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"but you can fix 10+ units by fixing one. "
And relegate half of the units in 10+ books to the trash, at the same time!

I think my post didn't do justice to the claim being made. I'll update it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rewritten, to be more fair.

The rules fixes should allow Marines to win if they can utilize their army to feel like Marines. If the Marine player fails to do so, their force should fail.

This is where we disagree:
-You (and others) feel that "Play like Marines" should mean dealing with other Infantry by going toe-to-toe with them with Tacs.
-I (and others) feel that "Play like Marines" means not engaging head-to head, but rather use force concentration and combined arms to control the matchup and flow.

Bharring wrote:
"but you can fix 10+ units by fixing one. "
And relegate half of the units in 10+ books to the trash, at the same time!

I think my post didn't do justice to the claim being made. I'll update it.

They wouldn't be trash. That's what you are not understanding. Xeno troops and IG troops should NOT be there to fight marine troops. That's what their heavies and elites are for. Against marines, those lists should be relying on those slots to carry the day. Because they can't matchup against what should be the strongest troops.

Think of it this way on a rating scale of 1-10.

Marines would have say

Troops: 10
FA: 4
Heavy : 3
Elite: 6
HQ: 6

Eldar would have say

Troops: 3
FA: 7
Heavy : 7
Elite: 9
HQ: 10

for overall slot ratings. I don't even think that adds up. But is that more clear?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
"but you can fix 10+ units by fixing one. "
And relegate half of the units in 10+ books to the trash, at the same time!

I think my post didn't do justice to the claim being made. I'll update it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rewritten, to be more fair.

The rules fixes should allow Marines to win if they can utilize their army to feel like Marines. If the Marine player fails to do so, their force should fail.

This is where we disagree:
-You (and others) feel that "Play like Marines" should mean dealing with other Infantry by going toe-to-toe with them with Tacs.
-I (and others) feel that "Play like Marines" means not engaging head-to head, but rather use force concentration and combined arms to control the matchup and flow.

Marines have no tools to do what you describe. You'd have to shoehorn them in. They can't control anything when 85% of the codex isn't a threat to anything.

But yes, Tacs should be completely curb stomping other troops, and then take heavy losses vs the elites and heavies. Marines should NOT need to rely on combined arms against enemy troops.

I get what you're saying, but I strongly disagree.

Troops shouldn't just be a 'tax' slot. Ideally, it's what each faction would use to put weight of boots on the ground. Each Troop unit should have a purpose or use.

Some factions should be a little stronger in some areas than others. But it shouldn't be "This is the Troop faction" vs "This is the HS faction".

To your point, a Guardian warhost shouldn't be engaging Marines with Guardians themselves (and already can't, on a large scale). It's the other slots that should be engaging Marines. On the other hand, *in the same book*, Dire Avengers should be there to handle Tac Marines for a Swordwind army. But those DAs shouldn't handle ASM or Devs, or vehicles of any kind.

Necron Warriors are another Troop that Marines shouldn't trump. The archetypical Necron list - Silver Tide - is mostly Troops. Their lists rarely have weapons with > 24" range. They do have a few tricks and units that can engage Tacs, but Silver Tide doesn't include many of them. Should they autolose to Marines?

I think the marine should be THE troop faction. Period. I think that would fix a lot of problems that have been plaguing them for a long time.

Make Necron troops similarly powered to marines, then. I kind of forgot about them.

Troops have been taxes for a long time, but xenos (not Eldar so much) and IG have always had access to very cheap options.

I don't think dire avengers should be able to handle marines. Sorry. I think that the Eldar are stomping them in too many other areas for that to be tenable. Eldar should be relying on star cannons and such to remove marines effectively. Dire avengers would be death against say, termagants. That would be their job. Against marines, they just slow them down as best they can, and wait for the star cannons to whittle. Effectively, faster guardsmen vs marines.

I'd also like to point out that GW has been doing it your way for decades and has never really gotten it right. This mess is further complicated by those willing to accept power armor horde and those not.

Martel732 wrote:
Marines would have say

Troops: 10
FA: 4
Heavy : 3
Elite: 6
HQ: 6

For that to work you would need two very important changes -

1) A requirement or penalty for not having a mix of all those slots. For instance your example marines should struggle due to poor heavy support, but struggle _more_ if they took troops in preference to any support.

2) No allies, or you just take the 10 rated marine troops with the 10 rated guard heavy weapons and so on.

A.T. wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines would have say

Troops: 10
FA: 4
Heavy : 3
Elite: 6
HQ: 6

For that to work you would need two very important changes -

1) A requirement or penalty for not having a mix of all those slots. For instance your example marines should struggle due to poor heavy support, but struggle _more_ if they took troops in preference to any support.

2) No allies, or you just take the 10 rated marine troops with the 10 rated guard heavy weapons and so on.

Yeah, there's a lot problems to unpack here. This was just my "vision" of how they would work as a force.

Bharring wrote:
So one of your arguments is that they use an Order to have the remains of a squad that ran away shoot at you instead of having something else FRFSRF? Isn't that a good thing? The Order isn't any more free than SM HQs or CP or rules.

The order isn't anymore free. Absolutely. It all sounds great.

So here's another question: how many points is that dude issuing Orders?

Minimum Tactical Squad and a Captain is considerably less points than two Infantry squads and an Officer to the point those two Infantry squads can get weapon upgrades!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
"but you can fix 10+ units by fixing one. "
And relegate half of the units in 10+ books to the trash, at the same time!

Half of fixing the codices would be consolidating Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Renegades into the Vanilla codex actually. They each have tools that are exclusive for no good reason other than to sell codices. It's as though they think no Dark Angels successor ever got Thunderfire Cannons. Ever ever.

It's really stupid.

Martel,
What you're describing is basically asking for bad Dire Avengers, but Marine-slaughtering Reapers and Spears. Why would that be better?

Bharring wrote:
Martel,
What you're describing is basically asking for bad Dire Avengers, but Marine-slaughtering Reapers and Spears. Why would that be better?

First off, you've already got the latter. Making marines better than other troops gives them some kind of quantifiable niche that can be designed around.

Or, as the above poster pointed out, maybe not. But at least they provided a crunch reason why this might not work.

Basically, despite your claims that you understand marines are quite weak, you seem to want to keep them trash to keep up Eldar sanctity. That's how it seems from here. Marines can't be better than any part of your army. That seems like a big problem to me, when Eldar are already better in every slot compared to marines.

Conversely, it seems you want all armies to have units - units they must take, even - that can't be better than Marines in any way.

There is a difference, though. You're asking for all armies to have units that can't beat Marines in any way. I'm asking for Marines to have ways to win, while also having ways to lose.

Bharring wrote:
Conversely, it seems you want all armies to have units - units they must take, even - that can't be better than Marines in any way.

There is a difference, though. You're asking for all armies to have units that can't beat Marines in any way. I'm asking for Marines to have ways to win, while also having ways to lose.

There would still be a ton of ways to lose. For example, it's unlikely that Drukhari would be affected by this paradigm at all, since their troops' actual stats rarely matter. No, the real problems were pointed out above. Marine killing weapons would still be worth their weight in gold and probably be spammed out the ass as usual.

I'm really asking for the best troop to be marines instead of guardsmen. Given how many other duds there are for marines, I don't think this is a crazy thing. But, I know, your dire avengers need their pound of flesh.

Bharring wrote:
Martel,
What you're describing is basically asking for bad Dire Avengers, but Marine-slaughtering Reapers and Spears. Why would that be better?

Avengers are in kind of a weird spot. I think they probably should be in for consideration for a 3 shot catapult AND cost 9-10 points. Trust me - I pay the dire avenger tax every game I play with eldar and I am not happy about them sucking as hard as they do ether.

Martel is correct though - DA sucking does not effect eldar in the same way. They are a crappy tax unit but at the very least they provide some mobile firepower and can hurt things with ap-3 while still being reasonably cheap with a pretty decent threat range. Plus - the only reason the can be fielded at all is because a wave serpent is a beautiful vehicle (practically indestructable for it's cost) So DA are safe until you need them (which might be never because you are eldar).

Again^ see my proposed buff for them. See that I am fair across the board with all armies (except with space wolves - feth them). Not some marine fan boy that wants marines to be auto win. What I want is a level playing field - as quickly as possible.

The base marine sucking basically ensures the entire codex is going to suck too. And - they really do suck.

I've seen many top tier Eldar lists with zero troops. That was before the FAQ. Would that change that choice?

What about Ork Boyz? Why should you be stomping green tide automatically?

Silver Tide?

Harlequins?

Should Tau be Suits or GTFO?

There are lots of troop-based armies that, thematically, use troops to do their heavy lifting. If Tacs are straight-up superior, how can they stay in the game? Or should those options just be dropped?

"If Tacs are straight-up superior, how can they stay in the game?"

Use their other slots. Like marines do now.

3 scouts
3 BA captains

You think the scouts are actually doing anything there? Except they cost 11 ppm, not 4 ppm.

Why should armies pay a fraction of the cost of a marine and stomp THEM into the pavement?

I don't think base Orks should fare well vs marines. Nor base firewarriors.

Harlequins are more correctly an army of elites.

I'd put necrons in the same bin as marines, yes. Maybe even a little stronger, actually, since their tech is so much better.

3-shot DAs at 10ppm would be OP. I'm not sure they need help. At least, not until you unleash 15ppm 2w Marines for half the factions.

Why drop so many points across the board so much? Wouldn't it be better to bump Guardsmen to 5, with minor bumps to Kabs and Fire Warriors too?

Bharring wrote:
3-shot DAs at 10ppm would be OP. I'm not sure they need help. At least, not until you unleash 15ppm 2w Marines for half the factions.

Why drop so many points across the board so much? Wouldn't it be better to bump Guardsmen to 5, with minor bumps to Kabs and Fire Warriors too?

There's still sisters. There's still skitarri. There's still Orks. And so forth.

Nerfing everything down to where tacs are even an "okay" unit would be a massive undertaking.

What hes saying is - the army that should be strongest just spamming their troop options should be marines. I think he would probably agree that

Ork's
Necrons
and Harliquens should have similarly strong troop builds.

Would buffing everything to Guardsmen level be easier?

Unlikely.

There are a surprising number of units in the rules who are on the same level as Marines. There are only a handful of units in the rules on the same level as Guardsmen.

Bharring wrote:
3-shot DAs at 10ppm would be OP. I'm not sure they need help. At least, not until you unleash 15ppm 2w Marines for half the factions.

Why drop so many points across the board so much? Wouldn't it be better to bump Guardsmen to 5, with minor bumps to Kabs and Fire Warriors too?

I am on the 10 point marine now. Because it is the most likely fix to happen.

I just don't think Marines should need to be able to stomp other forces head-to-head to win games.

Let me try to turn the table to get my point across.

If Guardians take on Marines, head to head, they should (and do) lose. But Guardians can win against Marines. They are faster, and can use force concentration to overcome the Marines.

That's what I want to see when Marines go up against Guardsmen. Head-to-head, it shouldn't go well. But they should use their elite capabilities to fight in other ways. If they spread out, consolidate on a flank. If they bunch up, take other parts of the board. Don't take them head on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"I am on the 10 point marine now. Because it is the most likely fix to happen."

I'm fairly sure the consensus has been anything cheaper than 11ppm would be too far, even without changes. I highly doubt we'll see Marines at 10ppm soon.

Bharring wrote:
Would buffing everything to Guardsmen level be easier?

Unlikely.

There are a surprising number of units in the rules who are on the same level as Marines. There are only a handful of units in the rules on the same level as Guardsmen.

I disagree. I think there are a lot of units above marines and below geq. The pricetag is just a killer. And it gets paid over and over. You're saying there's a lot of units that assault marines are effective agsinst? Hell, after the faq, dc aren't even effective anymore!

In 8th ed, it is simply not viable to give up a minimum of 13 points per failed 3+ save. Usually the squad average is MUCH higher after gear.

Same could be said about almost any codex.

"You're saying there's a lot of units that Storm Guardians are effective against?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"below geq"
Guardsmen and Kabs are only two examples of GEQ. There are many, many more that aren't at that level. They are some below even Marines.

Which ones are below marines?

Bharring wrote:
I just don't think Marines should need to be able to stomp other forces head-to-head to win games.

Let me try to turn the table to get my point across.

If Guardians take on Marines, head to head, they should (and do) lose. But Guardians can win against Marines. They are faster, and can use force concentration to overcome the Marines.

That's what I want to see when Marines go up against Guardsmen. Head-to-head, it shouldn't go well. But they should use their elite capabilities to fight in other ways. If they spread out, consolidate on a flank. If they bunch up, take other parts of the board. Don't take them head on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"I am on the 10 point marine now. Because it is the most likely fix to happen."

I'm fairly sure the consensus has been anything cheaper than 11ppm would be too far, even without changes. I highly doubt we'll see Marines at 10ppm soon.

There isn't a single situation where marines would beat gardians.

Gardians have automatic first strike by ether being in a serpant or deep strike for a cp. Marines can't do that with buying an 80 point drop pod *the cost of 10 gardians. When you drop 40 shuriken cats on a 10 man tac it just dies with any amount of support - jinx = goodby squad - doom = goodby squad. 10 marines kill 8 guardians with reroll all hits.

Marines with boltguns should win a fight against Guard with lasguns. Why? Because boltguns and lasguns are anti-infantry weapons, low strength no AP. But the Marines are heavy infantry and should be vulnerable to special/heavy weapons (which they currently are too). Autocannons and plasma don't care about your 2W (if that's what you go for)

Another point, the standard tactical squad would feel much more flexible if it could operate solo and beat it's intended target. It's when FRFSRF, Volley Fire etc... come in that the other infantry outperform the tacs.

Also, I noticed some objections to 2W marines because of necrons and orks being 1W, and honestly, giving those factions 2W would be pretty cool I think. 2W Boyz and 3W Nobz (Ogryns are 3W so whats the holdup here?) 2W Necron Warriors and 3W Lychguard. Sounds good to me.

Bharring wrote:
Would buffing everything to Guardsmen level be easier?

Unlikely.

There are a surprising number of units in the rules who are on the same level as Marines. There are only a handful of units in the rules on the same level as Guardsmen.

Not in terms of of troops, and on top of that none of those elite choices outside Sisters are actually based entirely on the Troop just being slightly better. Those units actually end up with defined roles.

"Gardians have automatic first strike by ether being in a serpant or deep strike for a cp. "
So paying CP and an opportunity cost or paying 130 for a transport (yes, that transport is nearly worth its points without the Guardians) to ambush the Marines is somehow meeting them head-to-head?

You could argue that it's too easy for Guardians to do this, and I'd agree. Marines can do the same, but the Drop Pod costs way too much, and the Rhino isn't as good as the Serpent.

"with any amount of support"
Really? So if you buy a Farseer and Warlock, deepstrike them too (well, one of them, put the other on a bike and bring a second warlock to let the non-DSer get there, too! totally cheap and not worth counting the points) and CP as needed to ensure the powers get off allow a 160 point unit to do tons of damage to a 130 point unit? What a shocker?

More seriously, Podding in or WWP in or riding up in a transport isn't going head to head. Marines have 24" range. They get the alpha.

Now, you could argue that WWP > Pod and Serpent > Rhino. I'd agree with both of those.

But just straight on the table, go up to eachother and start shooting, Marines get the first and sometimes the second round of shooting, and beat Guardians in a straight head to head.

that is part of the problem - head to head - never happens.

Head to head with Guardsmen happens all the time - so Marines lose.

Head to head with Guardians never happens - so Marines lose.