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 Galef wrote:
You ignore Morale because there is a strat that everyone has access to do so. Albeit only 1 unit per turn. But armies that have large chaff units often have far more CPs to use for this strat and others.-

No, you don't get to ignore it when the enemy can attack it. If I deal 7 wounds each to three Guardsmen squads, I'm averaging 9 more "kills" unless my opponent spends 2 CP to save 3 Guardsmen. I've done this in practice.

 Galef wrote:

Marines shouldn't die to a single lasgun wound. It should take bigger better weapons to one-shot them
While statistically it takes many lasguns *or equivalent standard weapon*, it can only take 1. I want that to be impossible
-

One very lucky lasgun can kill a marine. That's ok. I don't think there's any reason this has to be impossible. About a 5% chance. Half that in cover.

(that said, a 2+ armor save on heavily armored variants of the Rhino chasis would be great. The Pred and Rhino being in the same durability class means either the Rhino is too heavy or the Pred is too light.)

Bharring wrote:
I know you don't care so much about the fluff, but seriously? Because SM vehicles are so stable and graceful compared to the lumbering behomoths CWE and others operate?

Was giving a crunch preference. I don't care about justifications.

Great, more armor for Xenos to ignore.

Five very lucky boltguns can kill a 3W T4 2+ rerollable on overwatch. That doesn't mean it's likely to happen. I use that exact scenario because I've seen it happen.

A single Lasgun can kill a Marine. A single Marine squad can kill a Landraider in one round of shooting. It's not going to happen, though.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd rather preds got to move and fire with no penalty, and kill shot worked off two preds.

That's a good point. Why don't they have Machine Spirit? Did they not have it in prior editions?

-

Nope, never. The machine spirit thing is very dumb, anyway.

If you're being shot at with weapons that ignore SV2+, well...

How many AP-5 or better weapons are they bringing in your games? Are you sure they're actually playing by the rules?

Plenty of -4, which makes 2+ armor basically useless.

It would most useful against crap like wyverns.

Bharring wrote:
(that said, a 2+ armor save on heavily armored variants of the Rhino chasis would be great. The Pred and Rhino being in the same durability class means either the Rhino is too heavy or the Pred is too light.)

That one is odd to me. I suppose the idea is that they're on the same chassis. It has that one extra wound but that's a tiny difference.

I like that T 8 on the Vindicator though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd rather preds got to move and fire with no penalty, and kill shot worked off two preds.

That's a good point. Why don't they have Machine Spirit? Did they not have it in prior editions?

-

Nope, never. The machine spirit thing is very dumb, anyway.

It was an option in 4th or 5th. Like a 30 point upgrade or something.

Martel732 wrote:
Plenty of -4, which makes 2+ armor basically useless.

Remarkably little. Meltaguns - which are still inferior to plasma, eviscerators - the poor brothers to thunderhammers, and not all that much else in any quantity.

Bharring wrote:
I know you don't care so much about the fluff, but seriously? Because SM vehicles are so stable and graceful compared to the lumbering behomoths CWE and others operate?

Well it's more everyone else gets rules to ignore those penalties as a whole. Dark Eldar get Assault on everything the moment it's thrown on a vehicle. Guard ignore penalties if they move a small amount and get a firing twice bonus. Sicarans can advance and fire at full BS if memory serves me right on their Autocannon. Wave Serpents have mostly Assault weapons and Fire Prisms can reroll everything if you have an another one (which you will because redundancy makes everything more effective) AND they can get a double firing clause as well! Tyrannofexs don't ignore any penalties but they can get a double firing clause too.

The moment the Predator moves an inch, though, it suffers penalties. It's the only Battle Tank basically that doesn't get some double firing clause. It's left out for no real reasons.

Then give your predator a Storm Bolter! Then they can ignore mvoement penalties like CWE?

More seriously, Wave Serpents are Assault weapons because of the penalty. And Shuriken Cannons are the only Assault heavy. Their Lascannon equivelent is still shorter range and Heavy. Falcon Pulse Lasers are heavy. Fire Prisms need to use CP to get the reroll, and need double firepower to still do less than a Pred without stratagems.

So why should quadlas Pred get no penalty, but a BL Serpent, Falcon, or Vyper get the penalty?

"The moment the Predator moves an inch, though, it suffers penalties."
So does any CWE heavy weapon aside from the Shuriken Cannon.

"It's the only Battle Tank basically that doesn't get some double firing clause."
Falcon.
Night Spinner.
Firestorm.
Wasp.
Serpent.

The doublefiring is Guard and Fire Prism. It's not nearly as common as you think.

Preds aren't 'left out for no reason'. Both rules are missing on most platforms. One faction gets that rule, and one tank in one other faction gets half that rule.

A.T. wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Plenty of -4, which makes 2+ armor basically useless.

Remarkably little. Meltaguns - which are still inferior to plasma, eviscerators - the poor brothers to thunderhammers, and not all that much else in any quantity.

From Xenos. Not Imperium.


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Bharring wrote:
Then give your predator a Storm Bolter! Then they can ignore mvoement penalties like CWE?

More seriously, Wave Serpents are Assault weapons because of the penalty. And Shuriken Cannons are the only Assault heavy. Their Lascannon equivelent is still shorter range and Heavy. Falcon Pulse Lasers are heavy. Fire Prisms need to use CP to get the reroll, and need double firepower to still do less than a Pred without stratagems.

So why should quadlas Pred get no penalty, but a BL Serpent, Falcon, or Vyper get the penalty?

"The moment the Predator moves an inch, though, it suffers penalties."
So does any CWE heavy weapon aside from the Shuriken Cannon.

"It's the only Battle Tank basically that doesn't get some double firing clause."
Falcon.
Night Spinner.
Firestorm.
Wasp.
Serpent.

The doublefiring is Guard and Fire Prism. It's not nearly as common as you think.

Preds aren't 'left out for no reason'. Both rules are missing on most platforms. One faction gets that rule, and one tank in one other faction gets half that rule.

Jesus dude. It was just a suggestion to make it a more worthwhile vehicle. Because right now, it sucks balls and has been tossed out of every list I run in favor of Russes.

So... Fusion Guns and Brightlances.

Oh, you meant Dissie DEs, not all other armies?

Bharring wrote:
So... Fusion Guns and Brightlances.

Oh, you meant Dissie DEs, not all other armies?

Dissy is -3. But their jets have a gakload of lances. And cost a pack of skittles.

"Jesus dude. It was just a suggestion to make it a more worthwhile vehicle. Because right now, it sucks balls and has been tossed out of every list I run in favor of Russes."

That particular response was to the idea that Preds are the only tank that don't get those rules. When it's most tanks.

Yes, Russes get great rules. That doesn't mean non-russes have said rules.

Helverins are cheaper and get the same rule. Just sayin'. And have an invuln. And move faster. And have more wounds. And have better guns.

Sicarans don't get that, they only get to ignore modifiers against fly targets. Fireprisms are heavy so do take the penalty to hit for moving so thier is atleast 16.6% of shots they can't reroll. Tau also take the penalty to hit and don't get double shooting.

Not to add fuel to the dumpster fire, but Eldar tanks can be upgraded with "Crystal Targeting Matrix" allowing them to ignore the to hit penalty from moving as long as their target is the closest unit to them. And it's only 5ppm.

You need to call out Eldar players using this if they are not targeting the closest unit, though.

-

Eldar being able to get around most rules is not surprising, nor was it my intending point of comparison.

Some marine vehicle fixes that could help incrementally

Rhino:15-20pt Decrease. Addition of 2 firing ports

Predator: The turret ignores movement penalties. It allows the tank to be mobile instead of stuck in a corner. Killshot strategem changed to gaining +1 to wound if there are 2 preds within 6, and gaining +1 damage if there are 3 preds within 6.

Vindicator: Ignores heavy, Please. Linebreaker Strat changed to d3 MW per vindicator within 6" of each other.

Landraider. All attacks against the landraider are -1 to wound.

Basic Dreadnought Chassis: +2 Movement. Melee dreadnoughts aren't really effective because of the slow footslog.

Drop-pods: Pick one of 3:
Significant point drop
Strategem to allow half of DPs rounding up ignore first turn reserves rule
Units may use to 3" disembark to be inside the 9" reserves bubble

General Vehicle fixes (could be applied to other factions as well)

Defensive Smoke Screen strategem. Choose this strategem at the beginning of the other players first shooting phase if you went second. All vehicles equipped with smoke launchers may use them. This does expend one use Smoke launchers

Non-flying vehicles get some bonus to melee attacks if they charge. Possibly an increase to hit or damaging leadership of the units that they charged.

Vilehydra wrote:
Some marine vehicle fixes that could help incrementally

Rhino:15-20pt Decrease. Addition of 2 firing ports

Rhinos are already pretty durable for their points both changes would be too far one or other not both

Vilehydra wrote:

Predator: The turret ignores movement penalties. It allows the tank to be mobile instead of stuck in a corner. Killshot strategem changed to gaining +1 to wound if there are 2 preds within 6, and gaining +1 damage if there are 3 preds within 6.

Nope on the turret changes its just making everything the same and bland.
Kill shot as is is unusable, yours could work.

Vilehydra wrote:

Vindicator: Ignores heavy, Please. Linebreaker Strat changed to d3 MW per vindicator within 6" of each other.

The linebreaker stratageum just staight up doesn't work. Mw to units for why? Against fortifications fine but fliers and infantry makes no sence.
Blast weapons don't work but the minus to hit should stay IMHO and blast weaposn made to work in 8th.

Vilehydra wrote:

Landraider. All attacks against the landraider are -1 to wound.

That would break one of GW's fundamentals of 8th as anything less than s4 can't wound a Landraider. T9 does a similar job will not breaking things.

Vilehydra wrote:

Basic Dreadnought Chassis: +2 Movement. Melee dreadnoughts aren't really effective because of the slow footslog.

could go either way on this, however balancing this for choas hellbrutes etc is going to be a challange.

Vilehydra wrote:

Drop-pods: Pick one of 3:
Significant point drop
Strategem to allow half of DPs rounding up ignore first turn reserves rule
Units may use to 3" disembark to be inside the 9" reserves bubble

1 I can see why you might say this but your also untouchable untill you deploy its balancing that trade-off, without turn 1 deepstrike it's over costed but probably not by as much as some people think
2 nope thats just bringing in the equivalent of skyhammer formation BS from 7th

Vilehydra wrote:

General Vehicle fixes (could be applied to other factions as well)

Defensive Smoke Screen strategem. Choose this strategem at the beginning of the other players first shooting phase if you went second. All vehicles equipped with smoke launchers may use them. This does expend one use Smoke launchers

I get what your trying to do but this isn't as balnced as you might think. With end game scoring etc this is another reason for people to want to go second people will just delay untill turn 2 for a massive strike with deepstrike aswell.

Vilehydra wrote:

Non-flying vehicles get some bonus to melee attacks if they charge. Possibly an increase to hit or damaging leadership of the units that they charged.

Why vehicals without melee weapons shouldn't be charging eveything in sight?

Bharring wrote:
Then give your predator a Storm Bolter! Then they can ignore mvoement penalties like CWE?

More seriously, Wave Serpents are Assault weapons because of the penalty. And Shuriken Cannons are the only Assault heavy. Their Lascannon equivelent is still shorter range and Heavy. Falcon Pulse Lasers are heavy. Fire Prisms need to use CP to get the reroll, and need double firepower to still do less than a Pred without stratagems.

So why should quadlas Pred get no penalty, but a BL Serpent, Falcon, or Vyper get the penalty?

"The moment the Predator moves an inch, though, it suffers penalties."
So does any CWE heavy weapon aside from the Shuriken Cannon.

"It's the only Battle Tank basically that doesn't get some double firing clause."
Falcon.
Night Spinner.
Firestorm.
Wasp.
Serpent.

The doublefiring is Guard and Fire Prism. It's not nearly as common as you think.

Preds aren't 'left out for no reason'. Both rules are missing on most platforms. One faction gets that rule, and one tank in one other faction gets half that rule.

Which of those things you listed are actually a battle tank role? The moment you said "Serpent" I felt like you were just listing random units.

Falcon certainly does. It also has a transport cap of 6, but does that in addition to being an MBT.

The Hammerhead is an MBT. Does it have the double-firing rule now?

The Landraider is an MBT+. Did I miss it getting the double-firing rule?

The others are debateable, sure. I have trouble not calling the Serpent an MBT.

If you mean "MBT that don't also have transport cap, and not Tank Destroyers/mechanized artillery" then what MBTs are actually in the game? Just the Russ and the Pred? So 1 of 2 doesn't have a rule? How is that special?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

Bharring wrote:
Then give your predator a Storm Bolter! Then they can ignore mvoement penalties like CWE?

More seriously, Wave Serpents are Assault weapons because of the penalty. And Shuriken Cannons are the only Assault heavy. Their Lascannon equivelent is still shorter range and Heavy. Falcon Pulse Lasers are heavy. Fire Prisms need to use CP to get the reroll, and need double firepower to still do less than a Pred without stratagems.

So why should quadlas Pred get no penalty, but a BL Serpent, Falcon, or Vyper get the penalty?

"The moment the Predator moves an inch, though, it suffers penalties."
So does any CWE heavy weapon aside from the Shuriken Cannon.

"It's the only Battle Tank basically that doesn't get some double firing clause."
Falcon.
Night Spinner.
Firestorm.
Wasp.
Serpent.

The doublefiring is Guard and Fire Prism. It's not nearly as common as you think.

Preds aren't 'left out for no reason'. Both rules are missing on most platforms. One faction gets that rule, and one tank in one other faction gets half that rule.

Which of those things you listed are actually a battle tank role? The moment you said "Serpent" I felt like you were just listing random units.

For decades the Eldar Grav-tanks have been described as....tanks. Serpents included. Falcons, Spinners, Prims, etc all fill the "battle tank" role, but Serpents end up being better AND have transport capacity.
At the end of the day, Serpents have always been closer to LRs than Razorbacks, both of which are "battle tanks"

-

Bharring wrote:
Falcon certainly does. It also has a transport cap of 6, but does that in addition to being an MBT.

The Hammerhead is an MBT. Does it have the double-firing rule now?

The Landraider is an MBT+. Did I miss it getting the double-firing rule?

The others are debateable, sure. I have trouble not calling the Serpent an MBT.

If you mean "MBT that don't also have transport cap, and not Tank Destroyers/mechanized artillery" then what MBTs are actually in the game? Just the Russ and the Pred? So 1 of 2 doesn't have a rule? How is that special?

The Land Raider is NOT an mbt, it is a heavy assult tank for heavy assult units. At 300+ pts it is also massively overpriced.
Hammerhead has Fly, that alone makes it more viable then predators. Also markerlights.
Ork battlewagons can be mbt technically but more often are used as assult tanks ( but so overpriced it hurts)
Td's are also not really in the game, the only Td is the vanquisher, which is useless. (except fw)

Technically you could categorise the defiler as a MBW.
Practically it is still tad to pricy and the terrible accuracy makes it generally a meh choice.



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 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

Bharring wrote:
Then give your predator a Storm Bolter! Then they can ignore mvoement penalties like CWE?

More seriously, Wave Serpents are Assault weapons because of the penalty. And Shuriken Cannons are the only Assault heavy. Their Lascannon equivelent is still shorter range and Heavy. Falcon Pulse Lasers are heavy. Fire Prisms need to use CP to get the reroll, and need double firepower to still do less than a Pred without stratagems.

So why should quadlas Pred get no penalty, but a BL Serpent, Falcon, or Vyper get the penalty?

"The moment the Predator moves an inch, though, it suffers penalties."
So does any CWE heavy weapon aside from the Shuriken Cannon.

"It's the only Battle Tank basically that doesn't get some double firing clause."
Falcon.
Night Spinner.
Firestorm.
Wasp.
Serpent.

The doublefiring is Guard and Fire Prism. It's not nearly as common as you think.

Preds aren't 'left out for no reason'. Both rules are missing on most platforms. One faction gets that rule, and one tank in one other faction gets half that rule.

Which of those things you listed are actually a battle tank role? The moment you said "Serpent" I felt like you were just listing random units.

For decades the Eldar Grav-tanks have been described as....tanks. Serpents included. Falcons, Spinners, Prims, etc all fill the "battle tank" role, but Serpents end up being better AND have transport capacity.
At the end of the day, Serpents have always been closer to LRs than Razorbacks, both of which are "battle tanks"

-

Razorback is like a chimera a ifv.

Bharring wrote:
Falcon certainly does. It also has a transport cap of 6, but does that in addition to being an MBT.

The Hammerhead is an MBT. Does it have the double-firing rule now?

The Landraider is an MBT+. Did I miss it getting the double-firing rule?

The others are debateable, sure. I have trouble not calling the Serpent an MBT.

If you mean "MBT that don't also have transport cap, and not Tank Destroyers/mechanized artillery" then what MBTs are actually in the game? Just the Russ and the Pred? So 1 of 2 doesn't have a rule? How is that special?

I think the Hammerhead is the only other exception.
Otherwise, the Land Raider is supposed to a premium transport that's durable and has lots of guns. It just fails spectacularly at that.

Also the Wave Serpent was just mathematically better at fighting, but that didn't make it a battle tank in the same way the current Razorback shouldn't BE acting like a battle tank but ends up doing so because of its cost relatively to its guns.

If that makes sense. I think that's coherent enough.

Rhinos really aren't that durable. Special weapons that can pop T7 3++ are ubiquitous, and while they are more durable then most people realize they simply aren't worth the cost. I've been experimenting with them, and sinking 222 points into units that don't heavily contribute to the fight isn't worth it.

Allowing the turrets to ignore the heavy penalty would do the opposite of making things bland because it allows for the marine player to be mobile, instead of forcing them to castle.

And when was the last time you saw a vindicator in play? They are an under performing unit that can't perform it's only task of bringing a heavy weapon to bear effectively. Its d3 shot (upgraded to d6 when the target has 5 or more models), a -1 to hit is kind of intolerable at that low level of shots when it is it's only gun (asides from a SB)

The drop pod is significantly overcosted. I understand the value of keeping units in reserve, but compared to both internal and external options it is way to high. For example, 5 jumpack vanguard with 5 plasma pistols cost 125 pts. 5 Tactical Marines with a plasma gun and combi-plas in a drop pod cost 173. So for 1 less plasma shot, 6 more bolter shots, 6 inches less movement, 1 lower LD, and 6" less movement, you get 8 T6 3+ wounds with a single SB. Another example is how several other factions simply spend CP to put stuff in reserve. Depending on how you build your army CP can be extremely expendable compared to points.

As for Skyhammer, that was last edition. This edition is so radically different with deepstrike that they aren't super comparable. Starting from the fact that all units can assault from deepstrike, all units no longer scatter, and units must still stay 9" away it would be a far cry from skyhammer. The units inside aren't relentless, cannot deny overwatch, and do not get to reroll charges. Because that's what skyhammer actually did. Drop pods could deploy half rounding up first turn since 5th edition. Long before skyhammer.

Players delaying for turn 2 is great. A major problem with this edition, (mostly due to the changes in cover) is alpha-striking before the other player has had the chance to maneuver, pop smoke, and apply defensive buffs. Several games are simply determined by who goes first, which isn't fun or engaging. Simply popping smoke isn't going to completely mitigate the opposing players shooting either. The first player still gets to determine where most of the engagements are going to occur and the tempo for most of the game, but the shooting is degraded slightly.

Why should vehicles without fly be able to charge enemy vehicles, denying a turn of shooting, and then leave without consequence? Giving vehicles a tangible benefit to charging rewards controlling the flow of engagement instead of being put on the back foot the entire time. I should also clarify, this would essentially be 8th eds version of tank shock. So it would probably require it to be vehicles at 10+ wounds w/o fly.

I wasn't necessarily saying that the Hammerhead isn't viable compared to the Pred. My point is that the Pred is not the *only* MBT that doesn't have the rule.

Unless you consider the Ravager an MBT (I wouldn't call it a tank), isn't the Russ the only one with the rule?

Even the Fire Prism, which has half the rule (fire twice, not ignore the penalty) isn't an MBT. It's a tank destroyer/mechanised artillery hybrid.

I agree that the Chimera, Razorback, and potentially the Devilfish are IFV, not MBTs.

The Serpent feels too heavy to be considered an IFV. I consider it an MBT, but could accept it's exclusion. It's not simply "better at fighting" It's built as a tank, for battle, but with an extended cab for transport.

So a conservative list of MBTs would include:
-Russes
-Predators
-Hammerheads
-Falcons

Of which, only 1 of the 4 has the rule. The claim is that the Pred is the *only* MBT without the rule. That seems

Not Online!!! wrote:

The Land Raider is NOT an mbt, it is a heavy assult tank for heavy assult units. At 300+ pts it is also massively overpriced.

It's totally an MBT if you've ever played Epic.

Guess the point was more moving and shooting without penalty for that.
Eldar can upgrade their tanks, LRBT have grinding advance, hammerheads have markerlights support.
The predator has nothing in that regard. Frankly it does not need double shooting, what it needs is a ignore movement penalty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

The Land Raider is NOT an mbt, it is a heavy assult tank for heavy assult units. At 300+ pts it is also massively overpriced.

It's totally an MBT if you've ever played Epic.

No.
A Mbt is a general purpose direct fire support tank.
A Land Raider serves as a assult tank against massively entrenched positions and delivers it's payload of terminators. Aka a assult tank.