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This is absolutely absurd, the only thing GK's are good for is killing daemons. There is definitely a bias against GK's at GW. They probably got tabled a lot when GK's were OP.

It’s actually a re-installment of an very old rule from 3.5ed. Back then 3 special rules where given to the opposing army of GK. One was endless numbers to lesser deamons (exactly like today), and the other two where units. One greater deamon for about 100p and summoned lesser deamons for 100p as well. These things where ment to be thematic and to balance the advantage GK has over deamons.

Not going to defend game balance but from a theme perspective it makes sense that GK would only be called in if the situation with deamons is most dire, as portraied by the rule.

You almost have to give them anti-GK rules because if you don't you have a situation where either the game is an auto-loss if you have to face a GK army or GK are so crippled against any army they don't get their bonuses against that they have little hope of winning. Or both, if you're bad at making rules. You can't have one-sided "hate this faction" rules, it's just not good design in a game where you can pick any faction and play against any other faction.

 Nerak wrote:
It’s actually a re-installment of an very old rule from 3.5ed. Back then 3 special rules where given to the opposing army of GK. One was endless numbers to lesser deamons (exactly like today), and the other two where units. One greater deamon for about 100p and summoned lesser deamons for 100p as well. These things where ment to be thematic and to balance the advantage GK has over deamons.

Though 3e daemonhunters were much more specifically anti-daemon (and quite poor against everything else).
Notably they were the only 'automatic win' faction in 40k. Two sanctuary psykers sitting on objectives and the game was over.

They also had what I consider to be the single worst apoc formation ever - you couldn't field it unless your opponent turned up with daemons, and once the daemons were dead you had to hand your models over the daemon player so that he could carry on playing with them against your team-mates.

A.T. wrote:
They also had what I consider to be the single worst apoc formation ever - you couldn't field it unless your opponent turned up with daemons, and once the daemons were dead you had to hand your models over the daemon player so that he could carry on playing with them against your team-mates.

Actually that was one of the best Apocalypse formations because of how brilliantly it represented the fluff. It really represented how GK are loyal servants of Khorne (and possibly Tzeentch, given their obsession with secrets), as dangerous to the Imperium as the daemons they initially fight. You could call in the GK and ensure the death of the daemons, but once that was done the GK would not stop collecting blood and skulls until nothing else was left alive to witness their blasphemous acts. Or until an IG Basilisk battery splattered the GK from across the table, which is the happy ending to the story.

yeah, but if you let someone else use your models, he could damage them. Plus what would you be doing in the mean time, those big battles can last 2-3 hours, just looking at someone else playing with your army would be stupid. Plus if you have rules on a mobile device you would have to give him the access to it too, so he can check the rules.

Apoc battles are more about having fun and telling a story in a giant chaotic game than anything else. They are also so big that you could bring something else in addition to the GK so that once they turned you could play the other stuff. Those sorts of rules are just fun, and you'd pretty much have to plan it with the daemon player before hand.

That being said, yes we know GK are bad. No need for another thread.

Let's face it, GK and DW shouldn't really be seeing the field against most armies in the game. Why would GK be fighting Orks or DW be fighting UM? The whole mind control or to prevent them from activating a dangerous artifact rational gets old and should really be solved by an Inquisitor. If you make them too strong against their intended foes then no one will want to really play against them with their favorite foes because no one really wants to play the mooks to someone's action heroes.

I honestly think the best thing to do is to make them armies that stand up to all comers. GK get their cool gear because they are sent to fight Daemon hordes but, as the Inquisition's personal SM chapter, they do other black ops missions as well. DW are SM that get special permission to use a lot of lost or Xenos tech by the inquisition and are meant to fight aliens but, if you need SM against a different threat and the DW is right there... Those Holy Light cannons work great against a greater Daemon or a MBT. That Silver Needler goes through both Daemon and Ork hordes with ease. Got a problem governor whose removal might cause a lot of uncomfortable questions? Removal by GK will probably shut most people up.

Back when they first came out, both the Demonhunters and Witch Hunters had a list of reasons why they would fight different armies.

Demon hunter examples for orc (from memory sadly) included saving a relic in the way of a WHAAAA!, stopping the orcs from fighting a battle over a spot where a demon of Khorn was sealed. Stuff like that.

Give them both something like the old 'Preferred Enemy' against each other and call it a day.

 amanita wrote:
Give them both something like the old 'Preferred Enemy' against each other and call it a day.

actually GKsa have that vs deamons, +1 attack vs deamons and..... that's pretty much it. beyond that GKs get smite empowered vs deamons, but they really DON'T have a powerful anti-deamon toolbox. certainly not eneugh to justify the chaos deamons stratigium IMHO.

I've said this elsewhere, but as positive as I am about 8th edition, that daemon strategem is not something I'm capable of talking about in polite company.

I don't like it purely for lore reason, you can balance them in different ways.

It's revenge for that period of time where daemons couldn't even deploy vs grey knights and would auto lose.

Where GK back then good vs other armies too, or did they only bully demon lists?

Other armies had a chance for survival. Daemons literally auto-lose because they were unable to deploy due to the awful, incredibly dumb forced deepstrike deployment when the cruddy 4th edition split CSM and Daemons into two separate codex

Karol wrote:
Where GK back then good vs other armies too, or did they only bully demon lists?

depended on the army. The one thing they did that was impossibly silly was an anti-deep strike zone (all daemons HAD to deep strike back then) and literally every unit could do it. So you could deny almost the entire board from deep strike, which screwed daemons obviously, but also meant they were busted versus drop pods, Blood Angels, some nid stuff, anything with DS really.

the_scotsman wrote:

Karol wrote:
Where GK back then good vs other armies too, or did they only bully demon lists?

depended on the army. The one thing they did that was impossibly silly was an anti-deep strike zone (all daemons HAD to deep strike back then) and literally every unit could do it. So you could deny almost the entire board from deep strike, which screwed daemons obviously, but also meant they were busted versus drop pods, Blood Angels, some nid stuff, anything with DS really.

And no one used that tactic. I happen to be the one that figured it and posted it on-line first, and no one actually used it in games because it was such a dick move. So no, just because it was possible does not mean it was ever used.

SJ

 Peregrine wrote:

A.T. wrote:
They also had what I consider to be the single worst apoc formation ever - you couldn't field it unless your opponent turned up with daemons, and once the daemons were dead you had to hand your models over the daemon player so that he could carry on playing with them against your team-mates.

Actually that was one of the best Apocalypse formations because of how brilliantly it represented the fluff. It really represented how GK are loyal servants of Khorne (and possibly Tzeentch, given their obsession with secrets), as dangerous to the Imperium as the daemons they initially fight. You could call in the GK and ensure the death of the daemons, but once that was done the GK would not stop collecting blood and skulls until nothing else was left alive to witness their blasphemous acts. Or until an IG Basilisk battery splattered the GK from across the table, which is the happy ending to the story.

Uhhh...any imperial force that ever witnessed the GK fighting in battle or after one is considered to be corrupted by the daemons they were fighting...and murdered by the inquisition. Most of the Imperium doesn't even know the grey-knights exist. Only a greyknight is immune to the touch of the daemons corruption.


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In any case - the stratagem would be fine if you couldn't use it on units over a certain power level. Greater daemons coming back from the dead is just insane.


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 jeffersonian000 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Karol wrote:
Where GK back then good vs other armies too, or did they only bully demon lists?

depended on the army. The one thing they did that was impossibly silly was an anti-deep strike zone (all daemons HAD to deep strike back then) and literally every unit could do it. So you could deny almost the entire board from deep strike, which screwed daemons obviously, but also meant they were busted versus drop pods, Blood Angels, some nid stuff, anything with DS really.

And no one used that tactic. I happen to be the one that figured it and posted it on-line first, and no one actually used it in games because it was such a dick move. So no, just because it was possible does not mean it was ever used.

SJ

It wasn't really possible ether. Mass warp quake was almost always used but because why not - strike squads were bread and butter and they all had it? It did protect you from deep strike attacks. Blocking out the board? Practically impossible.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Karol wrote:
Where GK back then good vs other armies too, or did they only bully demon lists?

depended on the army. The one thing they did that was impossibly silly was an anti-deep strike zone (all daemons HAD to deep strike back then) and literally every unit could do it. So you could deny almost the entire board from deep strike, which screwed daemons obviously, but also meant they were busted versus drop pods, Blood Angels, some nid stuff, anything with DS really.

And no one used that tactic. I happen to be the one that figured it and posted it on-line first, and no one actually used it in games because it was such a dick move. So no, just because it was possible does not mean it was ever used.

SJ

Damn. Assuming that people at tournaments would opt to not do a thing because "its such a dick move". That's a bit of naivete right there.

No, GK armies in fifth didn't regularly insta-table opponents with super difficult to pull off warp quake shenanigans.

Yes, they were nearly impossible to harm via deep strike, and countered all deep strike armies including daemons extremely hard.


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it is also worth noting that in fifth edition (and almost every edition) entire factions simply weren't considered at all in the tournament community because they were so godawful there was no reason ever to look at them.

A tournament meta where only 3-4 factions were considered totally or even nearly unplayable would have been an absolute pipe dream at the time.

Space Wolves, Grey Knights, and Guard were the only factions that really existed at the time. And I'm talking 90-95% of lists at tournaments would be those three.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Uhhh...any imperial force that ever witnessed the GK fighting in battle or after one is considered to be corrupted by the daemons they were fighting...and murdered by the inquisition. Most of the Imperium doesn't even know the grey-knights exist. Only a greyknight is immune to the touch of the daemons corruption.

Excuses, excuses. These are the same GK who arrived on a planet with a demon problem and promptly slaughtered the SoB defending it (who were still fighting and uncorrupted) and used their blood to cast a magic spell to make themselves better at killing. I suppose we can nitpick the fact that Khorne doesn't like psykers, but GK very clearly embody the principle of "Khorne does not care where the blood flows from, only that it flows".

The Warp Quake tactic relied on the GK player going first, and they need to take four units of Strikes, four units of Interceptors, and an Inquisitor with Interceptor and a bunch of Plasma Servitors, Plasma Acolytes, and five Jokeroes. You would Shunt the Interceptors forward to blanket the board and start casting Warp Quake. Any Deep Strikers would end up either back in Ongoing Reserve, removed from the game, or in front of the Inquisitor Warband.

This at the time Paladins and Psyflemen Dreads were the Dominate build.

No one used it.

SJ

Why would GK fight xenos? "reports from a planetary governor indicating big, lumbering green guys, oh, and there's a plague on the planet!" must be Nurgle... Or Orks and the governor has man-flu.

Why would Deathwatch fight demons? "help, some aliens we've never seen before attacked us! They're beautiful and lithe, and move so quick!"

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Uhhh...any imperial force that ever witnessed the GK fighting in battle or after one is considered to be corrupted by the daemons they were fighting...and murdered by the inquisition. Most of the Imperium doesn't even know the grey-knights exist. Only a greyknight is immune to the touch of the daemons corruption.

Excuses, excuses. These are the same GK who arrived on a planet with a demon problem and promptly slaughtered the SoB defending it (who were still fighting and uncorrupted) and used their blood to cast a magic spell to make themselves better at killing. I suppose we can nitpick the fact that Khorne doesn't like psykers, but GK very clearly embody the principle of "Khorne does not care where the blood flows from, only that it flows".

It isn't like it's a bad excuse. It IS a legit reason, and for that same reason they did have that old Apocalypse formation that, while bad, was super on-point when it came to fluff. Just make sure they all died before the opponent had all their daemons killed!

Grey Knights are a problem because they were made an army of their own in previous editions; now they can't get rid of them because there's players out there.

If I were adding them to 8th edition, I'd simply not give them points values. Make them narrative play only, optimise them against daemons and let them go.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Grey Knights are a problem because they were made an army of their own in previous editions; now they can't get rid of them because there's players out there.

If I were adding them to 8th edition, I'd simply not give them points values. Make them narrative play only, optimise them against daemons and let them go.

That's.. Pretty much getting rid of them, given how many people play Matched Play points.

Or ... GW could just rebalance GK by fixing them, like everyone has asked them to do since their codex dropped like a lead balloon. It’s not like GW is incapable of fixing a Codex, they just have to care enough to bother fixing it. The issue all along has been that no one at GW play GK, and their play testers openly admit they never liked GK.

The ball is in GW’s hands, we just need to wait to see if GW fumbles or scores.

SJ

Remove all buffs vs demons, make them the elite psychic space marine chapter, and balance them agaisnt everyone.
Let the anti-demon stuff be their fluff.

craggy wrote:
Why would GK fight xenos? "reports from a planetary governor indicating big, lumbering green guys, oh, and there's a plague on the planet!" must be Nurgle... Or Orks and the governor has man-flu.

Why would Deathwatch fight demons? "help, some aliens we've never seen before attacked us! They're beautiful and lithe, and move so quick!"

Yeah, but these chapters only get pulled in when an Inquisitor investigates threats and decides everything is screwed. An Inquisitor who calls in GK saying an Ork Waaagh is a daemon invasion is going to have bad things happen to them for tying up the premier anti-Daemon force in the Imperium when IG and regular SM will do the trick. Chances are a large mobilization of DW would be questioned unless the Orks showed some unusual level of threat or had a notable Ork hero backing them. Inquisitors are supposed to investigate and solve problems on their own with their authority to mobilize Imperial forces in the areas they're in.

Bottom line ... It's kinda of fluffy, but, it makes grey knights super weak against demons. Nothing like that demon Prince or unit of 30 plague bearers coming back at full health.


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Skaorn wrote:

craggy wrote:
Why would GK fight xenos? "reports from a planetary governor indicating big, lumbering green guys, oh, and there's a plague on the planet!" must be Nurgle... Or Orks and the governor has man-flu.

Why would Deathwatch fight demons? "help, some aliens we've never seen before attacked us! They're beautiful and lithe, and move so quick!"

Yeah, but these chapters only get pulled in when an Inquisitor investigates threats and decides everything is screwed. An Inquisitor who calls in GK saying an Ork Waaagh is a daemon invasion is going to have bad things happen to them for tying up the premier anti-Daemon force in the Imperium when IG and regular SM will do the trick. Chances are a large mobilization of DW would be questioned unless the Orks showed some unusual level of threat or had a notable Ork hero backing them. Inquisitors are supposed to investigate and solve problems on their own with their authority to mobilize Imperial forces in the areas they're in.

If the death watch are fighting demons then they were likely responding to a xenos threat and stumbled upon demons.

Grey Knights will respond to recover demon artifacts, warp occurrences/anomalies... And these things may either attract xenos or be in xenos controlled areas.

You can make a story for fighting xenos... And I mperium. I just can't figure out a good gk v gk fight story :p