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Dire Avengers are horribly overpriced for what they bring- even compared to Marines. You just don't notice it as much with Dire Avengers because their performance is bolstered by the myriad of under priced things in the Eldar dex. Especially the Wave Serpent they cruise around in.
Galef wrote: I am starting to feel much better about Marines being cheaper than Dire Avengers or Necron Warriors. Both of those other choices are paying for "gimmicks" that work far more often than Marines' "gimmick" of ATSKNF.
And at 10ppm, Marines would still technically be more expensive than an 8ppm Avenger, who just so happens to have a 4ppm gun.
It also brings a Marine a bit closer to "scale" for a 4ppm Guardsman
So, fingers crossed, Chapter Approved will have massive points reductions for basic MEQs as well as TEQs.
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Necron Warriors aren't paying for any gimmick that works.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I don't understand this statement. At all. RP is a pretty good rule and you have to wipe the unit to completely ignore it. Having to dedicate fire to completely wipe a unit, especially a large one in cover, may take quite a bit. You therefore are dedicating a disproportionate amount to remove their ability to roll RP.
Even if 1 model lives, you get to make RP rolls, often improved by nearby Characters. Each successful roll increases the unit's cost efficiency.
Their other "gimmick" I am referring to is the AP-1 on their basic gun. That can make a pretty big difference in volume.
ATSKNF is a rule Marines pay for that almost NEVER comes into play. Necrons Warriors have 2 "gimmicks" that come into play just about every single game, as do Dire Avengers.
I don't understand this statement. At all. RP is a pretty good rule and you have to wipe the unit to completely ignore it. Having to dedicate fire to completely wipe a unit, especially a large one in cover, may take quite a bit. You therefore are dedicating a disproportionate amount to remove their ability to roll RP.
Even if 1 model lives, you get to make RP rolls, often improved by nearby Characters. Each successful roll increases the unit's cost efficiency.
Their other "gimmick" I am referring to is the AP-1 on their basic gun. That can make a pretty big difference in volume.
ATSKNF is a rule Marines pay for that almost NEVER comes into play. Necrons Warriors have 2 "gimmicks" that come into play just about every single game, as do Dire Avengers.
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That would be a good point if universal spitfire didn't exist or ones that ran away don't get to try and revive.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I don't understand this statement. At all. RP is a pretty good rule and you have to wipe the unit to completely ignore it. Having to dedicate fire to completely wipe a unit, especially a large one in cover, may take quite a bit. You therefore are dedicating a disproportionate amount to remove their ability to roll RP.
Even if 1 model lives, you get to make RP rolls, often improved by nearby Characters. Each successful roll increases the unit's cost efficiency.
Their other "gimmick" I am referring to is the AP-1 on their basic gun. That can make a pretty big difference in volume.
ATSKNF is a rule Marines pay for that almost NEVER comes into play. Necrons Warriors have 2 "gimmicks" that come into play just about every single game, as do Dire Avengers.
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That would be a good point if universal spitfire didn't exist or ones that ran away don't get to try and revive.
As with all things - you should play it smart. MSU destroyers and immortals/ 1 large unit of warriors. Do not invite multiple leadership tests a turn. FFS you have LD 10. 5 man squads never even have to take a LD test - EVER.
Like seriously. RP is on of the best rules in the game. However - I would have liked to see the resurrection orb have a once per game ability that allowed it to resurrect 1 completely wiped unit. Or a stratagem that costs 3 points.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/23 19:14:04
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I don't understand this statement. At all. RP is a pretty good rule and you have to wipe the unit to completely ignore it. Having to dedicate fire to completely wipe a unit, especially a large one in cover, may take quite a bit. You therefore are dedicating a disproportionate amount to remove their ability to roll RP. Even if 1 model lives, you get to make RP rolls, often improved by nearby Characters. Each successful roll increases the unit's cost efficiency.
Their other "gimmick" I am referring to is the AP-1 on their basic gun. That can make a pretty big difference in volume. ATSKNF is a rule Marines pay for that almost NEVER comes into play. Necrons Warriors have 2 "gimmicks" that come into play just about every single game, as do Dire Avengers.
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That would be a good point if universal spitfire didn't exist or ones that ran away don't get to try and revive.
I'm not really sure how it works in your meta, but if players are consistently removing whole units for Necron Warriors then the owning players are just bad. There should be plenty of ways to prevent this, either by using cover or LoS blocking to keep 1 model out of LOS or using the Strat to prevent losing models to Morale, or even by having a decent list that presents more forward threats to keep the Warriors alive longer. There is also the fact that forcing the opponent to actually wipe the unit to prevent RP can be used to your advantage.
In any case, if whole 20-bot units of Warriors are consistently being removed in 1 turn in your Meta, there is literally no change to Marines that will prevent them from being likewise removed before contributing their value. So it pretty much becomes a moot point, or at the very least the issue has to be taken to another level (like re-evaluating the power to the shooting phase)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/23 19:25:02
I don't understand this statement. At all. RP is a pretty good rule and you have to wipe the unit to completely ignore it. Having to dedicate fire to completely wipe a unit, especially a large one in cover, may take quite a bit. You therefore are dedicating a disproportionate amount to remove their ability to roll RP.
Even if 1 model lives, you get to make RP rolls, often improved by nearby Characters. Each successful roll increases the unit's cost efficiency.
Their other "gimmick" I am referring to is the AP-1 on their basic gun. That can make a pretty big difference in volume.
ATSKNF is a rule Marines pay for that almost NEVER comes into play. Necrons Warriors have 2 "gimmicks" that come into play just about every single game, as do Dire Avengers.
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That would be a good point if universal spitfire didn't exist or ones that ran away don't get to try and revive.
I'm not really sure how it works in your meta, but if players are consistently removing whole units for Necron Warriors then the owning players are just bad. There should be plenty of ways to prevent this, either by using cover or LoS blocking to keep 1 model out of LOS or using the Strat to prevent losing models to Morale, or even by having a decent list that presents more forward threats to keep the Warriors alive longer.
There is also the fact that forcing the opponent to actually wipe the unit to prevent RP can be used to your advantage.
In any case, if whole 20-bot units of Warriors are consistently being removed in 1 turn in your Meta, there is literally no change to Marines that will prevent them from being likewise removed before contributing their value. So it pretty much becomes a moot point, or at the very least the issue has to be taken to another level (like re-evaluating the power to the shooting phase)
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Yeah - I was thinking the exact thing. During a game often I am forced to leave 2-3 models left in a unit that I would like to destroy (because - saving throws and under average dice) Then I am left with a decision. If they are necrons - I have to consider shooting las cannons at that last remaining warrior. Plus - I'd really like to shoot that destroyer too with my las cannon but whats the point? He can just get back up if I kill him. RP does a whole lot more than resurrect units. It forces your opponents target priority - which I am sorry to say it - Target priority is the most important skill in this game.
Making that harder - or taking away choice in target priority is always going to be effective. I'd say as a whole competitively - Necrons are the most UNDER performing army.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I don't understand this statement. At all. RP is a pretty good rule and you have to wipe the unit to completely ignore it. Having to dedicate fire to completely wipe a unit, especially a large one in cover, may take quite a bit. You therefore are dedicating a disproportionate amount to remove their ability to roll RP.
Even if 1 model lives, you get to make RP rolls, often improved by nearby Characters. Each successful roll increases the unit's cost efficiency.
Their other "gimmick" I am referring to is the AP-1 on their basic gun. That can make a pretty big difference in volume.
ATSKNF is a rule Marines pay for that almost NEVER comes into play. Necrons Warriors have 2 "gimmicks" that come into play just about every single game, as do Dire Avengers.
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That would be a good point if universal spitfire didn't exist or ones that ran away don't get to try and revive.
As with all things - you should play it smart. MSU destroyers and immortals/ 1 large unit of warriors. Do not invite multiple leadership tests a turn. FFS you have LD 10. 5 man squads never even have to take a LD test - EVER.
Like seriously. RP is on of the best rules in the game. However - I would have liked to see the resurrection orb have a once per game ability that allowed it to resurrect 1 completely wiped unit. Or a stratagem that costs 3 points.
You either build to get the most RP back (which means large squads) or your 5 man squad dies. You remember you guys complaining that 5 Tactical Marines aren't hard to shift? Try those Tactical Marines being 17 points instead.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I don't understand this statement. At all. RP is a pretty good rule and you have to wipe the unit to completely ignore it. Having to dedicate fire to completely wipe a unit, especially a large one in cover, may take quite a bit. You therefore are dedicating a disproportionate amount to remove their ability to roll RP.
Even if 1 model lives, you get to make RP rolls, often improved by nearby Characters. Each successful roll increases the unit's cost efficiency.
Their other "gimmick" I am referring to is the AP-1 on their basic gun. That can make a pretty big difference in volume.
ATSKNF is a rule Marines pay for that almost NEVER comes into play. Necrons Warriors have 2 "gimmicks" that come into play just about every single game, as do Dire Avengers.
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That would be a good point if universal spitfire didn't exist or ones that ran away don't get to try and revive.
As with all things - you should play it smart. MSU destroyers and immortals/ 1 large unit of warriors. Do not invite multiple leadership tests a turn. FFS you have LD 10. 5 man squads never even have to take a LD test - EVER.
Like seriously. RP is on of the best rules in the game. However - I would have liked to see the resurrection orb have a once per game ability that allowed it to resurrect 1 completely wiped unit. Or a stratagem that costs 3 points.
You either build to get the most RP back (which means large squads) or your 5 man squad dies. You remember you guys complaining that 5 Tactical Marines aren't hard to shift? Try those Tactical Marines being 17 points instead.
You should take a mixture. Give opponent choices. Shoot my big squad or shoot my 2 5 mans. Again I am not an expert at Necrons - saying that RP is useless need to be called out though. If my hellblasters had a rule like that - they would be almost unstoppable.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You remember you guys complaining that 5 Tactical Marines aren't hard to shift? Try those Tactical Marines being 17 points instead.
Agreed, however it is important to know that those five 17ppm models end up being cheaper AND more effective than five 13ppm Marines. Because no one is taking just 5 Marines. You either take them with 2 Plasmas or 1 Heavy weapon. In either case they are more expensive (barring a Heavy Bolter) than 5 Immortals, but each Immortal have a S5 gun that is either AP-2 or gets extra hits on 6s. So while I agree that Immortals don't get too much use out of RP, they are still be better Troop than Marines
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/23 20:10:54
I don't understand this statement. At all. RP is a pretty good rule and you have to wipe the unit to completely ignore it. Having to dedicate fire to completely wipe a unit, especially a large one in cover, may take quite a bit. You therefore are dedicating a disproportionate amount to remove their ability to roll RP.
Even if 1 model lives, you get to make RP rolls, often improved by nearby Characters. Each successful roll increases the unit's cost efficiency.
Their other "gimmick" I am referring to is the AP-1 on their basic gun. That can make a pretty big difference in volume.
ATSKNF is a rule Marines pay for that almost NEVER comes into play. Necrons Warriors have 2 "gimmicks" that come into play just about every single game, as do Dire Avengers.
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That would be a good point if universal spitfire didn't exist or ones that ran away don't get to try and revive.
As with all things - you should play it smart. MSU destroyers and immortals/ 1 large unit of warriors. Do not invite multiple leadership tests a turn. FFS you have LD 10. 5 man squads never even have to take a LD test - EVER.
Like seriously. RP is on of the best rules in the game. However - I would have liked to see the resurrection orb have a once per game ability that allowed it to resurrect 1 completely wiped unit. Or a stratagem that costs 3 points.
You either build to get the most RP back (which means large squads) or your 5 man squad dies. You remember you guys complaining that 5 Tactical Marines aren't hard to shift? Try those Tactical Marines being 17 points instead.
You should take a mixture. Give opponent choices. Shoot my big squad or shoot my 2 5 mans. Again I am not an expert at Necrons
Therein lies the issue. I'm Necrons primary and Marine variants/AdMech secondary.
I'd like you to go into the Necron thread and gather an understanding of RP.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You remember you guys complaining that 5 Tactical Marines aren't hard to shift? Try those Tactical Marines being 17 points instead.
Agreed, however it is important to know that those five 17ppm models end up being cheaper AND more effective than five 13ppm Marines.
Because no one is taking just 5 Marines. You either take them with 2 Plasmas or 1 Heavy weapon. In either case they are more expensive (barring a Heavy Bolter) than 5 Immortals, but each Immortal have a S5 gun that is either AP-2 or gets extra hits on 6s.
So while I agree that Immortals don't get too much use out of RP, they are still be better Troop than Marines
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Immortals suffer the same problems as marines at almost 150% of the cost. A 3+ save that requires mid range to function *and* also requiring a massive point sink to be effective (Get that overlord / immotekh for Immortals, ~100 extra points per squad), this is exasperated by them also paying for the RP passive that is virtually ignored by any decent player because of splitfire.
Necrons can't afford to have that 'target saturation' - there are complaints of marine costs in this thread - but once again, Necrons are paying for a near useless and reactive only RP passive giving them even less points to play with than a marine player.
There are reasons why the Necron codex is placing worse than Space Marines or Grey Knights.
A great thing to do is to go back to the old format of how space marine squads (tacticals and the like) had reduced costs for special and heavy weapons.
Missle Launchers, Multi-Melta, Heavy Bolters were always free for tactical squad.
And they had reduced costs for the other heavy weapons.
Another thing to consider is just reducing the costs of most of the marines, while allowing you the option to take (optional choice) of taking grenades (krak or frag your choice).
Terminators need cheaper equipment not this crap of paying for every single model's equipment make storm bolters and powerfists and chainfists less expensive or free (storm bolter and powerfists) reducing their costs considerably from 220+ pts
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You remember you guys complaining that 5 Tactical Marines aren't hard to shift? Try those Tactical Marines being 17 points instead.
Agreed, however it is important to know that those five 17ppm models end up being cheaper AND more effective than five 13ppm Marines.
Because no one is taking just 5 Marines. You either take them with 2 Plasmas or 1 Heavy weapon. In either case they are more expensive (barring a Heavy Bolter) than 5 Immortals, but each Immortal have a S5 gun that is either AP-2 or gets extra hits on 6s.
So while I agree that Immortals don't get too much use out of RP, they are still be better Troop than Marines
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Immortals suffer the same problems as marines at almost 150% of the cost. A 3+ save that requires mid range to function *and* also requiring a massive point sink to be effective (Get that overlord / immotekh for Immortals, ~100 extra points per squad), this is exasperated by them also paying for the RP passive that is virtually ignored by any decent player because of splitfire.
Necrons can't afford to have that 'target saturation' - there are complaints of marine costs in this thread - but once again, Necrons are paying for a near useless and reactive only RP passive giving them even less points to play with than a marine player.
There are reasons why the Necron codex is placing worse than Space Marines or Grey Knights.
Indeed, i had recently some small scale matches with a friend that played predominantly Necrons with my R&H traitor guard. (mind you, that is the bootlegversion of guard and i did not soup in some CSM allies). Jesus it was not pretty, at the end i asked him what the prices for his list were, low and behold nearly the whole Codex felt like a CSM codex without cultists and Obliterators and Psykers.
Around 10-20% overpriced for what units could do.
The main problem i saw though that whilest RP thechnically is a massive thing, practically it means nothing because the Warriors are too overcosted. However lower the price of Warriors too much and you have another tide of traitors to deal with. Basically GW in their wisdom boxed their designspace in, way too close, same goes for 2w primaris marines and some other things.
The only saving grace for marines compared to Necrons is the fact that you can Soup, whilest Necrons can't. This is also why Necrons overall perform worse then Marines, mainly because they would need acess to massive ammount of CP's for their good stratagems but don't get acess to them since their troop choices and min taxes are way to high.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/24 08:27:33
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
At any rate, I still think Warriors are on-par with Marines and Immortals are still better. All of them are overpriced, though.
So if Marines go down to 10ppm, Necron Warriors should too and Immortals would likewise need to drop to about 13-14ppm
Models that die and come back at full life - is not something that should happen often. If you get a single destroyer back in a 2000 point game it's already done more for you than most army wide special rules that aren't "Power from pain"
Battle focus....lets talk about a rule that doesn't matter. (might score you 5-6 more hits in a game)
ATSKNF...Utterly useless.
Heres a pretty good one - "for the greater good" - oh what is that...a totally reactive rule that your opponent can avoid just by not charging you. Plus - ive tracked it's effectiveness in games - it kills maybe 50-100 points. About the same as getting a single destroyer back. If you are facing a full assault army it can do really well and do 300-400 points worth of damage BUT RP is the same way. If you are vs a low damage high defense army that struggles to finish off units - you are pretty much in control of that game.
Canticles - this one is pretty good - but it is random. A lot of it's buffs are redundant with your reroll auras - a lot of times you aren't in CC. So really it's a random chance to get +1 armor on your whole army...Yeah - decent but RP is better.
Synapse/shadow in the warp - amazing - always on. Makes you fearless. Draw back - lose synapse and lose control of your guys - this doesn't really produce damage though. It works a lot like RP if you think about it. Wipe out the synapse and then you can make all the little bugs run away and completely invalidate the synapse.
Death to the false emperor - much better than ATSKNF but still not amazing. Worthless vs non imperials - only works in CC.
Some armies don't even get one.
Obviously the best ones are harliquens and dark eldar.
Army wide buffs that produce huge results every game and fundamentally change the way the army plays. I'd rank RP as 3rd or 4th overall the tzeentch armywide buff (+1 invo save) is also really good.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/24 20:09:19
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Battle focus....lets talk about a rule that doesn't matter.
I get what you are saying in general, but I would like to note that I have seen and used Battle Focus to a great degree of success. It is pretty much the only thing Windriders have going for them since their only useful weapons are Assault Fire Dragons also make great use of BF to get within Melta range, or even Metla-bomb range for my Exarch (because she takes the Flamer to be more versatile) Dire Avengers, having 18" range can often use BF to either get in range, or retreat to a better position and still shoot at full BS.
So while BF isn't the most usefull rule, it is far from not mattering. Can't say the same for ATSKNF
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/24 14:34:55
Xenomancers wrote: Battle focus....lets talk about a rule that doesn't matter.
I get what you are saying in general, but I would like to note that I have seen and used Battle Focus to a great degree of success.
It is pretty much the only thing Windriders have going for them since their only useful weapons are Assault
Fire Dragons also make great use of BF to get within Melta range, or even Metla-bomb range for my Exarch (because she takes the Flamer to be more versatile)
Dire Avengers, having 18" range can often use BF to either get in range, or retreat to a better position and still shoot at full BS.
So while BF isn't the most usefull rule, it is far from not mattering. Can't say the same for ATSKNF
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Well - if you really track it - how many 3's do you think you roll a game with advancing units? I try to keep track of this stuff sometimes. It's probably a lot less than you think. A lot of times you are doing it because there is no negative - it might score you 5-6 more hits a game. Nothing spectacular.
True - it's not useless - I exaggerated there a little bit. Fire dragons certainly make the best use out of it. I use it alot on my guardians too.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Is this the relative value in Kill Team only, or is it a preview of what to expect in Chapter Approved? Time will tell.
I actually think this is funny as I have been pushing for a 2W 2A marine that costs about 15ish and boom. 15 point intercessor. I'll be honest I would have preferred marines to cost more and be better then to be cheaper and squish all the different troops into a small window. But if this is the road they are taking then it is what it is.
I'm actually more concerned about the repulsor and the redemptor. The redemptor is just a mess, for 30ish points less I can get a Hellverin or armiger for whichever task and just get a flat out better unit. It either needs a whopping 40 point drop(seeing as it moves less, has no invulns, no special rules), or T8 and probably 20ish point drop or invuln and a point drop
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/29 09:55:42
So the first thing we need to do is make it so that the Codex can operate without Chapter Tactics. If we can agree how to fix the units, we can work on Chapter Tactics and make sure they aren't terribly ridiculous in terms of power. I keep talking about the different fixes I have, and I might as well throw them in a singular post to be picked at. So lemme just begin. Keep in mind that I believe that the Angels codices need to be consolidated into the Vanilla codex, with maybe each Chapter getting 2-3 exclusive generic units and then 2-3 exclusive Strategems. I'm also sure I'm going to forget different units and weapons because it IS a pretty large codex. Even I'm not perfect
Oh and I'm not gonna tackle the Special Characters and FW units for now as I want to focus on a few things at a time. Also do remind me if I forget a unit. Please.
Spoiler:
Universal Fixes:
1. Bolt Weapons either:
. Inflict an additional hit on a 6+ to hit
. Force rerolls of successful saves on a 6+ to wound
2. Grav Cannons are now 24 points
3. Missile Launchers are now 20 points
4. Multi-Meltas are now 22 points OR are now Heavy 2
5. Heavy Flamers are now 14 points and have Ignores Cover
6. Flamers are now 5 points and have Ignores Cover
7. Grav Guns are now 14 points and are Assault 2
8. Melta Guns are now 13 points
9. I don't know how to price Hand Flamers and Inferno Pistols as I don't own the Blood Angels codex, but I'm gonna assume they're probably too expensive. Plasma and Grav Pistols sure are, but by how much?
Librarius Discipline:
Open to suggestions
HQ Choices:
1. Captains seem okay as is.
2. Chaplains appear as bad because we have little incentive to run big squads and our melee units are bad. Price-wise, I don't think they're in a bad spot.
3. Librarians are bumped down to 90 points. The Librarius table NEEDS a rework and I'm open to suggestions.
4. The issues with the Primaris options is that they have literally zero options. How would you guys tackle this issue?
5. Techmarines can use their repairing ability twice if they're within X" of a Servitor maybe? Not sure on this one.
6. Librarian Dreadnoughts are a generic option for all Chapters except Black Templars of course
Troop Choices:
1. Intercessors are 16 points each
. Stalker Bolt Rifles are 1 point each
. Intercessors have Heavy Bolt Pistols standard
2. Scouts seem okay as is
. Camo Cloaks inflict a -1 to hit penalty for range attacks
. Sniper Rifles are 2 points each
3. Tactical Marines are 12 points each
. The Marines still get a choice of either Special or Heavy Weapon at 5 men, the opposite choice at 7 men, and then a choice of either at 10 men
Fast Attack Choices:
1. Assault Marines start at 12 points
. Jump Packs are 2 points each
. Eviscerators are 13 points each
. Repriced Special Pistols will help immensely after the price cuts
2. Bikers are 23 points each
3. Attack Bikes are 30 points each
4. Inceptors are 20 points each
5. Unsure how to tackle Scout Bikers (they're okay as is) and Land Speeders (they need Chapter Tactics and the weapon price reductions)
Elite Choices:
1. Company Veterans are 15 points each
. All Chapters gain the Jump Pack option for their Command Vets
2. Vanguard gain WS2+
3. Sternguard gain BS2+
. Special Issue Bolters are 1 point each
4. All Terminator variants are now WS/BS2+
. Terminator variants are 3 points less
5. Aggressors are fine as is and better with a special rule for their Boltstorm Gauntlet
. Flamestorm Gauntlets cost the same as the Boltstorm Gauntlets and Ignore Cover
6. Reivers gain -1AP on their Combat Knives and an additional shot on their Bolt Carbines
. Sergeants can buy a Power Sword. Seriously. It's ridiculous that they can't already.
7. Assault Centurions gain an additional wound
8. Honour Guard gain an additional attack and can increase their squad size up to 8.
9. Company and Chapter Ancients are fine and are probably the best thing about the codex.
10. The Company and Chapter Champions seem fine as is, but I'm open to hearing fixes for them.
Heavy Support Choices:
1. Devastators start at 9 points each. We revert to old school Legion standards and every member has to take a Heavy Weapon.
2. Hellblasters start at 14 points each
. Hellblasters have Heavy Bolt Pistols standard, and everyone has the option to take Plasma Pistols
3. Thunderfire Cannons are 115 points each
. Thunderfire Cannons use the BS2+ of the Techmarine as long as they have LoS of the targeted unit
4. I'm open to suggestions about Predators (because you folks have several suggestions for them) and the Vindicator (I don't even know where to start) and the AA vehicles.
5. Whirlwinds get maybe a 5 point decrease but that's it. They function fairly okay as is and need Chapter Tactics.
Dedicated Transport Choices:
1. The Cerberus Launcher from the Land Speeder Storm inflicts a -1 to hit penalty against hit units, and those hit units may not fire Overwatch.
2. Rhinos gain two Firing Points; up to two embarked models may fire their weapons
3. Open to suggestions to everything else in this category, including Land Raiders
CHAPTER Specific Units that stay or should be added. Note I wish for as little redundancy as possible, but obviously that'll be hard:
1. Ultramarines
. Tyrannic War Veterans need a serious overhaul
. What other units can be added? They have a Honour Guard looking unit from the Heresy if I recall.
2. Dark Angels
. Deathwing Knights gain that WS/BS2+ and 5 point discount
. Ravenwing Knights gain a 10 point discount and start with the Grenade Launcher standard. Plasma Talons are 5 points for the pair
. Ravenwing Darkshroud is good as is
3. Blood Angels
. Death Company seems to function as is, maybe give a 1 point discount and/or make them immune to Morale tests
. Sanguine Priests gain a 5 point discount
. Sanguine Guard gain an additional attack
4. Black Templars
. Crusader Neophytes and Initiates gain an additional attack. Unsure if Initiates need a point increase because of that, as otherwise they're the same as Scouts stats-wise.
. Units targeting the Emperor's Champion in melee suffer a -1 to hit penalty
5. Iron Hands
. Rules for Ironfathers (the Chaplain/Techmarine/Apothecary...thing they have) and...
. Helfathers (apparently this is an Honour Guard in Terminator armor or something)
. Possibly another Dreadnought HQ to round out the Chaplain and Librarian equivalents?
6. White Scars
. Obviously they should get an Honour Guard equivalent on Bikes for stereotypes of the army. Otherwise what's an additional unit they could get?
7. Imperial Fists
. Honestly I have no idea what they've got unique because I hate the Imperial Fists. Open for suggestions.
8. Raven Guard
. Obviously Mor Deythan Squads can be imported under a more silly Grimdark name. Open to rules for them AND another special unit or two
9. Salamanders
. Pyroclasts can be imported under a more silly Grimdark name as well, and of course more ideas for units will be nice
Probably should've made a whole separate thread for this stuff. Just do know I have ideas for most codices so far.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
3. Tactical Marines are 12 points each . The Marines still get a choice of either Special or Heavy Weapon at 5 men, the opposite choice at 7 men, and then a choice of either at 10 men
I think giving the tactical squads the option of getting a free special weapon and heavy weapon (limited to missile launchers, heavy bolters, and flamers) would add alot of variety to them and also providing players a choice : Do you want tactical squads or the intercessor squads?
Intercessors
Their squad sgt should be able to take, chainswords, power swords, relic blades, combi weapon, and or a mastercrafted bolter.
Blood Angels and Space Wolves only: Each member can take a bolt carbine and a chainsword.
8. Raven Guard . Obviously Mor Deythan Squads can be imported under a more silly Grimdark name. Open to rules for them AND another special unit or two
Remove the roll to hit minus and instead have a "Can you see them?" check, on a roll of +4 you can see them and then you proceed. Currently it is a bit too powerful of a chapter tactic.
Devastators start at 9 points each. We revert to old school Legion standards and every member has to take a Heavy Weapon.
Disagree with this. a full devastator squad should always be between 4 - 5 heavy weapons anymore and its ridiculous.
Heavy Support Choices:
Decrease Cost of Land Raiders by 50 - 70 points in total. As it is currently land raiders are too expensive to be considered worthwhile.
10. The Company and Chapter Champions seem fine as is, but I'm open to hearing fixes for them.
May take anything from the melee weapons category (excluding ranged weapons)
Can take a Primaris Company Champion (similar options +1 wound +1 attack +7 pts)
2. Vanguard gain WS2+
vanguard need a way to ignore overwatch similar to shock grenades on reivers.
Vanguards can be taken as a fast attack choice if taken with jump packs.
3. Sternguard gain BS2+ . Special Issue Bolters are 1 point each
Sternguard need an option to take special ammunition, assault cannons, gattling guns, auto stubbers, and to take more than two special weapons, but no more than 2 heavy weapons per a squad.
Aggressors
Move Aggressors to Heavy Support Choice
Dedicated Transport Choices:
Drop Pods are too expensive and should cost on base 15 - 30 pts (like they used to be). Anymore and they are overcosted.
Primaris troops and heavy troops can take drop pods, storm ravens, and land raiders as transports.
5. Iron Hands
Needs Stronos Rules and armored tank bonuses (to give them an incentive to take more tanks and equipment). while also allowing for special rules for taking iron fathers as an HQ choice which is a mix between a captain and techmarine.
4. Black Templars
Allow Intercessors to be apart of Crusader Squads. Also allowing for command squads to have up to ten members per a squad and name changed to Sword Brethren.
. What other units can be added? They have a Honour Guard looking unit from the Heresy if I recall.
Ultramarines need their old traits.
special characters (normal)
Give all special characters up to par with Captain's if not better. (more of a reason to take them)
Imperial Fists
Bolter Drill may re-roll failed to wound or hit bolt weapons.
Black Templars
May take one Vow:
Deny the Witch : Pyskers suffer -1 to leadership when rolling to cast psychic abilities upon a Black Templar squad.
Suffer not the Xenos to Live : Gain +1 attack when fighting Xenos races
Purge the Mutant the heretic : Gain +2 LD and +1 to rolls to hit when fighting any Chaos or Renegade forces
White Scars
Choose One :
May take bikes as a troop choice
Moonslaker can be given to Korraso Khan
Astartes Trackers : Ignore any penalities to hit from any source.
Salamanders
Choose one:
Vulkan's toughness : All HQ and Elite choices have +1 Toughness
Master Craftsmen : For an additional +2 points to any weapon that weapon gains mastercraft which confers a reroll to hit and wound (You may reroll rerolls!)
Masters of Promethium Flame : +2 range to all flame weapons and +1 damage.
General
And they Shall know no fear, space marines instead of disappearing when failing a morale check may instead retreat and are not removed from the board.
Space Marine Chapter Officers :
At ten points per a captain!
(Can only take one per a detachment) (can only have two in a game) (can only take 1 per every one thousand points)
Master of the Arsenal : Can call down an orbital bombardment or artillery strike on a position which destroys selected cover of an opponent or unit. Collapsed buildings deal STR 1 AP 0 D3 damage to each member of the squad. Automatically hits.
Master of the Watch : Ignores negative hit to roll debuffs to this model and all those attached to the squad.
Master of the First : Elite Infantry Choices can now be taken as troop choices (excluding Aggressors and Terminators), all members wearing terminator armor gain a 6+ Feel No Pain.
Master of the Fleet : May call down an orbital bombardment twice per a game. Deep strikes do not fail within 8 inches of this character.
Master of Recruits : Slow and Steady, all infantry may inflitrate (excluding heavy infantry)
Master of the Honor Guard : Honor guard cost 10 points less and may take relic blades.
Master of the Forge : Terminators may be attached to any infantry squad excluding scouts.
Lord Executioner : May challenge any character. While in combat with that character, a squad attached with the opposing character may not target the Lord Executioner. Once that character has been slain, the lord executioner must declare a new target within d6 range. (Cooldown 1 turn)
Keeper of Relics : All grav weaponry may roll an additional dice when rolling to damage.
(These are meant to be kind of game breaking mostly spit balling)
The whole point is that the masters from 4th and 5th were actually pretty freaking cool, expanding that and adding that to give more flavor to a captain adds alot of customization and allows players to play how they want.
So yes most of these are outright broken. Better to start at a broken point than at a sucky point. Each one is like "Oh Okay, and WHAT?!" I think players want their guys to be good, and giving players the options to choose what specialities for their chapter from a base line is great.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/31 05:56:36
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Universal Fixes:
1. Bolt Weapons either: I'd have to see the math for each one, then dare i say them both together . Inflict an additional hit on a 6+ to hit
. Force rerolls of successful saves on a 6+ to wound
2. Grav Cannons are now 24 pointsI'd say leave them at 28, then maybe reroll wounds against T6 and higher or wounds T6+ on 4s. Might be a bit much though 4. Multi-Meltas are now 22 points OR are now Heavy 2 My vote is for 2 shots 7. Grav Guns are now 14 points and are Assault 2 I'd say just bump it down to 13 so it's inline with the Plasma gun and Melta gun like you want
Librarius Discipline:
1. Veil of time, just slot in warptime and call it a day
2. Might of heroes, just make it affect the entire unit and you have a great power. Maybe bump it to WC 7
3. Psychic Scourge, this one should just be scrapped
4. Fury of the ancients, I've never had much luck with this one so I say scrap it for a power to give a 5++
5. Psychic Fortress, I actually think this one is fine
6. Null Zone, Maybe make it a single unit and either 12" or 18".
HQ Choices:
1. Captains seem okay as is. I think giving these guys 2-3 global cast "orders" to reroll 1s or all for Chapter Masters would, open them up and prevent castling 5. Techmarines can use their repairing ability twice if they're within X" of a Servitor maybe? Not sure on this one. I was thinking of just tacking on the ability to let vehicles reroll random shots or max out damage
Troop Choices:
3. Tactical Marines are 12 points each I am not in favour of cheaper tacs but if kill team means anything we're gonna have 15pt intercessors. I also think that if they do not get the second would then they should ignore 1 point Ap so that all the weapons that didn't affect them before but got buffed to do this. My reasoning is because I assume cover was designed to counter act this but it just ends up gluing your guys to a single location most of the time
Elite Choices:
10. The Company and Chapter Champions seem fine as is, but I'm open to hearing fixes for them.I think in the index they could buy different weapons than a power sword 11. Apothicaries. Probably fine, but maybe a relic to revive on 3+. Points wise they're hit or miss only becasue if you fail that 4+ they cant do anything. Is it also too much to ask for the narthecium in melee?
Heavy Support Choices:
1. Devastators start at 9 points each. We revert to old school Legion standards and every member has to take a Heavy Weapon.I'm mixed on this idea and the hellblaster one too but I'd like to hear your reasoning 2. Hellblasters start at 14 points each
. Hellblasters have Heavy Bolt Pistols standard, and everyone has the option to take Plasma Pistols
Dedicated Transport Choices:.
3. Open to suggestions to everything else in this category, including Land Raiders LR variants just need a drop in points I'd say, this includes the repulsor and the drop pod
My thoughts are in bold and anything that's not there I either agree with or have no opinion on. I was kinda surprised you never touched on Chapter Tactics. While I Have said that I am against cheap marines, and I think simply making them cheap by itself wont do anything, maybe all of these fixes will help as a whole.
Universal Fixes:
1. Bolt Weapons either: I'd have to see the math for each one, then dare i say them both together . Inflict an additional hit on a 6+ to hit
. Force rerolls of successful saves on a 6+ to wound
2. Grav Cannons are now 24 pointsI'd say leave them at 28, then maybe reroll wounds against T6 and higher or wounds T6+ on 4s. Might be a bit much though 4. Multi-Meltas are now 22 points OR are now Heavy 2 My vote is for 2 shots 7. Grav Guns are now 14 points and are Assault 2 I'd say just bump it down to 13 so it's inline with the Plasma gun and Melta gun like you want
Librarius Discipline:
1. Veil of time, just slot in warptime and call it a day
2. Might of heroes, just make it affect the entire unit and you have a great power. Maybe bump it to WC 7
3. Psychic Scourge, this one should just be scrapped
4. Fury of the ancients, I've never had much luck with this one so I say scrap it for a power to give a 5++
5. Psychic Fortress, I actually think this one is fine
6. Null Zone, Maybe make it a single unit and either 12" or 18".
HQ Choices:
1. Captains seem okay as is. I think giving these guys 2-3 global cast "orders" to reroll 1s or all for Chapter Masters would, open them up and prevent castling 5. Techmarines can use their repairing ability twice if they're within X" of a Servitor maybe? Not sure on this one. I was thinking of just tacking on the ability to let vehicles reroll random shots or max out damage
Troop Choices:
3. Tactical Marines are 12 points each I am not in favour of cheaper tacs but if kill team means anything we're gonna have 15pt intercessors. I also think that if they do not get the second would then they should ignore 1 point Ap so that all the weapons that didn't affect them before but got buffed to do this. My reasoning is because I assume cover was designed to counter act this but it just ends up gluing your guys to a single location most of the time
Elite Choices:
10. The Company and Chapter Champions seem fine as is, but I'm open to hearing fixes for them.I think in the index they could buy different weapons than a power sword 11. Apothicaries. Probably fine, but maybe a relic to revive on 3+. Points wise they're hit or miss only becasue if you fail that 4+ they cant do anything. Is it also too much to ask for the narthecium in melee?
Heavy Support Choices:
1. Devastators start at 9 points each. We revert to old school Legion standards and every member has to take a Heavy Weapon.I'm mixed on this idea and the hellblaster one too but I'd like to hear your reasoning 2. Hellblasters start at 14 points each
. Hellblasters have Heavy Bolt Pistols standard, and everyone has the option to take Plasma Pistols
Dedicated Transport Choices:.
3. Open to suggestions to everything else in this category, including Land Raiders LR variants just need a drop in points I'd say, this includes the repulsor and the drop pod
My thoughts are in bold and anything that's not there I either agree with or have no opinion on. I was kinda surprised you never touched on Chapter Tactics. While I Have said that I am against cheap marines, and I think simply making them cheap by itself wont do anything, maybe all of these fixes will help as a whole.
That's because Chapter Tactics are a whole other problem. If we can agree what core issues are with each of the units, we can agree how Chapter Tactics should be handled in the first place.
So I'll touch on your points after work but I just wanted to point out why I did what I did so far.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Universal Fixes:
1. Bolt Weapons either:
. Inflict an additional hit on a 6+ to hit
. Force rerolls of successful saves on a 6+ to wound
Is this for all 'Bolt' weapons, including Hurricane Bolters (Which are already decent). But following that same train of thought I'd rather see less RNG. Perhaps something like "All saves of 5+ must be rerolled". This would make Heavy Bolters more appealing, and normal bolter fire better at clearing hordes
HQ Choices:
1. Captains seem okay as is.
I personally find the reroll aura really uninspired and boring. Give this guy something interesting like "One friendly unit this turn shoots at its base ballistic skill or its modified roll, whichever is better"
Troop Choices:
3. Tactical Marines are 12 points each
. The Marines still get a choice of either Special or Heavy Weapon at 5 men, the opposite choice at 7 men, and then a choice of either at 10 men
I'm also against lower cost TACs, and the special / heavy weapon change still doesn't fix MSU being the superior choice.
A change needs to be done to ATSKNF so that morale doesn't punish it hard (Perhaps something like 'May use highest leadership within 6" regardless of modifier') while also offering a discount on the 10th' marine special weapon
Fast Attack Choices:
1. Assault Marines start at 12 points
. Jump Packs are 2 points each
. Eviscerators are 13 points each
. Repriced Special Pistols will help immensely after the price cuts
Yet again the 'cheaper' TAC problem. Assault marines should have 2 attacks base (As they are losing their new and improved bolters)
2. Bikers are 23 points each
Bikers would still be punished by Plasma and friends. Either 3 Wounds and price hike, or a 'smoke cloud' that gives -1 to hit (Non stacking)
Elite Choices:
2. Vanguard gain WS2+
3. Sternguard gain BS2+
. Special Issue Bolters are 1 point each
4. All Terminator variants are now WS/BS2+
. Terminator variants are 3 points less
I don't agree with non-hero 2+ to hit (let alone 2+ to hit reroll 1's). Terminators however should definitely ignore any -1 penalties for their weapons in Melee and Ranged combat
Heavy Support Choices:
1. Devastators start at 9 points each. We revert to old school Legion standards and every member has to take a Heavy Weapon.
Is this change to stop Bolters from being 'extra wounds'? Cheaper than a normal marine (but costs more because of the weapon). I like this change
2. Hellblasters start at 14 points each
. Hellblasters have Heavy Bolt Pistols standard, and everyone has the option to take Plasma Pistols
Don't know how I feel about this, Hellblasters are already pretty good (Let alone dark angel ones). I think they are fine as is.
Here's my 10 cents, commentary is in quote in red. Note that this is from an outside perspective (I play Necrons and Orks).
I personally think Vanilla marines are in a very hard spot. Is it possible to 'balance' them while there are snowflake chapters that are marines +1?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/01 10:49:16
Universal Fixes:
1. Bolt Weapons either:
. Inflict an additional hit on a 6+ to hit
. Force rerolls of successful saves on a 6+ to wound
Is this for all 'Bolt' weapons, including Hurricane Bolters (Which are already decent). But following that same train of thought I'd rather see less RNG. Perhaps something like "All saves of 5+ must be rerolled". This would make Heavy Bolters more appealing, and normal bolter fire better at clearing hordes
HQ Choices:
1. Captains seem okay as is.
I personally find the reroll aura really uninspired and boring. Give this guy something interesting like "One friendly unit this turn shoots at its base ballistic skill or its modified roll, whichever is better"
Troop Choices:
3. Tactical Marines are 12 points each
. The Marines still get a choice of either Special or Heavy Weapon at 5 men, the opposite choice at 7 men, and then a choice of either at 10 men
I'm also against lower cost TACs, and the special / heavy weapon change still doesn't fix MSU being the superior choice.
A change needs to be done to ATSKNF so that morale doesn't punish it hard (Perhaps something like 'May use highest leadership within 6" regardless of modifier') while also offering a discount on the 10th' marine special weapon
Fast Attack Choices:
1. Assault Marines start at 12 points
. Jump Packs are 2 points each
. Eviscerators are 13 points each
. Repriced Special Pistols will help immensely after the price cuts
Yet again the 'cheaper' TAC problem. Assault marines should have 2 attacks base (As they are losing their new and improved bolters)
2. Bikers are 23 points each
Bikers would still be punished by Plasma and friends. Either 3 Wounds and price hike, or a 'smoke cloud' that gives -1 to hit (Non stacking)
Elite Choices:
2. Vanguard gain WS2+
3. Sternguard gain BS2+
. Special Issue Bolters are 1 point each
4. All Terminator variants are now WS/BS2+
. Terminator variants are 3 points less
I don't agree with non-hero 2+ to hit (let alone 2+ to hit reroll 1's). Terminators however should definitely ignore any -1 penalties for their weapons in Melee and Ranged combat
Heavy Support Choices:
1. Devastators start at 9 points each. We revert to old school Legion standards and every member has to take a Heavy Weapon.
Is this change to stop Bolters from being 'extra wounds'? Cheaper than a normal marine (but costs more because of the weapon). I like this change
2. Hellblasters start at 14 points each
. Hellblasters have Heavy Bolt Pistols standard, and everyone has the option to take Plasma Pistols
Don't know how I feel about this, Hellblasters are already pretty good (Let alone dark angel ones). I think they are fine as is.
Here's my 10 cents, note that this is from an outside perspective (I play Necrons and Orks).
I personally think Vanilla marines are in a very hard spot. Is it possible to 'balance' them while there are snowflake chapters that are marines +1?
Consolidation of the Angels and Vanilla stuff into one codex is what will help this. Only exceptions are:
1. Space Wolves
2. Grey Knights
3. Deathwatch
The only Vanilla chapter you can really argue for not being in the codex would obviously be Black Templars. Most of the equipment options not being shared by 8 of the 9 Founding Chapters is, quote frankly, ridiculous. There are also not many unique units that cannot be represented by other means (Furiosos are just Ironclads for all intents and purposes) and it would be silly that not even successors of those Chapters NEVER used Centurions ever. It's just a ploy to sell more paper than necessary.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
The more I think about it, the more I think one of the things Marines need (but not the only) is to move away from a la carte pricing.
If Tacs/Devs/ASM could take Flamers for 5 pts, Melta for 10, Grav or Plas for 15, and could take MM/HB for 5 pts, PC for 10, LC/ML for 15, and Grav for 20, it'd really help them out, and make them more flavorful. But a Quadlas Pred paying only 15pts per LC wouldn't be good.
Likewise, the Land Raider shouldn't need to pay the same point cost for an Assault Cannon that a "Rhino" pays (as in, the total price difference between a Rhino and an AC Razorback).
Alone, that doesn't fix the codex. But wouldn't it help?
Bharring wrote: The more I think about it, the more I think one of the things Marines need (but not the only) is to move away from a la carte pricing.
If Tacs/Devs/ASM could take Flamers for 5 pts, Melta for 10, Grav or Plas for 15, and could take MM/HB for 5 pts, PC for 10, LC/ML for 15, and Grav for 20, it'd really help them out, and make them more flavorful. But a Quadlas Pred paying only 15pts per LC wouldn't be good.
Likewise, the Land Raider shouldn't need to pay the same point cost for an Assault Cannon that a "Rhino" pays (as in, the total price difference between a Rhino and an AC Razorback).
Alone, that doesn't fix the codex. But wouldn't it help?
I would prefer not giving dual points costs to weapons. The "a la carte" pricing is actually one of the best things about 8E, at least from a consistency standpoint. Having said that, I think Tacs and ASM could be good with "free" options like in prior editions. 2 ASMs could swap pistol/chainsword for Special weapons* or Plasma Pistol/chainsword 5 Tac Marines could swap 1 bolter for a Special* or Heavy, at 10 models another model can swap for another Special or Heavy*
Each datasheet would have a note for Matched play to this affect: "Options markes with an * do not cost points in Matched play" So Tacs get 1 Special for free, but would have to pay for the second at 10 models OR would pay for the 1st Heavy weapon, but get a second for free at 10 models OR 10 models get 1 Special and 1 Heavy for free.
This would basically encourage mixing weapons (as per fluff) and discourage spamming the same weapon. After that you just need to either price down a few options, or make them better. i.e. Heavy 2 MMs and RF2 HBs (Guard can keep them Heavy 3)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/01 13:41:27
