because shooting tends to be very efficient in this game. Less so vs a Knight list than an MSU list, of course, though.

The exact caps are certainly debateable. But there is some scaling there, up to a soft cap. However, that's polynomial at best.)

**Martel732**

No, they're not autolose. But relying on the bobby G gimmick is lame beyond words.

**Primark G**

Martel732 wrote:
No, they're not autolose. But relying on the bobby G gimmick is lame beyond words.

This is one of the very times I agree with you but a win is still a win.

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Xenomancers wrote:
Primark G wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - nullzone is not viable really. Deathhex on the other hand is amazing.

Jump pack anyone? But seriously SM tend to run gun lines... armies like Nidz and Chaos will be up in your grill real quick... 6" range is more than enough versus these armies.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Primark G wrote:

It is just another unit for most armies - it is not more advantageous for SM armies.

Not taking away from the win, but of course any buff/aura/bubble/things like Doom etc... grow somewhat exponentially with higher points, not linear. More stuff that can tap into an aura effect that has a static point value attached to it means you get more "value" out of it without having to pay extra points for the aura effect (e.g. the 400 for Guilliman) in the first place.

Guilliman with one guy next to him with a Lascannon in a 500 point game is not terribly efficient. You're probably better of dropping Guilliman and replacing it with 400 points of Lascannons (or other shooty stuff).

Guilliman with 500 guys with Lascannons next to him in a 5000 point game is every Guilliman-point worth in gold and Guilliman himself probably pulling the "worth" of another 2000-3000 points worth of firepower compared to a non-re-roll list.

Same reason that fixed-CP cost stratagems or psychic powers aren't well suited to a "competitive" game. Tide of Traitors on 40 Cultists is 4-times as efficient as Tide of Traitors on 10 Cultists. For a truly competitive tournament game, it would need to cost 4 times the resources (e.g. CP in this latter case, variable point costs depending on how many units benefit from it in the case of re-roll characters, etc.. ).

I think you are making too much of a big deal out of 200 points. Other armies have buff auras too... if the SM army goes second that 200 point unit could be dead just like that too.

If you are counting on opponents to just walk into your kill box - this says a lot about the players you play against.

Sometimes they really don't have a choice.

**Martel732**

Actually, multiple wins were necessary.

It's not impossible for me to imagine a line up of lists weak vs double repulsor/bobby G. They will get +1 to go first every time for sure. If people are building for Xenos, T8 3+ is not terrible.

It's in his quotes:

"I have strong wins against a death guard list, plague burst, and fidget spinners, two eldar/ deldar matchups,soft vehicles and mass foot troops. Any horde foot unit based lists would be a great match-up for this list."

BTW, lists like this is why I really like the errant as a single knight for my BA.

**Xenomancers**

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, multiple wins were necessary.

It's not impossible for me to imagine a line up of lists weak vs double repulsor/bobby G. They will get +1 to go first every time for sure. If people are building for Xenos, T8 3+ is not terrible.

It's in his quotes:

"I have strong wins against a death guard list, plague burst, and fidget spinners, two eldar/ deldar matchups,soft vehicles and mass foot troops. Any horde foot unit based lists would be a great match-up for this list."

BTW, lists like this is why I really like the errant as a single knight for my BA.

Why not a crusader? Or a Castellan? A Castellan kills 2 repulsors in 1 turn...it's discussing.

**Primark G**

You have always claimed DE is auto win versus the power armor.

**Martel732**

Primark G wrote:
You have always claimed DE is auto win versus the power armor.

That wasn't a power armor list, really. It was a mech list. I bet those hellblasters did nothing vs Eldar/De.

**Xenomancers**

Primark G wrote:
You have always claimed DE is auto win versus the power armor.

It really should be noted. Going second is an obstacle that any list has to overcome. Even DE. The thing is - Going second is much easier to win with DE than it is with space marines with Gman. So winning 5 games at a tournament is a lot easier for DE where winning 5 in a row for space marines is next to impossible. They should lose any game going second vs an optimized dark eldar list.

DE can deploy anywhere on the table...behind LOS blocking - scattered all over the place and they are still in possition to strike.

Space marine units have to deploy close to the front and mostly because they are slow and have a lot of short range fire power.

Gman and repulsors and storm raven with hellblasters and ancient banner is what I have been running all edition for my Ultras. It can win games if it goes first. It gets smashed if it goes second (the only chance in a game going second is going to be what I call Gman and Calgar beat down) as your whole army gets vaporized (usually after taking 6+ saves) these 2 somehow manage to kill 1000 points on their own...it's your only chance.

**Primark G**

Often it is advantageous to go second. I guess building a list that can weather an alpha strike is a lost skill.

"these 2 somehow manage to kill 1000 points on their own...it's your only chance."

Care to enlighten me how they do this ? Do they run around screaming boo?

Martel732 wrote:
Primark G wrote:
You have always claimed DE is auto win versus the power armor.

That wasn't a power armor list, really. It was a mech list. I bet those hellblasters did nothing vs Eldar/De.

Shift those goal posts.

**Martel732**

I'm not shifting anything. There is almost no power armor for them to target in this list. But what's there dies instantly to dissy cannons. The heavy lifting is done by the mech. It's pretty simple.

**Primark G**

When I said power armor I meant Space Marines as in a Space Marines army.

**Quickjager**

Look this goes back to what we all talked about like half a year ago, which was that Robute was the only thing keeping Space Marines afloat.

**Primark G**

Why not just put that into your signature so you do not have to keep repeating yourself?

**Quickjager**

Because I don't say it very much Prik (THAI KING) G. and it makes sense to say so in this situation because it was a very high point tournament.

Go on quote me.

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Seriously find a quote of me talking about the Ultramarine Primarch from the last 6 months.

lol welp gg autocorrect.

**Primark G**

Lol I am working... I seem to remember you saying it not so long ago though.

**Marmatag**

Primark G wrote:
Marmatag wrote:

Primark G wrote:
See how quick some are to dismiss a SM victory over trivial things that do not really matter.

Says the guy who has never played in a tournament and considers Guilliman a "crutch that real ultramarine players don't need."

Guilliman is solid and fire raptors are good, this is not news.

Who said I don't play in tournaments?

Acting like a 2200 meta would be identical to 2000 is silly.

It is just another unit for most armies - it is not more advantageous for SM armies.

You said you don't.

I guess you could give examples where you have?

**Xenomancers**

Primark G wrote:
Often it is advantageous to go second. I guess building a list that can weather an alpha strike is a lost skill.

"these 2 somehow manage to kill 1000 points on their own...it's your only chance."

Care to enlighten me how they do this ? Do they run around screaming boo?

Martel732 wrote:
Primark G wrote:
You have always claimed DE is auto win versus the power armor.

That wasn't a power armor list, really. It was a mech list. I bet those hellblasters did nothing vs Eldar/De.

Shift those goal posts.

Typically they don't do this but it has happened.

**Primark G**

I have started playing in tournaments awhile back.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Primark G wrote:
I have started playing in tournaments awhile back.

That's a dubious claim when you say that the Custodes Terminators are good so...