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Oops, quoted myself when I meant to edit.

Pure Space Marines win the Buckeyes Battles GT

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/07/23/pure-space-marines-win-the-buckeye-battles-gt/

Can't wait to see what the haters have to say about this GT win.

I think classic marines now are an army that can either easily be rolled over if you are not keeping them protected, or can really bring death to the heretics in the right hands.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Pure Space Marines win the Buckeyes Battles GT

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/07/23/pure-space-marines-win-the-buckeye-battles-gt/

For anyone not bothering to click, it’s a Gman ultras list with fire raptor, repulsors and some hellblasters as the meat of the army.

Marines are bad at the moment, but not so bad that they can’t pull out a trophy here and there with some combo of good list, good dice, good play, and good matchups. I’ve done that myself with 7e BA. Ended up winning a painted knight with a podium finish because in last round I played like the only list in the top 20 that I had an okay chance against. It happens.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Pure Space Marines win the Buckeyes Battles GT

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/07/23/pure-space-marines-win-the-buckeye-battles-gt/

For anyone not bothering to click, it’s a Gman ultras list with fire raptor, repulsors and some hellblasters as the meat of the army.

Nobody should be shocked.

The moment you remove Roboute the list does terrible. It's the 6th edition Tyranid codex under a different name.

It's also 2200 points which is strange.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Pure Space Marines win the Buckeyes Battles GT

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/07/23/pure-space-marines-win-the-buckeye-battles-gt/

For anyone not bothering to click, it’s a Gman ultras list with fire raptor, repulsors and some hellblasters as the meat of the army.

Nobody should be shocked.

The moment you remove Roboute the list does terrible. It's the 6th edition Tyranid codex under a different name.

This so much it's relying on Gman buff to tackle anything with high Toughness.

How could he possibly win a game against Imperial knights?

 Xenomancers wrote:
How could he possibly win a game against Imperial knights?

If you read the frontline games article, he mentions having played Imperial Knights and how difficult it was. So perhaps you can ask him yourself, through the article and its comments feature!

 Xenomancers wrote:
How could he possibly win a game against Imperial knights?

Simply wieght of dice with full rerolls of hit and wound.

Awesome stuff!

Double-Repulsor Man With Big Balls Coming Through!

"'Scuse me, 'scuse me..."

That's something I've noticed. Most people say if you're gonna run a repulsor you gotta run 2. That's quite a points sink

I'm confused this list is almost 2200 points.

The event was 2200 points lists with blind deployment round 1 atleast it's a very different setup from conventional 2k or less lists as 2.2k would actually be rule of 4.

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm confused this list is almost 2200 points.

Whats confusing about it? It was a 2200 point event.

 djones520 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm confused this list is almost 2200 points.

Whats confusing about it? It was a 2200 point event.

That's such an arbitrary weird number.

Who here plays 2200 regularly?

And, every point over 2000 helps Roboute. The more points you have near him, the more your army scales.

See how quick some are to dismiss a SM victory over trivial things that do not really matter.

 Primark G wrote:
See how quick some are to dismiss a SM victory over trivial things that do not really matter.

Says the guy who has never played in a tournament and considers Guilliman a "crutch that real ultramarine players don't need."

Guilliman is solid and fire raptors are good, this is not news.

Acting like a 2200 meta would be identical to 2000 is silly.

They used blind setup, too. Buckeye battles is weird.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
See how quick some are to dismiss a SM victory over trivial things that do not really matter.

Says the guy who has never played in a tournament and considers Guilliman a "crutch that real ultramarine players don't need."

Guilliman is solid and fire raptors are good, this is not news.

Who said I don't play in tournaments?

Acting like a 2200 meta would be identical to 2000 is silly.

It is just another unit for most armies - it is not more advantageous for SM armies.

Guilliman is such a force multiplyer that every points he can buff "counts" double.

Still, double repulsors with Guilliman.... All those dice. I can't even imagine the pain of going through both each shooting phase

 Primark G wrote:
Can't wait to see what the haters have to say about this GT win.

The list literally went out of its way to not take any traditional Space Marine units other than its bare minimum cheapest possible troops tax and 2 HQs because Space Marines are so bad.

space marines are extremely weak as it is current each codex since space marines vanilla have grown increasingly more powerful (barring the grey knights). The best lists for space marines utlitize gulliman, hellblasters, razorbacks, and aggressors, and scouts (depending on the list) aggressors are the dakkiest elite in the entire space marine arsenal. But a pure one faction list will not get you anywhere. Its good thing to have different chapters and forces alongside it.

 Primark G wrote:
See how quick some are to dismiss a SM victory over trivial things that do not really matter.

Because it doesn’t really show anything to counter what most of us are saying. People aren’t saying that repulsors, a fire raptor, and hellblasters supported by bobby are bad, especially when bobby gets more points than usual to multiply.

Thinking that the biggest multiplier unit in the game getting 200 more points to work with is trivial shows a lack of understanding about the game.

 Primark G wrote:


It is just another unit for most armies - it is not more advantageous for SM armies.

Not taking away from the win, but of course any buff/aura/bubble/things like Doom etc... grow somewhat exponentially with higher points, not linear. More stuff that can tap into an aura effect that has a static point value attached to it means you get more "value" out of it without having to pay extra points for the aura effect (e.g. the 400 for Guilliman) in the first place.

Guilliman with one guy next to him with a Lascannon in a 500 point game is not terribly efficient. You're probably better of dropping Guilliman and replacing it with 400 points of Lascannons (or other shooty stuff).

Guilliman with 500 guys with Lascannons next to him in a 5000 point game is every Guilliman-point worth in gold and Guilliman himself probably pulling the "worth" of another 2000-3000 points worth of firepower compared to a non-re-roll list.

Same reason that fixed-CP cost stratagems or psychic powers aren't well suited to a "competitive" game. Tide of Traitors on 40 Cultists is 4-times as efficient as Tide of Traitors on 10 Cultists. For a truly competitive tournament game, it would need to cost 4 times the resources (e.g. CP in this latter case, variable point costs depending on how many units benefit from it in the case of re-roll characters, etc.. ).

Doom doesn't grow with points, beyond a very small level. It impacts one enemy unit. Once you're at the point level where the one unit you must kill is going to die, it scales no further. It's value is effectively capped.

While that may seem like it grows linearly with points, recall that you can cast Doom once per turn. So you can't pay twice the points to get two dooms.

Therefore, Doom either grows linear with points in it's effectiveness per point spent, or stops growing (less than linear) after a certain points level when looking at impact on the game. It in no way grows exponentially.

An aura buff, on the other hand, is capped by what you can fit in the aura. In theory, there is an upper limit to this. However, that's a really high limit. It's still only polynomial, but does grow more-than-linearly.

The mistake is that Doom is *not* an aura. It's just inverted from the usual "One unit may" in that it impacts one *enemy* unit, not one *friendly* unit. Either way, it's still capped in a way an aura is not.

Null Zone *is* an aura, and *does* grow "exponentially" (technically, polynomially). (But Doom is OP, Null Zone is not.)

(Final note - to grow exponentially, each additional point would need to buff every point spent, not simply be buffed by a static amount of points spent. Gman is polynomial growth with points, not exponential.)

Technically at the higher points level you have more units you have to shoot at the doomed target. But this obviously isn't the same as the SM auras, and frequently won't come into effect unless the target is very difficult to kill. This is just nitpicking, sorry.

The main issue with the Roboute aura is that it effects some weapons much more than others, is much better against certain targets, and the only limit to what it can effect are the number of units you can fit within 6" and how much those units cost.

The problem part of the aura is the reroll wounds. Unlike reroll to hit, it doesn't buff the damage output of all shooting in a similar manner (+33% more hits). It helps you a lot more if you are wounding on 6s (+83% more wounds) than it does if you are wounding on 2s (+16% more wounds). This makes it incredibly difficult to quantify it's value.

You are basically forced to balance it based off of how many ideal units (ones with very high rate of fire S5-6 shots that can ignore the move and fire penalties, i.e. fire raptors and repulsors) can fit around it at a particular points level. Apparently that is 400 points, with 2k likely bring the assumed points value.

If you add more units, the already difficult to balance aura is going to be much better.

Doom is easy to use, whereas null zone is very tricky and risky. Also, 6" radius sucks.

Martel732 wrote:
Doom is easy to use, whereas null zone is very tricky and risky. Also, 6" radius sucks.

Agreed. 6" from a high value target is generally not where a Librarian wants to be! Not to mention there's zero synergy with a deep striking Librarian, be that Terminator or Jump Pack.