Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yes.

Reasons:

1) There is no way to resolve Overwatch "like a normal shooting attack" unless we are treating overwatch "As if it were the shooting phase"

2) Steps 1 and 2 are both pre-chosen for Overwatch; The unit chosen to shoot with is the unit that had a charge declared against it, and the target for that shooting is the unit that declared the charge(because this is not a choice, and is determined by Charge declaration; Character targeting restrictions do not apply)

3) If you believe that Overwatch being "resolved like a normal shooting attack" =/= "Is treated as if it were the shooting phase", with the exception of #2 above and the parenthetical caveat in the overwatch rules; then you lose all choice of weapons(let alone profiles) to fire at the charging unit, including any 1-shot or self damaging weapons. You go straight to step 4, having chosen no weapons and not shooting anything.

4) Born soldiers does not kick in in the Cadian unit's(or "their") previous movement phase, but rather "The previous movement phase"; in which they had no ability to move as it was the opponent's movement phase.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
And Cadian's normal shooting attacks don't reroll ones. They only reroll ones in their Shooting Phase if they didn't move during the previous Movement Phase.

And Overwatch is "resolved like a normal shooting attack" Does a normal shooting attack happen in the shooting phase? A: Yes. Therefore you resolve Overwatch with all the same rules you would for a shooting attack in the shooting phase.

This is not a logical statement. The rules for executing a shooting attack are located in the Shooting Phase of the rules, but that does not make a shooting attack the Shooting Phase.

Following that logic, you can reason that since a Square is a Rectangle that a Rectangle is a Square.

 Elbows wrote:
I could have sworn I saw an FAQ which addressed this.

The Biel-Tan Craftworld trait it similar, but worded differently, and I know people use it in Overwatch.

"Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of
ASPECT WARRIORS with this attribute.
In addition, you can re-roll hit rolls of 1
for shuriken weapons used by units with
this attribute. A shuriken weapon is any
weapon profile whose name includes
the word ‘shuriken’ (e.g. shuriken pistol,
Avenger shuriken catapult etc.) Kurnous’
Bow is also a shuriken weapon."

How do you guys feel about the Biel-Tan one? (Just to muddy the waters)

That one is clear though.
It states reroll 1 for shuriken weapons, it does not bring in phases, therefore biel tan is allowed to reroll in overwatch.

Unlike cadia which states one specific phase of the players turn.
Also treating it like a shooting phase =\= actual shooting phase.

 alextroy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
And Cadian's normal shooting attacks don't reroll ones. They only reroll ones in their Shooting Phase if they didn't move during the previous Movement Phase.

And Overwatch is "resolved like a normal shooting attack" Does a normal shooting attack happen in the shooting phase? A: Yes. Therefore you resolve Overwatch with all the same rules you would for a shooting attack in the shooting phase.

This is not a logical statement.

Except that it is

The rules for executing a shooting attack are located in the Shooting Phase of the rules, but that does not make a shooting attack the Shooting Phase.

I never said it did, but a normal shooting attack happens in the shooting phase, agreed?

Following that logic, you can reason that since a Square is a Rectangle that a Rectangle is a Square.

Not following you, how is this related at all to the rules?

Please stay on topic.

Shooting phase. Reroll 1's.

Overwatch is not in the shooting phase.

If you play it like that you're cheating. Clear and simple. Others have sourced the rules.

I'm not BaconCatBugs' biggest fan, but he is 100% correct on this.

The rule states that you can re-roll 1's in the shooting phase if they remained stationary. Overwatch happens in the charge phase, so you cannot reroll 1's in this shooting attack.

I think people are getting confused over the fact that they assume overwatch is is a shooting phase rather than a shooting attack.

This really couldn't be clearer. You can resolve something "like a normal shooting attack" without actually being in the Shooting phase, and doing so doesn't make it the Shooting phase. The Cadian rule is very clear on this: it only works in the Shooting phase, not in Overwatch.

By the “logic” of people saying yes the get to re roll 1s in the fight phase too. Which is nonsense. The rule says in the shooting phase. It said add 6” to movement in the movement phase would you add 6 in the charge phase too? No!

 DeathReaper wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
And Cadian's normal shooting attacks don't reroll ones. They only reroll ones in their Shooting Phase if they didn't move during the previous Movement Phase.

And Overwatch is "resolved like a normal shooting attack" Does a normal shooting attack happen in the shooting phase? A: Yes. Therefore you resolve Overwatch with all the same rules you would for a shooting attack in the shooting phase.

This is not a logical statement.

Except that it is

The rules for executing a shooting attack are located in the Shooting Phase of the rules, but that does not make a shooting attack the Shooting Phase.

I never said it did, but a normal shooting attack happens in the shooting phase, agreed?

Nope. There are two times you are allowed to make shooting attacks without referencing a special rule. The Shooting Phase and the Charge Phase (aka Overwatch). The normal rules for Shooting Attacks are in the Shooting Phase of the rules because duplicating them in the Charge Phase would be a waste of time and an opportunity to get something inconsistent if you change one. Instead, they just reference the differences between normal shooting attacks and Overwatch shooting attacks for Overwatch.

There are also many other opportunities to make shooting attacks, that may or may not follow the normal shooting attack rules that are explained in the Shooting Phase part of the rules. My Sisters of Battle love shooting at the "Start of the Turn" with their Acts of Faith. They are not shooting in the Shooting Phase when they do so.

It has been confirmed by the ITC Tournament Committee that Cadians do not get to re-roll 1s in Overwatch.

This is the part where someone is supposed to say 'that's great if you're going to use ITC's special snowflake houserules... yadda yadda" and then the argument continues so I have something to read while at work.

 deviantduck wrote:
This is the part where someone is supposed to say 'that's great if you're going to use ITC's special snowflake houserules... yadda yadda" and then the argument continues so I have something to read while at work.

Except it's not a house rule, it's an actual rule. Tournaments following the rules are rare, but not unheard of.

 Rockguy475 wrote:
It has been confirmed by the ITC Tournament Committee that Cadians do not get to re-roll 1s in Overwatch.

Which is fine if you are using ITC rules. Even then, text message/emails are not considered rules source.

 alextroy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
a normal shooting attack happens in the shooting phase, agreed?

Nope.

Well you are 100% incorrect on this.

A normal shooting attack happens in the shooting phase, as the rules for the shooting phase tell you how to make a shooting attack.

This is a classic old school ymdc thread.

 Primark G wrote:
This is a classic old school ymdc thread.

You mean there's a clearly written rule the interpretation of which is confirmed by a tournament organizer and then some people still refuse to accept the determination because they can't possibly ever be wrong or just like arguing for the sake of arguing?

Why do we care about a tournament organizer who can make his own rules what he wants them to be.

Fragile wrote:
Why do we care about a tournament organizer who can make his own rules what he wants them to be.

This isn’t just a random local gameshop tournament organizer. This guy is actually on the ITC gaming committee. They follow all the rules as normal besides the ones listed here (like 1st floor ruins blocking LoS) : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bUs0HrJ3f6YzR6mWlT1LRLq0i9_0ekf7ah9WhCTxsIo/mobilebasic

And they have made rules and errata inconsistent for their tournaments with what Games Workshop wanted. They have no bearing in rules discussions unless the rules question is about ITC.

Fragile wrote:
And they have made rules and errata inconsistent for their tournaments with what Games Workshop wanted. They have no bearing in rules discussions unless the rules question is about ITC.

You do realise that they are part of the play testing set up?
Yes some of the judgments they have made in the absence of GW errata etc have not aligned with what GW eventually ruled when they later released the GW FAQ's

But if you want to play the game a different way and change the rules, your entitled to do that if your playing some else who also wants to play your house rules.
But if you show up to an event don't be surprised if your told your playing wrongly.

ITC is not official but generally I respect their opinion - it is better than an anon troll.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
a normal shooting attack happens in the shooting phase, agreed?

Nope.

Well you are 100% incorrect on this.

A normal shooting attack happens in the shooting phase, as the rules for the shooting phase tell you how to make a shooting attack.

Love your selective response that completely ignores my explanation of why I said nope

Safe to say there is no point in discussing this with you any longer as you are unwilling to even acknowledge a counterargument.

Ice_can wrote:

Fragile wrote:
And they have made rules and errata inconsistent for their tournaments with what Games Workshop wanted. They have no bearing in rules discussions unless the rules question is about ITC.

You do realise that they are part of the play testing set up?

They like many other game stores give input. That makes them no more a valid rule source than any other. FLG makes mistakes in their uploaded games just like everyone else.

Yes some of the judgments they have made in the absence of GW errata etc have not aligned with what GW eventually ruled when they later released the GW FAQ's

But if you want to play the game a different way and change the rules, your entitled to do that if your playing some else who also wants to play your house rules.

Which only weakens your argument about your source.

But if you show up to an event don't be surprised if your told your playing wrongly.

I guess you have never heard of tournament packets ?

 alextroy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
a normal shooting attack happens in the shooting phase, agreed?

Nope.

Well you are 100% incorrect on this.

A normal shooting attack happens in the shooting phase, as the rules for the shooting phase tell you how to make a shooting attack.

Love your selective response that completely ignores my explanation of why I said nope

Safe to say there is no point in discussing this with you any longer as you are unwilling to even acknowledge a counterargument.

Because your argument ignores the "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack" part of the rules.

If you do not ignore that, you can see that "a normal shooting attack" is one outlined in the shooting phase section of the rules which occurs in the Shooting phase, and not an Overwatch attack.

To say Overwatch is "a normal shooting attack" is incorrect, since you do not "Choose Targets" or "Choose Unit to Shoot With" (P. 5 of the 40k battle primer) and you can not split fire.

Hot damn the lengths some people will go to for those sweet, sweet reroll 1s!?

This is quite simple and we've had the same question before;

1. The Cadian rule explicitly states it only comes into effect in the SHOOTING PHASE.
2. Overwatch rules explicitly state it DOESN'T HAPPEN IN THE SHOOTING PHASE.

No, they don't get to reroll 1s on overwatch because that isn't the correct phase. Bizarrely if they could somehow shoot in the enemy's shooting phase then they'd get the reroll 1s.

I’m stumped this is even a question... and the answer is ‘no’.

Isn't this the same argument from 7th about MC's firing two weapons in overwatch and the answer was deemed 'yes, they can fire two weapons'?

 Mulletdude wrote:
Isn't this the same argument from 7th about MC's firing two weapons in overwatch and the answer was deemed 'yes, they can fire two weapons'?

No, it literally has nothing to do with that, and even if it did, 7th has zero bearing on how 8th works.

Ice_can wrote:

Fragile wrote:
And they have made rules and errata inconsistent for their tournaments with what Games Workshop wanted. They have no bearing in rules discussions unless the rules question is about ITC.

You do realise that they are part of the play testing set up?
Yes some of the judgments they have made in the absence of GW errata etc have not aligned with what GW eventually ruled when they later released the GW FAQ's

But if you want to play the game a different way and change the rules, your entitled to do that if your playing some else who also wants to play your house rules.
But if you show up to an event don't be surprised if your told your playing wrongly.

Of course if you play itc event you will play by their rules. You realize right that itc is one country only right? They have zero status outside besides as house rules. I can house rule too. Irrelevant when playing elsewhere'

Only official source that generates what are mostly standard play is gw. So bombarding itc for this was silly in first place unless you wanted ruling only for itc events. Gw was proper direction

A large gaming organization has a bit more credibility