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 godardc wrote:
Wow "competitive" 40k is even more garbage than I thought. Happy to not be part of this buffoonery.

^THIS^
So damn much this.
It's just doing more harm than good as everyone stands on the sidelines laughing at how pathetic the 40k competitive scene truly is.

 godardc wrote:
Slow play, IIRC, is intentional, right ? Maybe, I don't know, just trying to figure it out, maybe it is non intentional, for the most, in ITC ? I already had to stop games at turn 4 but without intentional slow play, just having fun with my friends so nothing to win here.
How could we know which kind it is ? Is the game to slow or are some players intentionaly to slow ?

Some people intentionally slowplay. Others are simply slow because the are not practiced and don't need to pay attention to time in their casual games.
The clock solves both. The cheaters can't slowplay and the slower players tend to play faster with an in your face reminder of time left.

 Ordana wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Slow play, IIRC, is intentional, right ? Maybe, I don't know, just trying to figure it out, maybe it is non intentional, for the most, in ITC ? I already had to stop games at turn 4 but without intentional slow play, just having fun with my friends so nothing to win here.
How could we know which kind it is ? Is the game to slow or are some players intentionaly to slow ?

Some people intentionally slowplay. Others are simply slow because the are not practiced and don't need to pay attention to time in their casual games.
The clock solves both. The cheaters can't slowplay and the slower players tend to play faster with an in your face reminder of time left.

No, this clock is made exclusively to prevent cheaters.

If you only wanted to push the honestly slow players, you would do it the way me, Marma and many many others do it, which is using a clock that is switched only at the end of the turn. This works really well, and many players who play hordes do practice with it if they want to bring an horde to an event. Afraid of cheaters taking away your time? Call a TO.

The kind of chess clock rules that ITC wants to introduce are beyond overkill to just have players play faster, they are there to disallow intentional slow playing, but if they are worried about this, then i don't understand why they also don't check every dice and every ruler in there!

Spoletta wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Slow play, IIRC, is intentional, right ? Maybe, I don't know, just trying to figure it out, maybe it is non intentional, for the most, in ITC ? I already had to stop games at turn 4 but without intentional slow play, just having fun with my friends so nothing to win here.
How could we know which kind it is ? Is the game to slow or are some players intentionaly to slow ?

Some people intentionally slowplay. Others are simply slow because the are not practiced and don't need to pay attention to time in their casual games.
The clock solves both. The cheaters can't slowplay and the slower players tend to play faster with an in your face reminder of time left.

No, this clock is made exclusively to prevent cheaters.

If you only wanted to push the honestly slow players, you would do it the way me, Marma and many many others do it, which is using a clock that is switched only at the end of the turn. This works really well, and many players who play hordes do practice with it if they want to bring an horde to an event. Afraid of cheaters taking away your time? Call a TO.

The kind of chess clock rules that ITC wants to introduce are beyond overkill to just have players play faster, they are there to disallow intentional slow playing, but if they are worried about this, then i don't understand why they also don't check every dice and every ruler in there!

Im confused.... your mad because the ITC chess clock would prevent intentional and unintentional slowplay and that's bad because they aren't checking dice at the door? Also, I can't remember which tournaments but I do know some of them do require you to use event dice if you make it into the top brackets.

Spoletta wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Slow play, IIRC, is intentional, right ? Maybe, I don't know, just trying to figure it out, maybe it is non intentional, for the most, in ITC ? I already had to stop games at turn 4 but without intentional slow play, just having fun with my friends so nothing to win here.
How could we know which kind it is ? Is the game to slow or are some players intentionaly to slow ?

Some people intentionally slowplay. Others are simply slow because the are not practiced and don't need to pay attention to time in their casual games.
The clock solves both. The cheaters can't slowplay and the slower players tend to play faster with an in your face reminder of time left.

No, this clock is made exclusively to prevent cheaters.

If you only wanted to push the honestly slow players, you would do it the way me, Marma and many many others do it, which is using a clock that is switched only at the end of the turn. This works really well, and many players who play hordes do practice with it if they want to bring an horde to an event. Afraid of cheaters taking away your time? Call a TO.

The kind of chess clock rules that ITC wants to introduce are beyond overkill to just have players play faster, they are there to disallow intentional slow playing, but if they are worried about this, then i don't understand why they also don't check every dice and every ruler in there!

By the time you notice your getting slow played they already spend an hour on their turn and your to late.

Asmodios wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think a 3 hour slot is long enough for a full game. I'd rather have 3 5-hour slots.

Many of the larger GTs have narrative events with longer slots... simply play in one of those then. Or tell tournaments what you prefer and if there are enough people with similar thoughts they will change. When they conduct surveys and polling most people don't want to go to an event to play 1 or 2 games a day

I think this a great suggestion for Martel and I highly recommend it.

I play a horde army and I was originally against Chess Clocks at events......Not anymore

I was legitimately slow played at my last tournament by a number of Marine armies and an Eldar army. It is absolutely ridiculous that my 200+ model army was playing FASTER then a 40 model Space Marine list. He literally measured every single model, tape to point, he checked the dice numerous times to make sure he got all his hits and then he rerolled and took even longer. He spent more time double checking his abilities and unit traits then playing the game, and before anyone says "well he was probably new to the army" the guy has played SMs for over 5 years.

So yeah, I am all aboard the clock train now

 Marmatag wrote:
Clocks aren't there to guarantee a 6th turn, they're there to guarantee equity of time.

You have not proven that these games had an inequity of time. It's possible people would have played faster with the clocks, but that is NOT the problem they're being implemented to solve. They are being implemented to prevent time abuse, and this data does not prove that time abuse is happening to the degree you're claiming.

Inhale. Exhale. Sometimes you get bested.

"you cant prove that there wasn't equal time used (because we have no way to quantify it without clocks) hahaha checkmate"

I love running into people like you that are so mad that every point you have tried to throw out has been shot down by numerous people in this thread so your only recourse is a clear "got ya" questions that isn't even good. Chess clocks give you the ability to play a full game if your opponent decides to slow play and not get a full game that's his issue. You are clearly upset that your days slowplaying are numbered, i suggest you start looking into your next plan on how to cheat (your ideas in the beginning of the thread were really weak).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
I play a horde army and I was originally against Chess Clocks at events......Not anymore

I was legitimately slow played at my last tournament by a number of Marine armies and an Eldar army. It is absolutely ridiculous that my 200+ model army was playing FASTER then a 40 model Space Marine list. He literally measured every single model, tape to point, he checked the dice numerous times to make sure he got all his hits and then he rerolled and took even longer. He spent more time double checking his abilities and unit traits then playing the game, and before anyone says "well he was probably new to the army" the guy has played SMs for over 5 years.

So yeah, I am all aboard the clock train now

Ummmmmm excuse me some people have clearly stated that slow play doesn't exist thus you must be lying

Why is the casual community so outright hostile to the competitive players lol? Like, just atrocious amounts of toxicity towards anyone who wants integrity in tournaments

 SHUPPET wrote:
Why is the casual community so outright hostile to the competitive players lol? Like, just atrocious amounts of toxicity towards anyone who wants integrity in tournaments

I don't even consider myself a competitive player. I love bringing themed lists even if it sacrifices efficiency and I go into a tournament just hoping to stay positive on my W/L....... You know what the worst feeling ever is though? spending one of the few weekends a year I actually get to attend a tournament on getting slow played by someone and barely getting to do anything with my army before loading it back onto a tray and feeling cheated out of my time and money. So I wouldn't lump in all casual players in this group... actually i wouldn't be surprised if some in this thread claiming how they plan to cheat chess clocks are competitive players whos army focuses on not going past turn 3/

Clearly anyone who disagrees with you is a slowplayer. Because it's physically impossible to be rational and disagree with such a mighty intellect.

So yeah. 100% of people who support chess clocks are geniuses who watch Rick & Morty. And 100% of people who oppose them are slow playing That Guys.

This just isn't a problem I've seen. I don't believe it is as widespread as you're claiming. You haven't proven that it is. Sorry that bugs you but it's just the way it is man.

Spoletta wrote:

 Ordana wrote:


The kind of chess clock rules that ITC wants to introduce are beyond overkill to just have players play faster, they are there to disallow intentional slow playing, but if they are worried about this, then i don't understand why they also don't check every dice and every ruler in there!

Aren't warmachine and inifinity clocks the same way the ITC one is? And people don't seem to have a problem with them, they all just train more to play faster.

 Marmatag wrote:
Clearly anyone who disagrees with you is a slowplayer. Because it's physically impossible to be rational and disagree with such a mighty intellect.

So yeah. 100% of people who support chess clocks are geniuses who watch Rick & Morty. And 100% of people who oppose them are slow playing That Guys.

This just isn't a problem I've seen. I don't believe it is as widespread as you're claiming. You haven't proven that it is. Sorry that bugs you but it's just the way it is man.

>start off the thread with tons of ways you are planning on cheating chess clocks and cheating
>get called out for being a slow player and cheat
>change tactic
>claim slow play doesn't exist "lol link the evidence or get out"
>crap he actually sent me a link
>haha if I haven't seen it, it hasn't happened
>ignore GW saying it was an issue at their GT
>ignore ITC saying it was an issue (thus the chess clocks)
>ignore actual posts from people in the thread who have been slow-played
>crap gotta switch tactics again
>lol you don't have a breakdown of time usage in every game
>lol he won't be able to provide a link for this because we don't have clock /genius
>just repeat over and over that he hasn't proven slow play exists
>mix in some ad hominem attacks about crappy cartoons and his intellect and claim victory

Asmodios wrote:

>start off the thread with tons of ways you are planning on cheating chess clocks and cheating
>get called out for being a slow player and cheat

Except, that isn't at all how it went. And, you can call me a slow player and a cheat all day, if you want to. This is the internet, where there are no consequences to that kind of nonsense.

Fact of the matter is, there are ways to game chess clocks. I don't see why we have to pretend there are 0 flaws in them just because you are rabidly defending this implementation.

You're making pretty big claims. It's not unreasonable for someone to ask for proof.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:

>claim slow play doesn't exist "lol link the evidence or get out"

What are you talking about, this is not at all what i said? Is your reading comprehension this bad, seriously? Or are you just trying to troll?

Saying i haven't observed it to be as wide spread a problem as you're claiming is ENTIRELY different from saying it isn't a problem. We've all seen Tony's nonsense. I even went so far as to say that i have 0 problems with this implementation if games were scheduled to end on turn 5. But i doubt you read that, because RABID DEFENSE BRAWWLRRR *Foams at mouth*

 Marmatag wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

>start off the thread with tons of ways you are planning on cheating chess clocks and cheating
>get called out for being a slow player and cheat

Except, that isn't at all how it went. And, you can call me a slow player and a cheat all day, if you want to. This is the internet, where there are no consequences to that kind of nonsense.

Fact of the matter is, there are ways to game chess clocks. I don't see why we have to pretend there are 0 flaws in them just because you are rabidly defending this implementation.

You're making pretty big claims. It's not unreasonable for someone to ask for proof.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:

>claim slow play doesn't exist "lol link the evidence or get out"

What are you talking about, this is not at all what i said? Is your reading comprehension this bad, seriously? Or are you just trying to troll?

Saying i haven't observed it to be as wide spread a problem as you're claiming is ENTIRELY different from saying it isn't a problem. We've all seen Tony's nonsense. I even went so far as to say that i have 0 problems with this implementation if games were scheduled to end on turn 5. But i doubt you read that, because RABID DEFENSE BRAWWLRRR *Foams at mouth*

"I can't wait for chess clocks to destroy good faith gameplay.

When someone asks me the range of my weapons or any specific rule to my army, i'm just going to silently hand them my codex. Burn your time.

Want a friendly game? Don't put me behind the 8-ball as i play a "horde" army."
literally your first post in the thread on how to abuse chess clocks

"Show me the proof or stop claiming it as fact. If it's obvious you shouldn't have any trouble proving it."
You asking for the "evidence" that i then linked...... you doing ok man this one is only a page back and you cant remember it

Asmodios wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Clearly anyone who disagrees with you is a slowplayer. Because it's physically impossible to be rational and disagree with such a mighty intellect.

So yeah. 100% of people who support chess clocks are geniuses who watch Rick & Morty. And 100% of people who oppose them are slow playing That Guys.

This just isn't a problem I've seen. I don't believe it is as widespread as you're claiming. You haven't proven that it is. Sorry that bugs you but it's just the way it is man.

>start off the thread with tons of ways you are planning on cheating chess clocks and cheating
>get called out for being a slow player and cheat
>change tactic
>claim slow play doesn't exist "lol link the evidence or get out"
>crap he actually sent me a link
>haha if I haven't seen it, it hasn't happened
>ignore GW saying it was an issue at their GT
>ignore ITC saying it was an issue (thus the chess clocks)
>ignore actual posts from people in the thread who have been slow-played
>crap gotta switch tactics again
>lol you don't have a breakdown of time usage in every game
>lol he won't be able to provide a link for this because we don't have clock /genius
>just repeat over and over that he hasn't proven slow play exists
>mix in some ad hominem attacks about crappy cartoons and his intellect and claim victory

LOL you're spot on.

Clocks are there to:

Provide equal time between players (there is one poster in this very thread that feels entitled to using as much time as possible with no consideration for his opponent)

Provide that games go 6 turns (ITC mission format).

That is it I say.

I feel like if the vast majority of games are not reaching a natural conclution it hints more at fundamental game flaws rather than intentional cheating.

Spoletta wrote:

 Ordana wrote:


The kind of chess clock rules that ITC wants to introduce are beyond overkill to just have players play faster, they are there to disallow intentional slow playing, but if they are worried about this, then i don't understand why they also don't check every dice and every ruler in there!

Aren't warmachine and inifinity clocks the same way the ITC one is? And people don't seem to have a problem with them, they all just train more to play faster.

I think that you messed something up with the quotes.

In any case, no, they are not the same. WMC is a game where (after MK1) there are very few interactions with your opponent during the turn. In 40K if you say that you switch the clock for every roll, decision, model removing etc... you are telling players to switch the clock up to 300 times per game, while in WMC this is more like 15-16 times.

Mind also that WMC is played on a 48x48, with few elements whose height has no bearing on the game's rules, so the clock is on the table and easily accessible.

In 40K a clock has no way to be easy accessible, the table is 48x72 full of big elements, models with huge wings, flyers and so on. It will be handed between player's side every switch. It will really require a dedicated training for players to use them, because it really alters the game heavily.

Just look at the resolution of a smite with those rules:

I roll to manifest the power.

< Switch>

Opponent rolls to disperde

< Switch>

I roll for mortal wounds

< Switch>

Opponent removes casualties

< Switch>

Back to my phase.


Four switches to resolve one smite! And i'm not even getting in the assault phase, where to resolve a single assault against 2 units you switch around 20 times.

If you look at the complaints of slow play you find in this thread, you will notice that 99% of them have problems with the opponents taking too long during their own turn, which is not what this clock system is supposed to avoid. That problem is easily avoided by using a clock that is only switched at the end of a turn, so you have a time limit on what you do.
This system instead takes an heavy toll on players, because it wants to stop those that hinder YOUR turn, which isn't a common problem at all!

This is why i call those clock rules an overkill, because compared to a more simple clock system, it doesn't solve anything relevant but it warps the game completely.

When i said that at this point you should also premeasure enemy tape measurers and dices, is because if you implement this kind of clock system, it means that you are really reaching those levels of overreaction. Cheaters have to be dealth by TOs, not by implementing event rules which weigh down heavily on the honest players!

TLDR: This is not a chess clock system (which could be reasonably implemented), this is an anti cheater chess clock system, which is completely out of place in this environment.

The Salt Mine wrote:
I feel like if the vast majority of games are not reaching a natural conclusion it hints more at fundamental game flaws rather than intentional cheating.

At recent ITC events I have started recording turn start times to help alert judges to slow play issues. The majority of my opponents are in the 40-60 minute time frame for their first turns which of course precludes a full game. In some cases I have been accused of lying or falsifying the times I record because opponents cannot believe the amount of time that they are actually using. Chess clocks will help players understand exactly what they are doing (not playing fast enough for a tournament) when confronted with objective data, whether that comes from intentional (alpha armies wanting to win a low turn count or horde armies trying to swarm objectives) or unintentional (player does not know their army/opponent's army/8th edition that well, player cannot consistently advance the game state, player does not roll dice quickly, player does not use movement tray) reasons.

I agree with Spoletta for the most part.

Too many micro switches from too far away from the clock, someone is going to get screwed by not remembering to switch the clock, their opponent isn't going to say anything and then the forgetful person is going to lose because their time is up at the end of the second turn.

Either that or there is going to have to be some draconian "you can't ever do anything on your opponents clock" rule which then will expect players to be perfect. I won't "remember" to switch the clock over to you and in the heat of a do or die save or whatever you'll roll and we'll end up with some sort of pulling a Tony part 2...

All that being said I'm still game to see how it works out. BAO will be a good test of it and if there aren't any problems awesome. Hell it might just be enough to have people practicing under the clock to speed up peoples basic pace of play.

The threat of the clock at only the second day could be a good answer but if the problem really is as serious as people say it is then I don't see how you could excuse no clock in the first round games as those have a huge impact as to who is actually on those final tables...

Saying there is no opponent interaction on your turn in Warmachine just isn't true. There's loads of reactive effects and they're actually more involved than just rolling a die most of the time.

Microswitches don't happen unless you're really down to the wire. In WMH most people don't switch over for things like Tough (a kind of saving throw) rolls unless there's only a few minutes left on the clock. In fairness 40k is a bit different due to having to roll 10+ saves sometimes but when its stuff like the Smite example I wouldn't expect people to switch unless there was only 2 minutes left or the opponent is being deliberately slow.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Saying there is no opponent interaction on your turn in Warmachine just isn't true. There's loads of reactive effects and they're actually more involved than just rolling a die most of the time.

Microswitches don't happen unless you're really down to the wire. In WMH most people don't switch over for things like Tough (a kind of saving throw) rolls unless there's only a few minutes left on the clock. In fairness 40k is a bit different due to having to roll 10+ saves sometimes but when its stuff like the Smite example I wouldn't expect people to switch unless there was only 2 minutes left or the opponent is being deliberately slow.

That's what i'm saying, there are more sensible ways to implement a time limit. Right now they are saying that you have to swtich for every roll, and i don't think that's feasible.

So, Chess clocks are an attempt at evenly breaking up the allotted time between 2 players, to ensure that a game does not end “prematurely” because of one player or their army. Nothing more, nothing less.

It is going to take some getting used to, and likely will require some minor rules changes over time as different things are highlighted and addressed, but, until we get more results back from them, we can’t truly begin to address peoples individual concerns.

Can they be gamed. Yes, they probably can – and in ever more ingenious ways as time goes on. But, once a “game” is identified it is then up to ITC/TOs etc to determine a counter to that… That or they could actually start to enforce rules for once…

In regards to “is half the allotted time for each player, regardless…” being fair or not, you need to go back to the start point. If the event rulespack says “games will be played with a 3 hour time limit, with each player being assigned 1.5 hours via a chess clock” then, yes, it is completely fair. The players know beforehand what the situation is going to be at the event, so they can plan accordingly.
Just because 1 player has a 200-model assault only army, doesn’t mean they should get more time that a 50 model, shooting, psychic and assault army. (for example) It’s the same concept of getting matched in a game where you’re playing a pure assault list vs a T’au gunline. The game isn’t going to be “fair” or “balanced”, but, it doesn’t mean you should then be allowed additional advantages over your opponent because of your list.

Planning and preparing your list to work within the set format of the event, is (as much as some people don’t think it is) part of the event itself. If you fail to prepare or put yourself in a position to succeed prior to the event, if you then struggle in the event there is only one person to blame – and it isn’t the ruleset.

Clock switching could become an issue – especially for people unfamiliar with them (myself included), however, I think, with time the majority of people are going to get use to them and will probably have more of a gentlemen’s agreement in the game of “we won’t switch for everything, like smite, if you roll and remove models in a timely fashion”. The moment someone decides they are going to try to take advantage of that agreement, then, the constant switching is there to fall back on. Likewise, if my opponent only has to roll 1 armour save and rolls it as soon as I declare “1 wound”, then I wouldn’t be too concerned with swapping the clock over as it is a pointless waste of time for both players. If they had to walk around the table to pick their favourite die and then roll it around a bit, then, of course that becomes a “switch over” situation. Common sense will eventually dictate how things work in practice for the vast majority of games, regardless of all the “potential this and thats”.

GW had their Heat 1 last weekend. I didn’t catch the streams because of the World Cup, but, looking back the following happened –
Game 1 – Ended after turn 3 (unsure if timed or conceded)
Game 2 – Ended halfway through turn 4
Game 3 – Ended after turn 5
Game 4 – Ended after turn 5 (unsure if timed or conceded)
Game 5 – Ended naturally on turn 6.

Based off that, you could argue that the drop to 1750 points did its job for the games on stream, but, it is just a small sample size and I have no idea how the rest of the event went.

From the OP

Reemule wrote:


5. If a turn ends and both players have less than 10 minutes on the clock, the game ends.

I don't get the point of this rule, anyone have an idea why if two players are playing equally quickly they must dice down 19:59 minutes before the end of the round, seems pretty crazy to me.

Any ideas?

To make sure the game ends at the end of a turn as much as possible, rather than timing out mid-turn.

Of course, since all we have is Reemule's interpretation of the rules and not the rules themselves, it could actually mean "round", which would make more sense.

Still... if you're on round 4, 5, or 6, often times you could easily fit entire battle rounds into 20 minutes, which could massively change the course of the battle.

This rule could rob people of victories just as much as slow play does now.

secretForge wrote:
Still... if you're on round 4, 5, or 6, often times you could easily fit entire battle rounds into 20 minutes, which could massively change the course of the battle.

This rule could rob people of victories just as much as slow play does now.

not having enough time to play a full turn 4 or 5 is the result of playing slow.

And if its my turn, and I see that my opponent has sub 10 min left... Then I can deliberately slow play my turn so that the game auto ends, robbing them of a turn. (not that I would, but if the rule is there, then we have already seen that people will steal entire movement phases from people in event play)

secretForge wrote:
And if its my turn, and I see that my opponent has sub 10 min left... Then I can deliberately slow play my turn so that the game auto ends, robbing them of a turn. (not that I would, but if the rule is there, then we have already seen that people will steal entire movement phases from people in event play)

Realistically this situation is hugely common even if people aren't consciously trying to cheat - it is just an instinct. Like I said - it's all about incentive.

Here is the hypothetical situation chess clocks can address - it's more about justice than the game finishing.
It's turn 4 and the guy that went first is up on objectives but is obviously going to get tabled next turn or have 2 turns of free scoring for the opponent - if the game goes to conclusion he will not win.
He knows that he can't win but he also knows that he can win if his next turn lasts 10 minutes - even though his next turn should take 2 minutes (he only has 3 models left) but that is just enough time to prevent the next turn from even being allowed to take place.

Now IMO it is too much to ask of a person to work harder so his opponent can beat him - it is absolutely an issue of incentive. If a few turns ago he realized that he is going to clock himself and lose automatically - he would have worked harder so he had a chance to win. This is what chess clocks will help with.

What chess clocks wont help with is TFG...
TFG can actually use chess clocks against you with TFG tactics that Marmatag is talking about. The things is - I am convinced that TFG is much less the issue and the issue is really just about not incentivising quick play. So I think we should give chess clocks a try.